Pro Life v Pro Choice

[Not_Punny]

My point being that 3 out of 4 USA abortions occur within 2 weeks of discovering the pregnancy = around the same time that "Mother Nature" often decides, OOPS, wasn't right.

I lean toward pro-choice.

But even more than that, I believe in PRO-EDUCATION and PRO-BIRTH-CONTROL.

Those are the real issues.

Politicians are idiots.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

My point being that 3 out of 4 USA abortions occur within 2 weeks of discovering the pregnancy = around the same time that "Mother Nature" often decides, OOPS, wasn't right.

I don't really understand the relevance of that. Elective and spontaneous abortion are not the same thing and I know you are too clever to think they are so please fill me in on the point I'm missing.

 

[Gillette]

What about the future woman she may be carrying? Where does her choice fit into the equation?

It doesn't. It wasn't her choice to be concieved either.

I wonder how many pro-lifers also think that parents should be able to decide whether or not thier daughters should get the HPV immunization. If a teenaged child isn't qualified to choose immunization why should an embryo be given a choice to live?

But whose choice is it really? The choice and the voice is taken away from the one who cannot speak and therefor made forever silent.

Do you eat meat?

My intention was to show that when we want a child it's "our baby", and when we don't, it's a fetus, tissue, embryo or whatever.

Of course. That is because the child is wanted. It is, however, still the same bit of tissue in both cases.

I disagree with those who say they loved their baby before it was even born. How? Did they love their husbands before having met or gotten to know them? No. What is loved is the fact they are having a child.

The child they love is a hope, a concept and a mental construct, not an individual. They've never seen it smile, laugh, or shared a joke with it. It hasn't developed a personality, views on the world or even a favorite colour. At the point up to where abortions are performed the woman can't even physically feel the baby's presence. The love for a child at such an early stage of development is the expressed desire for, rather than actual love for, IMO.

 

[Not_Punny]

I don't really understand the relevance of that. Elective and spontaneous abortion are not the same thing and I know you are too clever to think they are so please fill me in on the point I'm missing.

Oh, I'm not clever at all. I'm a mom with teenage kids = these issues are a HUGE deal to me. I'm "living" it right now -- sex ed, birth control, morality, schools, etc.

Two "forces" kill unborn babies -- nature and humans. It seemed relevant that the majority of interrupted lives occurred around the same time.

So many people try to divine when it's "right" and when abortion is "wrong." I'm just glad that in the USA at least, most abortions occur at the same time that Nature cuts it off. It's seems a little less bad that way.

Personally, I find abortion very upsetting. But I believe the only way we can reduce it is better and 100% available sex education and birth control.

 

[B_cigarbabe]

My heart tells me Abortion is wrong.
I would never thrust that belief upon another human.

I had a few girls in high school have abortions due to condoms breaking with me or me and them just being stupid and going bareback. The process sucked of the abortion sucked. I live with the guilt. Did I kill my son or daughter? Why is it them,who was stupid because you,went bareback? If this was such a big deal to you,why didn't you keep the child? Let her birth it, and you raise the child. Or use a back up contraceptive,just in case,the condom breaks.

Having a child and teaching children who were adopted, I can't see ending a pregnancy. In cases of rape or incest I feel the victum should have that choice.

I just feel it should be a choice available for other people who are in different situations.

Jake

I think it is insane, to make a woman have a child that she doesn't want,can't afford,or keep a baby that was the by product, of rape or incest,if she doesn't want to. I'm not saying this is what Jake is
espousing,but there are plenty of people who never,ever, should have had children,never mind letting them own a pet.
I myself had an abortion in my second trimester,because my gyn misdiagnosed how far along I was. My uterus was so small, he was off by almost four months.When I went to Planned Parenthood, for the abortion
I was already in the stirrups,with an IV in my arm,and the doctor said
"we can't give you an d & c,your'e over five months along". They unhooked the IV, and sent me to see a doctor at the hospital.Where, they would do, second trimester abortions. I was horrified to find this out,and on top of it my boyfriend said,"I'll do it for you,let me get a coat hanger".
Nobody could have been more depressed and upset than I was. I knew
that I absolutely,did not want, to bring a child into my life,I worked seven days a week then,and double shifts on the weekends. I smoked,drank and did coke, to try and cope with the long hours, spent in a club.
I didn't want a baby,nor did I feel bad about terminating this pregnancy.
It was the right choice for, that as yet, developed child and for me.
cigarbabe:saevil:
Sorry Jake I misread your paragraph about the condom and you being stupid.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

Oh, I'm not clever at all. I'm a mom with teenage kids = these issues are a HUGE deal to me. I'm "living" it right now -- sex ed, birth control, morality, schools, etc.

Two "forces" kill unborn babies -- nature and humans. It seemed relevant that the majority of interrupted lives occurred around the same time.

So many people try to divine when it's "right" and when abortion is "wrong." I'm just glad that in the USA at least, most abortions occur at the same time that Nature cuts it off. It's seems a little less bad that way.

Personally, I find abortion very upsetting. But I believe the only way we can reduce it is better and 100% available sex education and birth control.

Well - I certainly agree with your last point there.

On the timing point, I think you'll find that a lot of the later abortions occur after parents have been informed of certain congenital defects, such as Downs, and decide not to take the pregnancy to term. That saddens me, I have known many people with Downs and yes, the parents have difficult lives for sure - but the people themselves have been joyful, wonderful, fully rounded and happy people, with full lives and loves and hurts and ambitions and desires like the rest of us. I know there is far more to it and that is just one example - but having met so many lovely people who may have been 'destroyed' before birth for their 'defect' does kind of underline the point for me personally.

It's a difficult call and I don't envy those parents' their responsibility in either direction - and I feel for them whatever decision they make. Another thing a lot of people assume about the pro-life camp is that it is very black and white for us - and it just isn't.

 

[whatireallywant]

I think it is insane, to make a woman have a child that she doesn't want,can't afford,or keep a baby that was the by product, of rape or incest,if she doesn't want to. I'm not saying this is what Jake is
espousing,but there are plenty of people who never,ever, should have had children,never mind letting them own a pet.
I myself had an abortion in my second trimester,because my gyn misdiagnosed how far along I was. My uterus was so small, he was off by almost four months.When I went to Planned Parenthood, for the abortion
I was already in the stirrups,with an IV in my arm,and the doctor said
"we can't give you an d & c,your'e over five months along". They unhooked the IV, and sent me to see a doctor at the hospital.Where, they would do, second trimester abortions. I was horrified to find this out,and on top of it my boyfriend said,"I'll do it for you,let me get a coat hanger".
Nobody could have been more depressed and upset than I was. I knew
that I absolutely,did not want, to bring a child into my life,I worked seven days a week then,and double shifts on the weekends. I smoked,drank and did coke, to try and cope with the long hours, spent in a club.
I didn't want a baby,nor did I feel bad about terminating this pregnancy.
It was the right choice for, that as yet, developed child and for me.
cigarbabe:saevil:

Wow! You are very brave for posting that! I was so fearful of being condemned that I hem-hawed about my own first-trimester one.

In my case, it was from only the third time I had sex in my entire life (and with The Asshole, at that!), and we WERE using protection (the condom broke). I was working for minimum wage and had no health insurance, plus I have never wanted children. I don't regret my decision but I do feel bad about the fact that so many people would hate and condemn me. I have a tubal ligation now so I don't have to worry about that again.

 

[3664shaken]

This debate seems to hinge around word-games by redefining what a human being is. Once the egg becomes fertilized you have the entire DNA for that human being. It does not matter if it is one second old or 8 months or 80 years old it is a human being just at a different stage of life.

If you abort it you have killed a human being.

So the argument is really over does a woman have a choice to murder another human being that she finds inconvenient and if we frame the debate in the correct terms most people can come to the logical and humanistic conclusion that murder is wrong.

It is only when we obfuscate the terms to soften the reality that it muddies the clarity of what should be a simple realization that murder is wrong.

 

[36DD]

It doesn't. It wasn't her choice to be concieved either. I can't argue with you there...my point was no body ever thinks about the choice of the child.

I wonder how many pro-lifers also think that parents should be able to decide whether or not thier daughters should get the HPV immunization. If a teenaged child isn't qualified to choose immunization why should an embryo be given a choice to live?I would let my child make that choice for the immunization...I wish it had been around then when my daughter needed it...maybe then when she was raped she would not have contracted HPV which eventually led to her having cervical cancer



Do you eat meat? In all honesty, once in a blue moon...I am mostly vegetarian.




I disagree with those who say they loved their baby before it was even born. How? Did they love their husbands before having met or gotten to know them? No. What is loved is the fact they are having a child.

The child they love is a hope, a concept and a mental construct, not an individual. They've never seen it smile, laugh, or shared a joke with it. It hasn't developed a personality, views on the world or even a favorite colour. At the point up to where abortions are performed the woman can't even physically feel the baby's presence. The love for a child at such an early stage of development is the expressed desire for, rather than actual love for, IMO.

I can only assume by this statement you have never had a baby or you would know it is possible to love your baby before it is born...even if you cannot feel the life yet within you. Love is a choice that often gets confused with emotion because of the emotions so strongly associated with it. I loved my children before they were born...I loved them when I didn't feel them, and I loved them when I did, I got to know them before they were born...they had distinct personalities, each of them, and those qualities present in utero I can still see in them to this day!

 

[rob_just_rob]

Often times in the US it seems that the same groups who are anti-choice are also anti-birth control and anti-sex education.

I've noticed that too.

I've also noticed that after a baby is born, the same groups that lobby hard to prevent abortions completely lose interest in the baby's welfare.

 

[Mr. Snakey]

Citation please.

Most abortions* are D and C

I'm pro-life too, man - but that kind of language and abuse of the scientific facts just detracts from any rational debate.

* Western world abortions tend to be up to or around the 12 week mark - 14 week and less abortions are normally effected by this procedure as far as I understand. That is what I am basing my statement on.

3rd term.

 

[3664shaken]

The child they love is a hope, a concept and a mental construct, not an individual. They've never seen it smile, laugh

I guess you have never seen a modern ultrasound?

 

[ManlyBanisters]

3rd term.

That is not common - the emphasis on this kind of thing, the use of shock tactics, undermines the argument.

 

[rob_just_rob]

Well, that was predictable. We've got to the "when-does-life-start" question, which will go back and forth interminably, of course, accompanied by the fanatics waving bloody pictures and the people who think the bible, a book of fiction written eons ago, can somehow determine which modern medical procedures are okay and which aren't. The same way it determines which modern sexual practices are okay and which aren't, I guess.

Expect another dozen pages of debate that won't resolve anything. Neither side is going to convince the other.

 

[B_cigarbabe]

My wife and I faced this when we knew our baby was on the way and we are very pro-life, but only as it pertains to us. A woman has a right to choose and there are circumstances that warrant an abortion in my book. For example, I am not going to tell a woman who was impregnanted due to rape that she has to carry that baby to term. What kind of a person would ask her to relive that horror everyday for the next nine months and beyond? Now on the flip side, I have a cousin who used to use pregnancy as a way to "get a man". She had so many abortions that she is now sterile. THAT I do NOT condone as a "valid reason". Wear a condom or get on the pill I say.

As a male, I feel that I have no right to impose my will over anyone elses life or body, especially a woman. Nor do I feel anyone needs my religious belief thrust upon them. I recall a news story from a few years ago where a woman had terminal cancer, but was pregnant and on life support. The woman's husband kept his wife on life support so her baby could carry to term. After the baby was born, the plug was pulled and the woman passed away. I applauded their choice on one hand and on another thought how cruel to the woman to keep her like that, but how do you choose which life is more important?

The only way I would be a pro-life "preacher" is if I had the means to tell every woman that was about to have an abortion "Look, I'll take your baby and raise him or her if you will carry it to term." The system is already full of children that aren't adopted, why add to it if I am not prepared or able to handle some of that burden??

Thank you,Osiris for having an opinion, that makes a whole lot of sense!
When I went to planned parenthood,there were, outside these idiots, who are pro-life,holding pix of dead babies and screaming at me, that I am
going to hell, for "killing" my baby. When I asked them, who takes care of these babies,that you, want to be sent to an "orphanage". The woman told me; Well my friend has adopted three of these children". I said were they white? yes,she answered. I asked her, well what about all the other kids who are mixed race,or mentally disabled,or are not "perfect?
she told me that, "God provides for those children." I said;there are over three million children in fostercare, and up for adoption, {at that time}
and your telling me, those kids are well taken care of by God?
she said "yes" ,with a straight face. This is the group of "pro-lifers,who had a member shoot the clinic personnel,in Brookline,Mass. as soon as he was caught by the police,they denounced him for "not representing our policies."
Strange how they all showed up at his trial and cheered him,and donated monies for his defense though.
Please tell me how, you can be pro-life,but it's okay to kill doctors who perform their jobs,or kill,a killer?
cigarbabe:saevil:

 

[Mr. Snakey]

That is not common - the emphasis on this kind of thing, the use of shock tactics, undermines the argument.

I was talking about 3rd term. This is real.

 

[Not_Punny]

I disagree with those who say they loved their baby before it was even born. How? Did they love their husbands before having met or gotten to know them? No. What is loved is the fact they are having a child.

The child they love is a hope, a concept and a mental construct, not an individual. They've never seen it smile, laugh, or shared a joke with it. It hasn't developed a personality, views on the world or even a favorite colour. At the point up to where abortions are performed the woman can't even physically feel the baby's presence. The love for a child at such an early stage of development is the expressed desire for, rather than actual love for, IMO.

Oh, I don't know, Gillette. :wink:

Call me (and many moms I've talked to) looney, but we engage in "morse code" communication through the womb wall, we catch drifts of emotions, and we swear that they keep us awake at night on purpose.

Yes, a lot of it IS hopes and dreams, especially before the third trimester, but there IS a bond, and there IS communication of sorts.

The first time a kid "taps back" -- whoa! To me, that's even more emotional than the first smile. Not to put down a first smile -- that's huge. It's all good.

But I challenge anyone to tell me that I'm mental for thinking that moms get to know their kids BEFORE they're born! :biggrin1:

 

[36DD]

Well, that was predictable. We've got to the "when-does-life-start" question, which will go back and forth interminably, of course, accompanied by the fanatics waving bloody pictures and the people who think the bible, a book of fiction written eons ago, can somehow determine which modern medical procedures are okay and which aren't. The same way it determines which modern sexual practices are okay and which aren't, I guess.

Expect another dozen pages of debate that won't resolve anything. Neither side is going to convince the other.

Speaking only for me, I am not here to judge anyone, I just gave my stance on the issue and why. I am not here to tell anyone what to do or to change their mind. Even if I did not believe in God, I still would feel abortion is wrong because it ends another's life...that is just how I see it. I have stated before that I am sure abortion must be a most difficult decision for any woman to make and I am not here to judge her. I think people need better access to birth control and better sex and health education so maybe in the future this discussion won't even be necessary...but then I am the eternal optimist.

 

[Drifterwood]

This debate seems to hinge around word-games by redefining what a human being is. Once the egg becomes fertilized you have the entire DNA for that human being. It does not matter if it is one second old or 8 months or 80 years old it is a human being just at a different stage of life.

If you abort it you have killed a human being.

So the argument is really over does a woman have a choice to murder another human being that she finds inconvenient and if we frame the debate in the correct terms most people can come to the logical and humanistic conclusion that murder is wrong.

It is only when we obfuscate the terms to soften the reality that it muddies the clarity of what should be a simple realization that murder is wrong.

In my heart I wish that we did have a world in which every potential child was loved, etc. etc., but everyone who has lived knows that this just isn't the case and therefore the pragmatic argument for abortion is won.

If you have a religious objection, I can not argue with you. I just don't hold your opinion.

But we (in the west at least) live in a secular community where our laws are determined by ethics. To a degree, I think that our ethics are influenced by the pragmatism, which does unsettle me somewhat, as it would be very easy if the ethical position was as simple as the pragmatic reality.

You want to say that humanity begins when a cell splits. I can't agree with this, it is rather that the potential begins when a cell splits. The reality of living happens at a different point. After this it gets very difficult. But I don't know when this is.

FTR (for the record) I am vehemently opposed to the death penalty, but I do eat meat that I have both reared and hunted.

 

[rob_just_rob]

For the vegetarians in our audience, which would you rather eat?

A big, juicy steak

OR

a cracker with a spoonful of roe on it?