Pro Life v Pro Choice

B_cigarbabe

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This debate seems to hinge around word-games by redefining what a human being is. Once the egg becomes fertilized you have the entire DNA for that human being. It does not matter if it is one second old or 8 months or 80 years old it is a human being just at a different stage of life.

If you abort it you have killed a human being.

So the argument is really over does a woman have a choice to murder another human being that she finds inconvenient and if we frame the debate in the correct terms most people can come to the logical and humanistic conclusion that murder is wrong.

It is only when we obfuscate the terms to soften the reality that it muddies the clarity of what should be a simple realization that murder is wrong.

So, if I understand you correctly,God,killed my first pregnancy?
My first pregnancy was an ectopic one.
This I would've had,simply because, I was too stupid, and naive, to know any better,and at twenty-one I thought all women were supposed to have babies to be "fulfilled". Since I didn't "murder "this one, by your definition,then the same terms apply,right?
GOD KILLED MY BABY!!!
Horror of Horrors!
cigarbabe:saevil:
 

Not_Punny

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Well - I certainly agree with your last point there.

On the timing point, I think you'll find that a lot of the later abortions occur after parents have been informed of certain congenital defects, such as Downs, and decide not to take the pregnancy to term. That saddens me, I have known many people with Downs and yes, the parents have difficult lives for sure - but the people themselves have been joyful, wonderful, fully rounded and happy people, with full lives and loves and hurts and ambitions and desires like the rest of us. I know there is far more to it and that is just one example - but having met so many lovely people who may have been 'destroyed' before birth for their 'defect' does kind of underline the point for me personally.

It's a difficult call and I don't envy those parents' their responsibility in either direction - and I feel for them whatever decision they make. Another thing a lot of people assume about the pro-life camp is that it is very black and white for us - and it just isn't.


It was for this reason that I refused to have genetic or fetal testing of any kind other than sonograms. I was going to love and raise them no matter what, and I didn't want to agonize over making a "decision" -- or worse, have doctors and family argue against my child.

My kids all came out "normal", but I have friends with special needs kids; I live a block away from a special needs school; and I'm proud to say that I've produced educational materials that are used to help educate special needs kids.

But not all parents are mentally or emotionally equipped for having a special needs child. One mom I know isn't nice to her child at all, saying that there isn't "anyone home" -- I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I consider the mom to be the inhuman one.

Thank god her next child miscarried..... (and I'm going to hell for saying that)
 

36DD

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Anyone who is against abortion is a fool
Some of us are trying to have an adult discussion and trying to show mutual respect. If you want to voice an opinion on why you feel pro-abortion, then fine...do so, but try to keep the comments which are just meant to insult to yourself. Thank you.
 

D_golden parachute

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That is my honest opinion.

Sorry if I can't be bothered to write paragraphs on why I feel this way just to be ignored by somebody on a penis forum.

I'll highlight some of my key points though:

It could be better for the child, than being brought up in a family where it was not wanted/the parent was incapable of bringing up the child

the fetus is not a human when the abortion takes place, a fly has more cells, so in theory killing a fly does more harm than having an abortion, scratching your skin kills cells, should that be outlawed?
 

3664shaken

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In my heart I wish that we did have a world in which every potential child was loved, etc. etc., but everyone who has lived knows that this just isn't the case and therefore the pragmatic argument for abortion is won.
Whoa, so if somebody pisses me off is the pragmatic argument won that I get the right to kill them? Of course not, what about grandma who gets a little loupy in the head – Euthanize her – that would be pragmatic but wrong also.

The idea that just because you do not love someone you get the right to murder them is nonsensical at best.

If you have a religious objection, I can not argue with you. I just don't hold your opinion.
It’s not religious it is a secular humanist’s opinion

But we (in the west at least) live in a secular community where our laws are determined by ethics.

Exactly my friend, it is murder, a highly unethical act carried out on the most defenseless of all - a child.

You want to say that humanity begins when a cell splits. I can't agree with this, it is rather that the potential begins when a cell splits. The reality of living happens at a different point. After this it gets very difficult. But I don't know when this is.

You missed the argument – as soon as the egg is fertilized it contains all of the DNA information it will ever contain. What makes us a human being – it is the coding inside of that DNA – you now have a human being in the 1 second old stage of life.

Trying to equivocate about this medical fact is where the semantics get played. Peter Singer, a noted philosopher who is adamantly pro-abortion gets furious with the abortion crowd over this very point. Of course it is a “human being” he will tell people “what else could it be a watermelon, a zebra, no it is a human being.” He tells people to not be intellectually dishonest but to put the cards on the table.

His argument is that the mothers choice should take precedent over the other human beings choice. I don’t agree with his argument but it is at least intellectually honest.
 

36DD

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It was for this reason that I refused to have genetic or fetal testing of any kind other than sonograms. I was going to love and raise them no matter what, and I didn't want to agonize over making a "decision" -- or worse, have doctors and family argue against my child.

My kids all came out "normal", but I have friends with special needs kids; I live a block away from a special needs school; and I'm proud to say that I've produced educational materials that are used to help educate special needs kids.

But not all parents are mentally or emotionally equipped for having a special needs child. One mom I know isn't nice to her child at all, saying that there isn't "anyone home" -- I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I consider the mom to be the inhuman one.

Thank god her next child miscarried..... (and I'm going to hell for saying that)
No you are not going to hell for saying that...it probably was for the best than have a child live under those circumstances with an abusive mother like that! It saddens me so when people think that special needs children do not feel hurt or understand cruelty...they are the object of enough of it. I commend your not wanting to know...I would probably have done the same thing...My sister was told at 4 months that her (surviving) baby (she lost one of the twins at 4 months which is when they started testing her)would not survive the heart defect she had and would not make it to delivery. My sister held on to her faith, and the baby lived just 4 short days...but she was so loved, and so wanted, and has touched many lives through her story. If she had been aborted, the good that came out of that little precious life would not have happened.
 

3664shaken

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So, if I understand you correctly,God,killed my first pregnancy?
My first pregnancy was an ectopic one.
This I would've had,simply because, I was too stupid, and naive, to know any better,and at twenty-one I thought all women were supposed to have babies to be "fulfilled". Since I didn't "murder "this one, by your definition,then the same terms apply,right?
GOD KILLED MY BABY!!!
Horror of Horrors!
cigarbabe:saevil:

This is comment is highly illogical.

If somebody dies of natural causes then do we blame the big girl in the sky of murder?

Perhaps you do not understand the concept of volition?
 

Drifterwood

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You missed the argument – as soon as the egg is fertilized it contains all of the DNA information it will ever contain. What makes us a human being – it is the coding inside of that DNA – you now have a human being in the 1 second old stage of life.

No, you are missing the point. It has the potential.

Your other arguments are circular based upon your presumed premise.
 

tiff86

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Try being a public school teacher for one week...you have a different understaning of abortion.

Haha LOL. Yeah actually I have a gf who worked w/kids w/emotional probs. and she said she thinks we should pay people to get sterilized. K so I'm not saying I agree w/that but yeah I think maybe if you see a bunch of kids who are really messed up cuz their parents sucked or were druggies or something and you think maybe if the mom woulda had an abortion...
 

rob_just_rob

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Exactly my friend, it is murder, a highly unethical act carried out on the most defenseless of all - a child.

Please try to avoid stating this as if it were a settled fact. It's your opinion, and that of some others, but nothing more.

May I also point out that fetuses are hardly defenseless - they're defended by legions of well-intentioned people who appeal to the question of what might be, rather than what is.
 

36DD

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Try being a public school teacher for one week...you have a different understaning of abortion.
I think if I had that job, my anger would be with the parents who are doing a lousy job of raising their kids...it wouldn't be with the kids. This is why I am not a school teacher, however I am a good mother and have heard many times I should be a teacher, but I would probably be arrested for assault and battery done to the parents who treat their kids like property instead of a human being.
 

36DD

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That is my honest opinion.

Sorry if I can't be bothered to write paragraphs on why I feel this way just to be ignored by somebody on a penis forum.

I'll highlight some of my key points though:

It could be better for the child, than being brought up in a family where it was not wanted/the parent was incapable of bringing up the child

the fetus is not a human when the abortion takes place, a fly has more cells, so in theory killing a fly does more harm than having an abortion, scratching your skin kills cells, should that be outlawed?
See? Now isn't it better to just state your opinion rather than insult people? Thank you for sharing...some here will agree with you even though I do not share it. But thanks anyway. See, you weren't ignored.
 

rob_just_rob

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Than what is it?????

A watermelon

A Zebra

A Dog

A flower

Since you're apparently off on a tangent of some sort, let me ask this.

Since you're so sure of when a fetus becomes a person, at what point does a woman stop being a person? When her male partner ejaculates, or when he buys her a drink and asks what a nice girl like her is doing in a place like this? :rolleyes:
 

D_golden parachute

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See? Now isn't it better to just state your opinion rather than insult people? Thank you for sharing...some here will agree with you even though I do not share it. But thanks anyway. See, you weren't ignored.

You must know what I mean though, I have several times on here genuinely tried to express an opinion and it has just been completely overlooked, that and I feel like I could be doing better things with my life than discussing abortion on an internet forum :biggrin1: