Present and Future Mothers: Circumcise your sons or not? WITH POLL

Circumcize or not?


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D_Kay_Sarah_Sarah

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I always thought i would because every man i had been with had been cut and i had heard it was easier maintiance to look after and also visually nicer..HOWEVER now i have been with a uncut man i see there is no reason at all to get a child circumsized (unless medical).

I like to think my child (if ever) will be smart enough to know how to take of his own basic hygenic habits so it wont creat any infection problems later on..

Also now i love an uncut cock, so much more fun to play with :tongue:
 

baseball99

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Lordpendragon said:
Baseball - Do you have kids?

that would be a little much to juggle at my age and at this point in my life.....waiting for life and my job to stabilize a bit before i take that step......why?
 

Lordpendragon

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baseball99 said:
that would be a little much to juggle at my age and at this point in my life.....waiting for life and my job to stabilize a bit before i take that step......why?

Well, with due respect, because I can see that you post with all good intent, nothing quite gets on the tits of parents as much as people who don't have kids, telling them how to be good parents. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't have an opinion, rather that you should ackowledge that people with hands on experience, have the reality end of things.
 

B_dxjnorto

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baseball99 said:
penile cancer is very very rare but when it does occur it is almost 100% in uncircumcised men
Not true, penis cancers nearly always occur on the glans. But since it is so rare, why are we even talking about it? How many babies would you cut to save one hypothetical man from penis cancer, which is a treatable disease of old age?
 

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Lordpendragon said:
Well, with due respect, because I can see that you post with all good intent, nothing quite gets on the tits of parents as much as people who don't have kids, telling them how to be good parents. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't have an opinion, rather that you should ackowledge that people with hands on experience, have the reality end of things.

re-read my posts. I wasnt telling her how to raise her kids i was raising an interesting point.....I thought i made that pretty clear but apparently not.....it was as if someone said "I HATE Florida" and I said "without love there cant be hate".....it was just a random comment on my part and dont think i was telling her how to raise her kids.....but i will disagree with you, in my profession every single day i counsel parents on how to raise their kids (in relation to what i do).....and they come seeking advice. Do you know how hard it is to convince some mothers that fast food every night is not appropriate for their 40+lb overweight kid?
 

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dxjnorto said:
Not true, penis cancers nearly always occur on the glans. But since it is so rare, why are we even talking about it? How many babies would you cut to save one hypothetical man from penis cancer, which is a treatable disease of old age?

Actually, i really enjoy how you teach me medicine :rolleyes: .....i wont argue, i'll just post primary research. But thank you, bc lookin up the info showed me that it is actually increasing in prevalence and not stagnant

J Am Acad Dermatol. 2006 Mar;54(3):369-91; quiz 391-4.[URL="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query/egifs/http:--linkinghub.elsevier.com-ihub-images-PubMedLink.gif"]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query/egifs/http:--linkinghub.elsevier.com-ihub-images-PubMedLink.gif[/URL] Links
Penile cancer.
Department of Dermatology, University of Catania School of Medicine, Catania, Italy.
Penile cancer, while relatively rare in the western world, remains a disease with severe morbidity and mortality, not to mention significant psychological ramifications. Furthermore, the disease is observed with dramatically increased incidence in other parts of the world. A review of the literature has shown that the overwhelming majority of penile cancers are in situ or invasive squamous cell carcinomas, including a well-differentiated variant, verrucous carcinoma. Important predisposing factors are lack of circumcision, human papillomavirus infections, and penile lichen sclerosus, although other factors have occasionally been reported as well. Prevention, careful monitoring of patients at risk, and early diagnosis are essential to reduce the incidence of penile carcinoma and to provide a definitive cure. Public health measures, such as prophylactic use of circumcision, have proved successful but are controversial. Also, no standard therapeutic guidelines as to the best treatment strategy according to different stages, including efficacy of conservative nonsurgical modalities and indications for lymph nodal dissection, are available so far. It is common opinion that penile cancer is an emerging problem that deserves further investigations, and physicians, especially dermatologists, should be aware of this issue. LEARNING OBJECTIVE: At the completion of this learning activity, participants should be familiar with penile carcinoma, its risk factors, its clinical and histologic presentation, and the treatments currently available for its management.

And as I was saying circumcision is not necessarily protective of penile cancer but MOST penile cancers (when corrected for number circumcised/uncircumcised) are in uncircumcised me.....its a relationship and not necessary a cause
Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd. 2005 Oct 29;149(44):2450-3. Links
Comment in: Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd. 2005 Oct 29;149(44):2446-9. [The foreskin and squamous-cell carcinoma of the penis]

[Article in Dutch]
Nederlands Kanker Instituut-Antoni van Leeuwenhoek Ziekenhuis, afd. Urologie, Plesmanlaan 121, 1066 CX Amsterdam. s.horenblas@nki.nl
The incidence of penile cancer is low in men who have been circumcised at infancy. It is unknown whether a causative relationship exists between circumcision and the substantially reduced incidence of penile cancer. A normal foreskin has no known aetiological role in the development of penile cancer. A narrow, non-retractable foreskin predisposes the patient to infection and contributes to the development of penile cancer, together with the known risk factors of smoking and human papillomavirus infection. Circumcision represents a complex of social and behavioural factors. Analyses have not taken all of these factors into consideration. It is unlikely that circumcision itself protects against the development of penile cancer.
PMID: 16285359 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

BJU Int. 2002 Sep;90(5):498-506.[URL="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query/egifs/http:--www.blackwell-synergy.com-templates-jsp-_synergy-images-synergy_linkout.gif"]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query/egifs/http:--www.blackwell-synergy.com-templates-jsp-_synergy-images-synergy_linkout.gif[/URL] Links
Common skin disorders of the penis.
Department of Dermatology, University of Basel, Switzerland.
Diseases of the male genitalia range from infectious lesions to inflammatory and neoplastic conditions, including many genital manifestations of more general skin diseases. This review highlights the clinical features, diagnosis and treatment of the most common dermatoses of the male genitalia. Herpes genitalis and infections caused by human papillomavirus (HPV) are increasing, particularly in young sexually active people. Herpes simplex virus infection is the commonest infectious cause of genital ulceration, with evidence that many infections are asymptomatic. HPV infection may be latent, subclinical and clinical. The most common causal agents for condyloma acuminatum are low-risk HPV 6 and 11; high-risk HPV types 16 and 18 are associated with premalignant and malignant lesions. Treatment for genital warts remains unsatisfactory; recurrences are common. Imiquimod, a new topical immunotherapeutic agent, which induces interferon and other cytokines, has the potential to be a first-line therapy for genital warts. Scabies and pediculosis are transmitted by skin-to-skin contact and sexual transmission is common, with the penis and scrotum favourite locations for scabious lesions. Oral ivermectin, a highly active antiparasitic drug, is likely to be the treatment of choice, but until approval is granted it should be reserved for special forms of scabies. Common skin diseases, e.g. psoriasis and lichen planus, may have an atypical appearance in the genital area. The typical psoriatic scale is usually not apparent because of moisture and maceration. Allergic contact dermatitis of the genital area may result from condoms, lubricants, feminine hygiene deodorant spray and spermicides. More often, contact dermatitis is irritant, resulting from persistent moisture and maceration. Lichen sclerosus is a chronic inflammatory disease that occurs as atrophic white patches on the glans penis and foreskin. The penile form is a common cause of phimosis in uncircumcised men; involvement of the urethral meatus may lead to progressive meatal stenosis. Plasma cell balanitis is a benign, idiopathic condition presenting as a solitary, smooth, shiny, red-orange plaque of the glans and prepuce of a middle-aged to older man. Squamous cell carcinoma (SCC) in situ, e.g. erythroplasia of Queyrat and Bowen's disease, cannot be excluded clinically; their apparent clinical benignity may lead to lengthy periods of misdiagnosis and biopsy is required to confirm the diagnosis. SCC is the most common malignancy of the penis and the role of oncogenic HPV-types has been also established in SCC of the penis. Prevention of SCC of the penis presupposes an identification of risk factors, early detection of all pre-cancerous lesions and treatment of phimosis.
 

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Am J Surg Pathol. 2003 Jul;27(7):994-8.[URL="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query/egifs/http:--www.lwwonline.com-pt-pt-core-template-journal-lwwgateway-images-pmlogo.gif"]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query/egifs/http:--www.lwwonline.com-pt-pt-core-template-journal-lwwgateway-images-pmlogo.gif[/URL] Links
Preputial variability and preferential association of long phimotic foreskins with penile cancer: an anatomic comparative study of types of foreskin in a general population and cancer patients.

Department of Pathology, New York University Medical Center, New York, NY 10016, USA.
Difficulty in foreskin retraction and phimosis are risk factors for penile carcinoma that may be related to the anatomically variable length of the foreskin. This observation has stimulated us to postulate the hypothesis that foreskin length is related to penile cancer. To compare the foreskin in the general population and patients with penile cancer, an anatomic classification of foreskin was designed. We examined the foreskin of 215 uncircumcised males without cancer (age range 15-93 years) and the foreskin of 23 patients with cancer (age range 31-90 years).

Coexistence of a long foreskin and phimosis may explain the high incidence of penile cancer in some geographic regions. To better document these findings, a comparison of foreskin types in countries with high and low incidence of penile cancer will be interesting. However, because phimosis appears to be a major factor, the presence of long foreskin may be a necessary but not a sufficient condition for cancer development. For these reasons we support preventive circumcision in patients with long and phimotic foreskins living in high-risk areas. Cancers not related to long foreskins and phimosis may be causally different.

Int J Cancer. 2005 Sep 10;116(4):606-16.[URL="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query/egifs/http:--www3.interscience.wiley.com-images-wiley_interscience_134x30.gif"]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query/egifs/http:--www3.interscience.wiley.com-images-wiley_interscience_134x30.gif[/URL] Links
Penile cancer: importance of circumcision, human papillomavirus and smoking in in situ and invasive disease.


Program in Epidemiology, Division of Public Health Sciences, Fred
Few population-based case-control studies have assessed etiologic factors for penile cancer. Past infection with high-risk human papillomavirus (HPV) is a known risk factor for penile cancer
Men not circumcised during childhood were at increased risk of invasive (OR = 2.3, 95% CI 1.3-4.1) but not in situ (OR = 1.1, 95% CI 0.6-1.8) penile cancer. Approximately 35% of men with penile cancer who had not been circumcised in childhood reported a history of phimosis compared to 7.6% of controls (OR = 7.4, 95% CI 3.7-15.0). Penile conditions such as tear, rash and injury were associated with increased risk of disease. Among men not circumcised in childhood, phimosis was strongly associated with development of invasive penile cancer (OR = 11.4, 95% CI 5.0-25.9). When we restricted our analysis to men who did not have phimosis, the risk of invasive penile cancer associated with not having been circumcised in childhood was not elevated (OR = 0.5, 95% CI 0.1-2.5). Cigarette smoking was associated with a 4.5-fold risk (95% CI 2.0-10.1) of invasive penile cancer. HPV DNA was detected in 79.8% of tumor specimens, and 69.1% of tumors were HPV16-positive. The high percentage of HPV DNA-positive tumors in our study is consistent with a strong association between HPV infection and the development of penile cancer regardless of circumcision status. Circumcision in early childhood may help prevent penile cancer by eliminating phimosis, a significant risk factor for the disease.
 

AlteredEgo

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Desmond_decker said:
Good for you. Of cousre this brings with it an incresed chance of penile cancer, HPV infection of partners. HPV infection is a necessary factor in the development of nearly all cases of cervical cancer
In as much as there is more skin, okay. I have heard this argument before. It is bulloks. What you are saying is that ALL men are born with an increased risk of spreading disease which must be surgically corrected. It's a garbage claim. Further, why is this comment directed at me? The only part of my comment directed at you was the fact that you did not read the parameters and have skewed the results of this survey.

EDIT: I thought I said this but I omitted it:

All of the studies I have ever seen about circucision and its relationship to HPV and cervical cancer are retroactive studies. This means they began from a condition og cervical cancer, and work backwards, which neccesarily involves certain assumptions, and assumptions ARE NOT science.
 
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baseball99

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BronxBombshell said:
In as much as there is more skin, okay. I have heard this argument before. It is bulloks. What you are saying is that ALL men are born with an increased risk of spreading disease which must be surgically corrected. It's a garbage claim. Further, why is this comment directed at me? The only part of my comment directed at you was the fact that you did not read the parameters and have skewed the results of this survey.

EDIT: I thought I said this but I omitted it:

All of the studies I have ever seen about circucision and its relationship to HPV and cervical cancer are retroactive studies. This means they began from a condition og cervical cancer, and work backwards, which neccesarily involves certain assumptions, and assumptions ARE NOT science.

retroactive studies are one of the most powerful ways to make connections.....

and i dont believe circumcision should be used to prevent penile cancer.....but there is a link (it is irrefutable) to circumcision status and ABILITY to contract HIV and HPV.....it has to do with amount of mucosa exposed and number of white cells present......just like people with congenital absence of T cells dont contract HIV.....also people in their more "natural state" are more likely to carry disease, look at vaccinations for example.....again i dont agree with circumcision for HPV/HIV prevention but the link is there
 

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baseball99 said:
Actually, i really enjoy how you teach me medicine :rolleyes: .....i wont argue, i'll just post primary research. But thank you, bc lookin up the info showed me that it is actually increasing in prevalence and not stagnant
http://javascript<b></b>:AL_get(this, 'jour', 'J Am Acad Dermatol.');

I just can't take anything you say seriously. You have stated that you come here for entertainment 'only', and that you enjoy arguing.
My posts and opinions are genuine, I am passionate about the subjects I post on and the last thing I want to do is spark an argument.
I think most people here post from the heart.

You seem to enjoy playing the devils advocate in order to see how much heat you can stir up.
I can see you enjoy arguing, you can't let things go. I might have some respect for you if I thought you were here because of a fundamental need to help people, but you sir, have stated otherwise.
I don't know who's reading your 'research, I know I'm not.

 

baseball99

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Mumzi said:
I just can't take anything you say seriously. You have stated that you come here for entertainment 'only', and that you enjoy arguing.
My posts and opinions are genuine, I am passionate about the subjects I post on and the last thing I want to do is spark an argument.
I think most people here post from the heart.

You seem to enjoy playing the devils advocate in order to see how much heat you can stir up.
I can see you enjoy arguing, you can't let things go. I might have some respect for you if I thought you were here because of a fundamental need to help people, but you sir, have stated otherwise.
I don't know who's reading your 'research, I know I'm not.

uhm, random.....nothing was addressed to you. That's fine and you are entitled to whatever opinion you have.....I dont know how many random PM's i have got from people who have thanked me for explaining something or making something clear.....who should read the research? People who claim things that blatantly are incorrect.....cheers

and by the way.....you, as a nurse, should know that if there werent people like me in the research or medical field to question, raise arguments, research them, and gasp maybe even argue at conferences etc.....research would be stagnant and we would still be treating people for infections with cold compresses

you dont have to take anything i say seriously.....sigh i let peer review editors do that
 

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Definitive statement:
In weighing the risks and benefits of circumcision, doctors consider the fact that penile cancer is one of the least common forms of cancer in the United States. Neither the American Academy of Pediatrics nor the Canadian Academy of Pediatrics recommends routine circumcision of newborns. Ultimately, decisions about circumcision are highly personal and depend more on social and religious factors than on medical evidence.
American Cancer Society, 05/31/2006
 

B_dxjnorto

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Baseball, as always, you take it to the nth degree. You still don't state why you think cutting the genitals of infants is good practice for penile cancer. Penis cancer is usually a disease of extreme age. You want to be right more than you want to practice good medicine.

I've read the studies. Penile cancer is extremely rare. Something like 1 in 100,000 or 200,000. So it's increasing? To what? A 100 percent increase would be another 1 in 100,000 or 200,000. Smoking is a MUCH greater risk factor.

The way you say it, everyone should run out and be cut immediately. This is called fearmongering. You shouldn't stoop so low.
 

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SteveHd said:
BB99, please answer J's prior question:

I've already answered that question 100 times.....and actually answered it once, maybe twice in that previous post
 

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baseball99 said:
I've already answered that question 100 times.....and actually answered it once, maybe twice in that previous post
For the benefit of the readers, please provide an in-thread link to the most recent of the 100.
 

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Baseball, as always, you take it to the nth degree. You still don't state why you think cutting the genitals of infants is good practice for penile cancer.
are you kidding? Can you not read? Did i not say i dont agree it should be done for that. Even though it should not be done you can not turn a blind eye to the correlation.....to do so is stupid

Penis cancer is usually a disease of extreme age. You want to be right more than you want to practice good medicine.
Thanks again for the medical lesson :rolleyes: For the last time I DONT perform circumcisions.....its not a part of what I do.....just like i dont perform abortions, brain surgery, appendectomies, DEXA scans, or VQ scans

I've read the studies.
no you havent bc the comments you make are so naive

Penile cancer is extremely rare. Something like 1 in 100,000 or 200,000. So it's increasing? To what? A 100 percent increase would be another 1 in 100,000 or 200,000. Smoking is a MUCH greater risk factor.
Just like you said "circumcision complications are extremely rare.....but if it happens to you its 100%".....kinda the same with penile cancer right? Before I would go around recommending routine circumcisions to prevent penile cancer I would much more likely recommend HPV vaccine if it prove efficacious and close monitoring of phimosis

The way you say it, everyone should run out and be cut immediately. This is called fearmongering. You shouldn't stoop so low.
Yep, that exactly how i say it :rolleyes: .....the day you learn to read appropriately and not misconstrue posts for your own benefit is probably the smae day there will be no shades of grey
 

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SteveHd said:
For the benefit of the readers, please provide an in-thread link to the most recent of the 100.

Thread #97
retroactive studies are one of the most powerful ways to make connections.....

and i dont believe circumcision should be used to prevent penile cancer.....but there is a link (it is irrefutable) to circumcision status and ABILITY to contract HIV and HPV.....it has to do with amount of mucosa exposed and number of white cells present......just like people with congenital absence of T cells dont contract HIV.....also people in their more "natural state" are more likely to carry disease, look at vaccinations for example.....again i dont agree with circumcision for HPV/HIV prevention but the link is there