Pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges in USA

[D_JuanAFock]

i find the attempted suicide case more interesting though.

That one made no sense to me.

When a person can't see beyond the next hit how the fuck do you expect that person to see 7 or 8 months down the line, never mind 12 years.

I say again, fuck you.

ok, whatever... you can hate me as much as you like, not gonna change my opinion. I am obviously not going to change yours either.

 

[hsarge]

being young is great and being naive and striving to change the ills of mankind is great. I think most of us go through that phase. But here I will open controversy. Man is an animal. We thought during the 'Enlightenment' that man's reason would conquer all. Then came the French Revolution and Napoleon. We thought industrialization and breakthroughs in medicine would lead the world to a rational world. Then came the butchery WWI and the subsequent WWII with Hitler and Stalin. Then we thought we had ended genocide and then came Pol Pot, Rwanda, and the breakup of Yugoslavia. Mankind stumbles from one disaster to another. individual men do the same and are only fortunate when they miss the calamity that catches another. Some of us have come close to seeing our rawest self and been able to walk back from the edge others have fallen in. Despair and anxiety are all around. Thoreau's quote ' most men lead lives of quiet desperation' is apt. You would wish that all men would act rationally and responsibility. it will never happen. Don't stop striving but don't expect perfection. if that were the case, we might all be in prison, except the person who judged us.

 

[B_Hickboy]

I agree with bigloadz and yes I live in the real world.

Well, it's a good thing you and bigtoads and people like you are not in charge, and that you never will be. There simply aren't enough of you to make a difference. So keep exercising your right to free speech her on the intoerwebz!

 

[D_JuanAFock]

being young is great and being naive and striving to change the ills of mankind is great. I think most of us go through that phase. But here I will open controversy. Man is an animal. We thought during the 'Enlightenment' that man's reason would conquer all. Then came the French Revolution and Napoleon. We thought industrialization and breakthroughs in medicine would lead the world to a rational world. Then came the butchery WWI and the subsequent WWII with Hitler and Stalin. Then we thought we had ended genocide and then came Pol Pot, Rwanda, and the breakup of Yugoslavia. Mankind stumbles from one disaster to another. individual men do the same and are only fortunate when they miss the calamity that catches another. Some of us have come close to seeing our rawest self and been able to walk back from the edge others have fallen in. Despair and anxiety are all around. Thoreau's quote ' most men lead lives of quiet desperation' is apt. You would wish that all men would act rationally and responsibility. it will never happen. Don't stop striving but don't expect perfection. if that were the case, we might all be in prison, except the person who judged us.

Where am I striving to change the ills of mankind? I am discussing my opinion... my thoughts... not proposing a change. You are placing way too much on what I am saying here.

 

[B_Hickboy]

Where am I striving to change the ills of mankind? I am discussing my opinion... my thoughts... not proposing a change. You are placing way too much on what I am saying here.

I'm not, because you're pretty much alone in it.

 

[Incocknito]

well she was doing drugs... they dont just arrest people because they think they might have doing drugs... they do if they know they have

That's like saying they don't charge women with murder if the baby is stillborn

 

[D_JuanAFock]

I'm not, because you're pretty much alone in it.

I wasnt even responding to you, so... whats the point of this post? Oh, right, you just wanted to try and take a jab at me because I have a different opinion from you.

EDIT: This is my last post in this thread btw, I stated my opinion. You can continue to take jabs at me now.

 

[B_Hickboy]

I wasnt even responding to you, so... whats the point of this post? Oh, right, you just wanted to try and take a jab at me because I have a different opinion from you.

EDIT: This is my last post in this thread btw, I stated my opinion. You can continue to take jabs at me now.

I doubt it.

And if I were taking a jab at you, you'd be asking for your mommy right about now.

 

[helgaleena]

This topic has been mentioned here before, on the Politics forum, and I wrote the following horror story in response.

helgaleena healing line : Healing Lines / General /

 

[travis1985]

EDIT: This is my last post in this thread btw, I stated my opinion. You can continue to take jabs at me now.

I'm with you in this thread. There is responsibility. People first demand to have choices and insist that the government mind its own business, then they demand that those choices exist in a vaccum without consequences or effect and that the government babysit them through it.

I'm similar to you. I'm 26. I grew up middle class, was poor for a while, and now make good money. I get that some people are poor the whole time, but no, that doesn't mean they don't have the power to choose some alternative to drugs. Seductive? Yes. Appealing? Yes. There is still a choice made with the first use of a drug.

And I'm done too, because it seems that if you expect people to make good life choices even when they've had it rough, all you'll get here is "fuck you," and then "again, fuck you" a little later. And I only talk to worthy participants who can maintain a shred of dignity and credibility.

 

[Ellebel]

I'm similar to you. I'm 26. I grew up middle class, was poor for a while, and now make good money. I get that some people are poor the whole time, but no, that doesn't mean they don't have the power to choose some alternative to drugs.

What u talk about here is ultimate free will and I 'm pretty sure no such thing excists. In fact: I don't believe free will exists at all. People are bound by biological and cultural boundaries. And there really are people who by nature are more sensitive to addiction then others. And there really are people who by nature make stupid choices. And there are cultures and subcultures that don't have the same views you have.

I assume both you and BigLoadz are white male Americans with a Christian background and I'm sure you had a month or two where you couldn't buy those fancy jeans you wanted, but many of the things you probably take for granted are not out there for everyone else. Things like living in a more or 'enlightened' society, having had a decent education, being raised in a pretty safe community, probably one of your parents having a decent job that makes enough to support your family. Things like that do affect the choices you will make in life. What is a rational choice to you might not be that rational to Pablo from Mexico, Najib from Sierre Leone, Moneesha from the darker sides of New Orleans or Mary-Ann from Alabama.

 

[fire77]

I'm with you in this thread. There is responsibility. People first demand to have choices and insist that the government mind its own business, then they demand that those choices exist in a vaccum without consequences or effect and that the government babysit them through it.

I'm similar to you. I'm 26. I grew up middle class, was poor for a while, and now make good money. I get that some people are poor the whole time, but no, that doesn't mean they don't have the power to choose some alternative to drugs. Seductive? Yes. Appealing? Yes. There is still a choice made with the first use of a drug.

And I'm done too, because it seems that if you expect people to make good life choices even when they've had it rough, all you'll get here is "fuck you," and then "again, fuck you" a little later. And I only talk to worthy participants who can maintain a shred of dignity and credibility.

Travis .. I think you got it wrong.

The replies you mentioned had nothing to do with you living rough or having a normal life, it was about addiction and abortion. Some people relate it to standard of living and some to addiction. The general understanding is addiction and bad choices are much higher in poorer areas and those who live a rough life than people having a secure normal life with good education and family life.

 

[dolfette]

how do you know not to get involved with drugs and druggies?

most likely because your parents told you to keep the hell away from it all.

would you have made the same choices if the parents who were your role models were also taking drugs and hanging with druggies? if snorting coke was as normal as drinking coffee in your family home? if all the adults in your home had taught you from an early age that school & government & social workers & doctors were there to make life harder?

 

[ManofThunder]

how do you know not to get involved with drugs and druggies?

most likely because your parents told you to keep the hell away from it all.

would you have made the same choices if the parents who were your role models were also taking drugs and hanging with druggies? if snorting coke was as normal as drinking coffee in your family home? if all the adults in your home had taught you from an early age that school & government & social workers & doctors were there to make life harder?

Social workers made my life harder - but that's another story. :tongue: My parents had a very light grip on what we (their children) did. They believed in teaching freedom of expression - using your common sense and instinct came first. At times, I could have used more guidance, but on the whole they taught me self-reliance and to deal with my own problems. As a young child, they told me not to answer the door to anyone and those sort of things; but as a teenager they didn't directly oppose or support anything. I was never given a 'birds and the bees' talk, for example. Despite this, I was able to learn about safe-sex and the ways of life and didn't become a drug addict. I didn't really have a role model, now that I think about it. I think there is also a reverse situation to consider, if your parents are taking drugs as you grow-up - you'll see the harm it does and make sure you don't follow their example. You can educate yourself through negative experience; I did anyway. Please excuse my life story - I'm in a Frasier Crane mood.

 

[AlteredEgo]

Whenever this sort of issue arises, there is always a lot of hemming and hawing over the rights of the child that is eventually born. Someone said there was a middle ground between a woman being considered a living incubator and an autonomous being. There is not. Either she has autonomy, or her freedom is subverted for the parasitic being in her abdomen.

It all sounds so simple when certain people say it: Either stop taking drugs, don't get pregnant, or have an abortion; children have the right not to have to live with defects and disease, right? Consider this: You have the choice to live, but you must accept a handicap. Or, you could never know life at all. Perhaps some would prefer to never have been born. Perhaps some are just thankful to be alive despite the odds.

This type of legislation is always about dehumanizing and subjugating grown women.

 

[B_prettyswinggirl]

By the definition of the article I read, nearly every woman I know who has had a misscarriage or stillbirth or early infant death could be prosecuted. I never smoked, drank or did anything to harm myself, but at 29 weeks pregnant found out that my daughter had a heart condition called Tetrology of Fallot. I was placed on valium and occasionally ambien to combat the anxiety of what I knew we were going to face. I had the misfortune of having my water break when at my OB appt which was in the hospital that couldn't handle her special needs. I delivered so fast they couldn't transport me to the hospital she was supposed to be born at. I never got to hold her alive.

So because of the Valuim use and the Ambien use I guess that makes me a drug user and subject to prosecution under the law? I made it through her funeral and then quietly tried to kill myself. So no, there is no way these women were in their right minds and should have been prosecuted. They need help, not mindless ridicule by men who will never understand the guilt that we who have gone through something like this feel. She would have been 10 this year and I think about her everyday and still feel the guilt of being in the wrong place and having accepted the Dr's prescriptions of valium and ambien.

 

[redz_rule]

By the definition of the article I read, nearly every woman I know who has had a misscarriage or stillbirth or early infant death could be prosecuted. I never smoked, drank or did anything to harm myself, but at 29 weeks pregnant found out that my daughter had a heart condition called Tetrology of Fallot. I was placed on valium and occasionally ambien to combat the anxiety of what I knew we were going to face. I had the misfortune of having my water break when at my OB appt which was in the hospital that couldn't handle her special needs. I delivered so fast they couldn't transport me to the hospital she was supposed to be born at. I never got to hold her alive.

So because of the Valuim use and the Ambien use I guess that makes me a drug user and subject to prosecution under the law? I made it through her funeral and then quietly tried to kill myself. So no, there is no way these women were in their right minds and should have been prosecuted. They need help, not mindless ridicule by men who will never understand the guilt that we who have gone through something like this feel. She would have been 10 this year and I think about her everyday and still feel the guilt of being in the wrong place and having accepted the Dr's prescriptions of valium and ambien.

Absolutely heartbreaking.

*Hugs*

 

[D_Rosalind Mussell]

By the definition of the article I read, nearly every woman I know who has had a misscarriage or stillbirth or early infant death could be prosecuted. I never smoked, drank or did anything to harm myself, but at 29 weeks pregnant found out that my daughter had a heart condition called Tetrology of Fallot. I was placed on valium and occasionally ambien to combat the anxiety of what I knew we were going to face. I had the misfortune of having my water break when at my OB appt which was in the hospital that couldn't handle her special needs. I delivered so fast they couldn't transport me to the hospital she was supposed to be born at. I never got to hold her alive.

So because of the Valuim use and the Ambien use I guess that makes me a drug user and subject to prosecution under the law? I made it through her funeral and then quietly tried to kill myself. So no, there is no way these women were in their right minds and should have been prosecuted. They need help, not mindless ridicule by men who will never understand the guilt that we who have gone through something like this feel. She would have been 10 this year and I think about her everyday and still feel the guilt of being in the wrong place and having accepted the Dr's prescriptions of valium and ambien.

Thank you for telling your story. I'm so sorry that happened to you and your family. It's a perfect illustration of the intricacies women face while pregnant. There truly is no one size fits all.

:hug:

 

[1kmb1]

i found this bit of the link most telling.



violent men killing unborns is ok.
apparently you're only accountable if you're a woman.

thats totally cherry picked.

the man was the only one "convicted" while the women were "arrested"

ive heard of quite a few cases where someone was charged with killing an unborn fetus.

Oklahoma Man Charged With Killing Pregnant Woman, Unborn Baby | LifeNews.com

Woman Accused of Killing Unborn Fetus After Kneeing Pregnant Aunt - ktla.com

that still counts right?

i think putting a woman on trial after she had miscarriage, because it "might" be her fault, is so fucked up that we would need a new phrase to accurately describe how fucked up it is. (id like to nominate, "Franklin'ed up" in honor of Georgia state Representative Bobby Franklin. but we can figure that out later)

Anti-Abortion Georgia Lawmaker Proposes Law That Would Criminalize Miscarriages

 

[travis1985]

I assume both you and BigLoadz are white male Americans with a Christian background and I'm sure you had a month or two where you couldn't buy those fancy jeans you wanted, but many of the things you probably take for granted are not out there for everyone else.

See how you make the assumption that we might think we've had it rough, but really we've always been privileged rich preppies who, at worst, went without a luxury or two once or twice? Anything to avoid (a) processing that we might have a leg to stand on, and (b) not being able to sweep our thoughts under the rug. That's why this conversation isn't worth investing in for us. You don't know me or what my background is. If I told you, you would proceed to assume that I was exaggerating in order to create credibility or that, regardless of my assurances to the contrary, I had a small fortune in the bank somewhere that I could have fallen back on if it was really that bad, or whatever else it took to be able to write my thoughts off. I know this because if my telling you that I've known poverty isn't enough to convince you that maybe I have, there's nothing I could say that you wouldn't justify away in your mind.

When you made what you knew was an unfounded assumption about my background, you refused to consider another point of view.