Prepare for healthcare abuse to the Nth degree

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Star, you've come to a conclusion and decided what you're going to believe regardless of how accurate your conclusion is. Somebody convinced you there's, "a huge influx of patients," when you've not brought any evidence of your claim to the forum. Was it Rush or Sean or Ann who made this spurious statement?

Remember that the sole point of commercial mass media is to get you to buy products or support particular for-profit entities, like insurance companies. They're really the leeches in the entire system because they provide no added benefit to the system. Insurance companies these days do nothing but try to minimize health care costs. That's all they do and they do a very poor job of that. Policyholders, usually an employer, pays to the insurance company what the insurance company estimates it will pay out in claims. That means policyholders are self-insured. Insurance companies make their money by investing the money they receive from policy holders, just like a bank does. That's why if you're an employer shopping for health insurance, all the policies you compare cost about the same. Because there is no profit in premiums any longer, companies like AIG get into trouble when the market dives despite the fact they're charging their customers premiums.

I really, really, urge you to investigate this entire situation because you are woefully uninformed on this issue. Sometimes you're right, sometimes you argue your points well, sometimes you're on-target even if I disagree with you. Not this time. My entire family works or has worked in insurance and so have I. My step-father worked for Marsh & McLennan, the world's largest insurance broker, as a senior VP. He sold giant health insurance policies to Fortune 500 companies for over 50 years. My uncle has a small town independent insurance agency. I worked for CIGNA in the health insurance division. My father worked in IT solution engineering for insurance companies and worked prior to that as a public entity health insurance broker for Travelers. My mom worked as Director of Development for two hospital systems. On top of that I have oodles of relatives and friends who are doctors of all kinds.

I know more about health insurance and our health care system than the a whole hell of a lot of other people. When all these people tell you the system doesn't work, from insurance brokers to doctors and hospital administrators, then guess what? The system likely does not work. This is backed by policy statements from the AMA, JCHA, and even health insurers themselves not to mention the non-lobbyist not-for-profit advocacy groups.

It's no secret I'm a poster boy for the failure of the American health care system so not only am I aware of the issues, I'm living them. Had I lived in any other western industrialized nation, I'd likely not have cancer and not cost you, a taxpayer, (at last check) close to $250,000 in care. I will definitely end-up costing you well over a million. I'd also be able to work in some capacity and not be stuck on the public dole for what may well be the rest of my life because my condition precludes me from getting private insurance (even state-sponsored low cost plans) due to pre-existing condition limitations.

Employers want out of providing health insurance. So do employees. So do doctors. So do the uninsured. The only people who want to keep the current system are the health insurance companies because they make a profit by denying you care while you pay them for the privilege. This despite the fact the very same insurance companies provide low-cost, high-value policies to people in countries which have nationalized health care. Yes! You can buy, in fact most employers provide, private health insurance policies in countries which have nationalized health care. These policies provide coverage for non-essential care, including some cosmetic procedures, private hospitals, dental, and vision. These policies are ridiculously affordable because they don't have to provide catastrophic care coverage. They don't "manage costs" don't require pre-authorizations, don't require high deductibles or only pay, "reasonable and customary," amounts because insurance companies make money on these policies the way they used to make money on them here.

Investigate and learn how the entire system works because, frankly, defending ours is impossible.
 

B_starinvestor

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Star, you've come to a conclusion and decided what you're going to believe regardless of how accurate your conclusion is. Somebody convinced you there's, "a huge influx of patients," when you've not brought any evidence of your claim to the forum. Was it Rush or Sean or Ann who made this spurious statement?....

.

I understand that the current system doesn't work. I'm acutely aware of that fact.

However, shuffling around tax structure, etc. so that more people are eligible doesn't fix the core problem; and that is that there is way, way too much pent-up demand for medical treatments/procedures.

Opening the floodgates will be disastrous unless we undertake a MASSIVE expansion of facilities and professionals.

Even systems that many here claim work, are far from effective.

Check out this clip from the LA Times:

Simply saying that people have health insurance is meaningless. Many countries provide universal insurance but deny critical procedures to patients who need them. Britain's Department of Health reported in 2006 that at any given time, nearly 900,000 Britons are waiting for admission to National Health Service hospitals, and shortages force the cancellation of more than 50,000 operations each year. In Sweden, the wait for heart surgery can be as long as 25 weeks, and the average wait for hip replacement surgery is more than a year. Many of these individuals suffer chronic pain, and judging by the numbers, some will probably die awaiting treatment. In a 2005 ruling of the Canadian Supreme Court, Chief Justice Beverly McLachlin wrote that "access to a waiting list is not access to healthcare."

25 week waits for heart surgery? Cancellations of 50,000 operations per year? Is that your idea of effective delivery of healthcare?

Obviously they don't have it figured out either.

throw this into the mix: Our baby boomer generation is the biggest generation in American history - heading into their 60's - the paramount age of health treatment. Our demographics are more reliant on healthcare than any country in Europe (their baby boomer generation is 8 - 10 years behind us, because it occurred after Europe was rebuilt following WWII)

Do I need to provide statistics on baby boomers? Or does that alone give credence to my point about an influx?
 

Industrialsize

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I understand that the current system doesn't work. I'm acutely aware of that fact.

However, shuffling around tax structure, etc. so that more people are eligible doesn't fix the core problem; and that is that there is way, way too much pent-up demand for medical treatments/procedures.

Opening the floodgates will be disastrous unless we undertake a MASSIVE expansion of facilities and professionals.

Even systems that many here claim work, are far from effective.

Check out this clip from the LA Times:

Simply saying that people have health insurance is meaningless. Many countries provide universal insurance but deny critical procedures to patients who need them. Britain's Department of Health reported in 2006 that at any given time, nearly 900,000 Britons are waiting for admission to National Health Service hospitals, and shortages force the cancellation of more than 50,000 operations each year. In Sweden, the wait for heart surgery can be as long as 25 weeks, and the average wait for hip replacement surgery is more than a year. Many of these individuals suffer chronic pain, and judging by the numbers, some will probably die awaiting treatment. In a 2005 ruling of the Canadian Supreme Court, Chief Justice Beverly McLachlin wrote that "access to a waiting list is not access to healthcare."

25 week waits for heart surgery? Cancellations of 50,000 operations per year? Is that your idea of effective delivery of healthcare?

Obviously they don't have it figured out either.

throw this into the mix: Our baby boomer generation is the biggest generation in American history - heading into their 60's - the paramount age of health treatment. Our demographics are more reliant on healthcare than any country in Europe (their baby boomer generation is 8 - 10 years behind us, because it occurred after Europe was rebuilt following WWII)

Do I need to provide statistics on baby boomers? Or does that alone give credence to my point about an influx?
It gives no credence to your assertation that there are millions of people waiting to flood the health care system with their,and I quote, "SILLY" problems.
 

mikeyh9in

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SI... the only solution I hear you spouting is let the poor die and the rich take up all the hospital beds with *their* silly problems.
That is not the America I want to live in.

I understand that the current system doesn't work. I'm acutely aware of that fact.

However, shuffling around tax structure, etc. so that more people are eligible doesn't fix the core problem; and that is that there is way, way too much pent-up demand for medical treatments/procedures.

Opening the floodgates will be disastrous unless we undertake a MASSIVE expansion of facilities and professionals.

Even systems that many here claim work, are far from effective.

Check out this clip from the LA Times:

Simply saying that people have health insurance is meaningless. Many countries provide universal insurance but deny critical procedures to patients who need them. Britain's Department of Health reported in 2006 that at any given time, nearly 900,000 Britons are waiting for admission to National Health Service hospitals, and shortages force the cancellation of more than 50,000 operations each year. In Sweden, the wait for heart surgery can be as long as 25 weeks, and the average wait for hip replacement surgery is more than a year. Many of these individuals suffer chronic pain, and judging by the numbers, some will probably die awaiting treatment. In a 2005 ruling of the Canadian Supreme Court, Chief Justice Beverly McLachlin wrote that "access to a waiting list is not access to healthcare."

25 week waits for heart surgery? Cancellations of 50,000 operations per year? Is that your idea of effective delivery of healthcare?

Obviously they don't have it figured out either.

throw this into the mix: Our baby boomer generation is the biggest generation in American history - heading into their 60's - the paramount age of health treatment. Our demographics are more reliant on healthcare than any country in Europe (their baby boomer generation is 8 - 10 years behind us, because it occurred after Europe was rebuilt following WWII)

Do I need to provide statistics on baby boomers? Or does that alone give credence to my point about an influx?
 
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Would you rather those boomers be treated in a more efficient system or Medicare? They've largely lost their gap insurance and will be relying on Medicare exclusively -- an already publicly funded system that frequently pays under true cost of care. If they're veterans, they'll have Tricare as their gap insurance but that too is publicly funded.

We have multiple public health care systems, each acting redundantly with different rules and claim requirements and payment schemes. A single payer system, just by combining all of these and Medicaid, would save us billions. That the insurance companies have wormed their way into these plans is absurd and disgraceful because they only exist to make a profit by adding to costs without providing care of any sort. The government, despite its shortcomings, is not a for-profit entity and actually manages Medicare and Tricare fairly well as far as patients are concerned.

The upshot is that a socialized system will cost us less and provide more care for more people with an emphasis on prevention thus reducing costs even more. Don't forget too that a socialized system may cost us more in taxes, but will also lessen the costs of employees for employers and lessen costs for employees and the self-insured and uninsured themselves because the cost of care will be spread as broadly as possible.

Time and again the naysayers point to the UK as if they were the only country doing this. I say look at France, Germany, Italy, Austria, Japan (which also has a huge aging population with a small young population), and The Netherlands. They all manage to get it right and then some. Britain's NHS doesn't work well and Canada's system is generally good but is hampered by having to provide expensive resources over a wide and sparsely populated geographic area; a problem we don't have.
 

B_starinvestor

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SI... the only solution I hear you spouting is let the poor die and the rich take up all the hospital beds with *their* silly problems.
That is not the America I want to live in.

Can you read?

Seriously.

We need more beds, more docs, more nurses, more square footage, more equipment.

I don't care if they admit chipmunks and antelopes; just carve out enough room to provide the care. You saw what happened when they tried to jam 19 illegal immigrants into an SUV, right?

That's my point.
 

mikeyh9in

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Yes Star... I am saying that some doctors actually enjoy taking care of people and getting them well.

I think more people would be far happier if they did something for a living that they enjoyed -- I say take the money motivator out of the equation. I know people know this but, money does not equal happiness -- doing what you enjoy doing does. The money driven doctors are the worse.

If money is *your* motivator, than I feel sorry for you -- you must be a very sad person.

Where do you think this HUGE influx of patience are right now? If you have insurance right now... why aren't you at your doctor making up illinesses?

You are just spouting the Limbaugh bullshit. FUD.. Fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

This is another conservative cause propagating bigotry and hate... the good news is that we have the votes to ignore the ignorance.


Why would anyone want 8 years of additional education and 100's of thousands in student loans....because they are 'nice?'

Of course, a major consideration is good money. Sorry.



Liberal talking point. I don't care how many payers there are, the problem is the HUGE influx of patients; and yes - there will be millions with silly health issues.

Also, millions that have been holding off on treatments due to the expense. These millions will pour in as well.

Everyone is jumping on me as if I'm saying 'leave the system alone.'

I am not saying that. I repeat: I am not saying that.

I am saying the Obama and the other clowns that are crafting this change....HAVE to account for this new surge of patients; and they are making no provisions as such.



Yes.

Again, who are you arguing? I have stipulated that the current system sucks.
 

mikeyh9in

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Star, When was the last time you were in a hospital?? Do you even know anything about modern medical care??

Current hospital occupancy rates are *decreasing* due to the increase in out-patience procedures. What use to be a 3 to 4 night stay in the hospital usually now only requires 1 night.

Like I said earlier, your ignorance is showing.

Can you read?

Seriously.

We need more beds, more docs, more nurses, more square footage, more equipment.

I don't care if they admit chipmunks and antelopes; just carve out enough room to provide the care. You saw what happened when they tried to jam 19 illegal immigrants into an SUV, right?

That's my point.
 

B_starinvestor

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Yes Star... I am saying that some doctors actually enjoy taking care of people and getting them well.

And teachers enjoy educating our youth; but they don't go to school for 8 years and rack up $250k in student loans to do it.

Doctors want the good life.

If what you say is true, then why do doctors live in mansions, have yachts and fancy cars? After all, the money doesn't matter to them, right?

I think more people would be far happier if they did something for a living that they enjoyed -- I say take the money motivator out of the equation. I know people know this but, money does not equal happiness -- doing what you enjoy doing does. The money driven doctors are the worse.

Money-driven doctors are the worst? Huh? The doctors that make the most money are those that are most skilled at their trade; and in the most demand.

Do you think a doctor goes into the office in the morning and says, "Okay, i'm going to try and sell 24 angioplasties today." No, I'm sorry, that is not how it works.

Wake up, Mike

If money is *your* motivator, than I feel sorry for you -- you must be a very sad person.

It is *a* motivator. Not *the* motivator.

Where do you think this HUGE influx of patience are right now? If you have insurance right now... why aren't you at your doctor making up illinesses?

they are all among us. Many within the ENORMOUS baby boomer generation. Many that are currently unemployed and have no access to healthcare, but have nagging and serious medical issues. Many are immigrants, many are self employed that cannot afford health insurance, and many are simply abusers of the system that will exploit any and all public programs.
 

mikeyh9in

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Star,

Tenet Physicians Settle Case Over Unnecessary Heart Procedures at Redding Medical Center, USA

Doctors performing unnecessary heart surgery.

So, yes, I do believe the money motivated doctors are doing exactly that.

The doctors *I* know live comfortably, but are not living in mansions and sailing yachts. Do you live in a Dynasty fantasy land?

-Mike

And teachers enjoy educating our youth; but they don't go to school for 8 years and rack up $250k in student loans to do it.

Doctors want the good life.

If what you say is true, then why do doctors live in mansions, have yachts and fancy cars? After all, the money doesn't matter to them, right?



Money-driven doctors are the worst? Huh? The doctors that make the most money are those that are most skilled at their trade; and in the most demand.

Do you think a doctor goes into the office in the morning and says, "Okay, i'm going to try and sell 24 angioplasties today." No, I'm sorry, that is not how it works.

Wake up, Mike



It is *a* motivator. Not *the* motivator.



they are all among us. Many within the ENORMOUS baby boomer generation. Many that are currently unemployed and have no access to healthcare, but have nagging and serious medical issues. Many are immigrants, many are self employed that cannot afford health insurance, and many are simply abusers of the system that will exploit any and all public programs.
 

mikeyh9in

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The only people making money today in healthcare are the insurance companies' executives that are pulling in more and more dollars by denying more and more people critical healthcare.

And teachers enjoy educating our youth; but they don't go to school for 8 years and rack up $250k in student loans to do it.

Doctors want the good life.

If what you say is true, then why do doctors live in mansions, have yachts and fancy cars? After all, the money doesn't matter to them, right?



Money-driven doctors are the worst? Huh? The doctors that make the most money are those that are most skilled at their trade; and in the most demand.

Do you think a doctor goes into the office in the morning and says, "Okay, i'm going to try and sell 24 angioplasties today." No, I'm sorry, that is not how it works.

Wake up, Mike



It is *a* motivator. Not *the* motivator.



they are all among us. Many within the ENORMOUS baby boomer generation. Many that are currently unemployed and have no access to healthcare, but have nagging and serious medical issues. Many are immigrants, many are self employed that cannot afford health insurance, and many are simply abusers of the system that will exploit any and all public programs.
 
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The only people making money today in healthcare are the insurance companies' executives that are pulling in more and more dollars by denying more and more people critical healthcare.

And jacking-up prices on malpractice insurance to the point of driving whole specialties like obstetrics into a state of endangerment.
 

D_Tully Tunnelrat

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And jacking-up prices on malpractice insurance to the point of driving whole specialties like obstetrics into a state of endangerment.

Jas, very sorry to learn of your personal circumstances. I hope your condition improves. Your experience, and your families, in this area makes you the best person qualified to speak to this issue, but everything I have read regarding med-mal cases, indicates that it increases premiums by 4-5% a year, not the 15-20% increases insurance companies are charging doctors. Do you have better info?

No one likes a lawyer till you need one, but without any form of redress from the courts, and in a loose regulatory environment, what other recourse do wronged patients have? I'm not an advocate, just trying to understand how to re-balance the equation. Spark brought up this point as well.

Here's an interesting article discussing the Canadian vs. American model. Granted the WSJ editorial supports some of SI claims, but it seems equally clear Obama is not promoting a Canadian option here.

WSJ publishes op-ed falsely equating "ObamaCare" with Canadian "single-payer" system | Media Matters for America

Apparently even the Canadians no longer like their system, but since their system is unlike any of the European ones, they have many alternative models to choose from.

For solutions on health care, look to Europe, not the U.S.

The variances in Euro-systems is really interesting, and provides great "real world" examples, ones which one would hope the US is smart enough to learn from.

The most interesting to me, and one that ranks highly in terms of performance is the Swiss model, where private health insurance has been mandatory since 1995.

Premiums are not risk-related or linked to income, but are set on a per-capita basis with weightings for age of entry into a fund, regional cost differences, and sex.

The Swiss gov. subsidizes poor people by paying a portion of their premiums.

Switzerland has a risk adjusted system so that all insurers are required, based upon the health risk profile of their group, to pay into a gov. fund. Higher risk groups pay more.

Insurers set their own premiums; each plan varies from another; there is no gov. mandated std. of care; each plan requires a copayment, as mandated by the gov., up to about $500 a year.

Co-payments cover about 1/3 of all medical expenses. The Swiss gov. does provide subsidies to higher risk groups, as well as the poor.

The big downside to this model is out of pocket cost for the poor, but if properly subsidized, it poses an interesting solution, one which more closely resembles the US private system, but with healthcare for all.
 

D_Sir Fitzwilly Wankheimer III

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And teachers enjoy educating our youth; but they don't go to school for 8 years and rack up $250k in student loans to do it.

Doctors want the good life.

If what you say is true, then why do doctors live in mansions, have yachts and fancy cars? After all, the money doesn't matter to them, right?



Money-driven doctors are the worst? Huh? The doctors that make the most money are those that are most skilled at their trade; and in the most demand.

Do you think a doctor goes into the office in the morning and says, "Okay, i'm going to try and sell 24 angioplasties today." No, I'm sorry, that is not how it works.

Wake up, Mike



It is *a* motivator. Not *the* motivator.



they are all among us. Many within the ENORMOUS baby boomer generation. Many that are currently unemployed and have no access to healthcare, but have nagging and serious medical issues. Many are immigrants, many are self employed that cannot afford health insurance, and many are simply abusers of the system that will exploit any and all public programs.


we need a few more money motivated people rather a bunch of losers that feel they are entitled to everything simply for showing up to work. There are much easier ways to make a buck than being a doctor. For example suing you doctor.
 
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In France, doctors have their education paid for by the government. They don't leave school with giant debts to service. Instead, they are required to be part of the national health system for a number of years. Even after those years have passed, however, over 90% of doctors remain within the public system even if they also accept private paying patients.
 

B_VinylBoy

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we need a few more money motivated people rather a bunch of losers that feel they are entitled to everything simply for showing up to work. There are much easier ways to make a buck than being a doctor. For example suing you doctor.

That was actually kinda funny. :biggrin: