Problems with Straight Guys

[B_HungSpermBoy]

I'm starting this topic b/c I'm feeling some of its implications on this site & in my life.

I'm wondering if we guys who identify as "straight" are actually limited in our acceptence of ourselves and others, both women and other guys. This is what I mean: straight women seem to like other women, and they like men. Lesbian women seem to like women a lot but also like men. Gay guys definitely like guys and also women. But we straight guys just like women. We feel that other guys are competition & are not to be trusted. We only find our sole support in a woman.

So what is this about? Is this the cause of so many of our problems in the world? So I guess I'm asking this. Are we straight men so alienated from ourselves and others, that we've created this limited view of the world?

:freak:

 

[D_Martin van Burden]

I don't think that's entirely true, though I definitely agree that getting two straight guys together and expecting them to be warm, empathetic, chummy, honest, or thoughtful seems -- at first glance -- out of place. I think straight guys aren't "taught" to value these kinds of warm, emotional qualities, and it's certainly not reinforced from peers.

The minute you start talking to Joe Blow about anything but baseball or beer or ogling attractive women together, he's gonna think something's wrong with you.

Then again, if we're going on openmindedness here, what kinds of qualities would you like to have in your straight male friendships that you don't already have or want?

I remember one friend in particular who made me feel better about myself because he seemed really lax and carefree. I admit, part of me thought he was gay because he seemed so comfortable and cool with affection. He almost always wanted to hug me in greeting and closing. On a couple of occasions, we were sitting nearly side by side and kinda hanging on each other as we talked about stuff. When he was going through grief with his girlfriend and I let him do his talking, he interjected, "You want a massage?"

Who was I to say no? My back was a little sore from working out.

And he really didn't give a fuck. In fact, he'd joke about things like -- if he were going to get fucked in the butt, he'd rather have a big ol' strapping muscle dude do it.

He certainly wasn't alienated.

I don't know. I mean, I've got my own hangups too, and I wonder what kinda guy can be really comfortable, close, and accepting of good emotional bonding with his guy pals and feel secure enough in his heterosexuality. I know those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Then again, I don't blame anyone from their ignorance on such matters. They couldn't have known better; weren't raised that way.

 

[DC_DEEP]

HSB, there are lots of threads and lots of opinions on this board regarding this same issue. IMHO, it boils down to this: How comfortable are you with yourself? How much self-confidence and self-esteem do you have? Curiosity aside, if you are sexually attracted only to the same gender, you are gay. If you are sexually attracted to both genders, you are bisexual. If you are sexually attracted only to the opposite gender, you are straight.

It sounds like you are looking for justification to have a close male friend. When you get to a point where you don't really worry about "what other people will think," then you can do exactly that. If you are constantly worried about what other people think, then you will constantly be molded into or out of truly satifsying relationships with other people - regardless of their genders.

I have very good friends, including males, females, straight, bi, and gay. They are all comfortable with who they are and who I am. Otherwise, I really would not waste my time with them. Each of them adds a different facet and depth to the friendship that none of the others does. That's what makes them valuable.

You have to be comfortable in your own skin; otherwise, others will not be comfortable being around you.

 

[Alley Blue]

Originally posted by DC_DEEP@Sep 27 2005, 12:49 PM
They are all comfortable with who they are and who I am. Otherwise, I really would not waste my time with them. Each of them adds a different facet and depth to the friendship that none of the others does. That's what makes them valuable.

[post=346868]Quoted post[/post]​

That is such a great point DC Deep. I find those who are comfortable with themselves (whether it be their sexuality, personality or appearance) are much more able to build AND maintain meaningful, long term friendships. Friendships in which both parties involved can freely grow without the hindrance or anxiety of what the other person may think.

So what is this about? Is this the cause of so many of our problems in the world? So I guess I'm asking this. Are we straight men so alienated from ourselves and others, that we've created this limited view of the world?

And don't forget to keep in mind, not all straight men are like this.

 

[B_HungSpermBoy]

Originally posted by Alley Blue+Sep 27 2005, 08:36 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alley Blue &#064; Sep 27 2005, 08:36 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-DC_DEEP@Sep 27 2005, 12:49 PM
  They are all comfortable with who they are and who I am.  Otherwise, I really would not waste my time with them.  Each of them adds a different facet and depth to the friendship that none of the others does.  That&#39;s what makes them valuable.

[post=346868]Quoted post[/post]​

That is such a great point DC Deep. I find those who are comfortable with themselves (whether it be their sexuality, personality or appearance) are much more able to build AND maintain meaningful, long term friendships. Friendships in which both parties involved can freely grow without the hindrance or anxiety of what the other person may think.

So what is this about? Is this the cause of so many of our problems in the world? So I guess I&#39;m asking this. Are we straight men so alienated from ourselves and others, that we&#39;ve created this limited view of the world?

And don&#39;t forget to keep in mind, not all straight men are like this.

[post=346872]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

The reason I brought up this topic in the first place is that on another thread I was talking with an extremely aggressive guy who engenders all these negative straight male qualities, and I find myself disliking him a lot. I&#39;m wondering if these qualities are part of the reason the world is always involved in war and killing? Are we straight guys so competitive and lacking in compassion that we can&#39;t really have any concern for other guys, and in the long run, other people and countries? I&#39;m guessing that I&#39;m pushing this issue to its logical conclusion, but I see it all around me a good part of the time. The only time my guy friends really communicate with me is when they are hurting. Why are we so afraid of each other? It seems like a lonely and discouraging way to live.

BTW I do have a real close straight male friend & we&#39;ve talked about this topic a lot lately. He&#39;s wondering if we&#39;re unusual.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Originally posted by HungSpermBoy@Sep 27 2005, 12:22 PM
The reason I brought up this topic in the first place is that on another thread I was talking with an extremely aggressive guy who engenders all these negative straight male qualities, and I find myself disliking him a lot. I&#39;m wondering if these qualities are part of the reason the world is always involved in war and killing? Are we straight guys so competitive and lacking in compassion that we can&#39;t really have any concern for other guys, and in the long run, other people and countries? I&#39;m guessing that I&#39;m pushing this issue to its logical conclusion, but I see it all around me a good part of the time. The only time my guy friends really communicate with me is when they are hurting. Why are we so afraid of each other? It seems like a lonely and discouraging way to live.

BTW I do have a real close straight male friend & we&#39;ve talked about this topic a lot lately. He&#39;s wondering if we&#39;re unusual.

[post=346904]Quoted post[/post]​

When I encounter these negative, aggressive types, I call them on it. I have no fear whatsoever telling people when they act like jerks. And you are most likely correct, HSB, that when these qualities are either condoned or encouraged, that this is the type that leads to strife - between two people or between two countries.

I am still convinced that this type of personality is an outward manifestation of a pitifully insecure person, and I have little patience or tolerance for it.

 

[bigeight_98]

My take on this one is that I have met 100% straight guys who (for whatever reason, and there could be many) are the way you describe -- uptight, shut down, whatever you want to call it. They are generally not that much fun to be around, and not that interesting, since their topics of conversation are pretty much limited.

I have also met 100% straight guys who were secure in who they were and not threatened by anyone else&#39;s sexuality, and they are very interesting on a personal level, great company, and open to talking about pretty much anything, whether it&#39;s feelings or whatever.

That said, I do think 100% straight guys are in the minority. Unfortunately, the same characteristics that make many of them not much fun to be around are the same ones that make them less likely to be the kind of person that can live and let live.

 

[viking]

HSB,

I grew up in the South here in the US. Guys there tend to be very masculine, agressive, selective in their interactions with others and generally homophobic. Obviously not all southern men are like that.

I grew up in an environment where physical affection was the norm. In my family the guys have always hugged one another and we even kiss each other in public &#33;&#33;EEK&#33;&#33; Not that.

I find that now, my male friends are USUALLY very receptive to my physical displays of affection once they realize that it&#39;s the way I express myself.

The first time I give a friend a big bear hug I can feel him tense up like, WHOA what&#39;s happening? I&#39;ve noticed that quickly, my friends begin to expect a hug and even a kiss when they see me. I think that it&#39;s a great relief to find out that it&#39;s OK to show that kind of affection for one another. I&#39;m not talking about this touching shoulders thing that guys do when they are being cool. I&#39;m talking about a real hug, a greeting that says Hey, I&#39;ve missed you, How have you been?

If it&#39;s sincere, you will soon find out that you get that back from people. Most of my friends hug ME now when they see me.

My point I guess is that if you show people that you are making a real gesture of frinedship and appreciation with physical contact, it doesn&#39;t take long for them to reciprocate. It feels good to give and to receive a good strong HONEST hug to your buddies and have them give it back.

It has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with friendship and trust.

There will always be people who are not comfortable with that level of contact. There will always be people who are not comfortable with that level of friendship. Don&#39;t let that stop you from expressing your feelings for people. feeling close to people is will make your life happier and more full. Nurture that and be proud that you have the ability to love others and be loved by others without fear or shame of what other people think.

Sometimes all people need is an invitation to be open with you.

Viking

 

[CUBE]

Oh man Viking....a hug from you could be way more intimate than most people get across in the sack...I am SO sending you an email come my yearly visit to SF this winter....Did I just say that outloud?

 

[viking]

Originally posted by CUBE@Sep 27 2005, 02:55 PM
Oh man Viking....a hug from you could be way more intimate than most people get across in the sack...I am SO sending you an email come my yearly visit to SF this winter....Did I just say that outloud?

[post=346979]Quoted post[/post]​

Thanks CUBE, that&#39;s a very nice thing to say. :hug:

 

[B_HungSpermBoy]

Originally posted by DC_DEEP+Sep 27 2005, 12:57 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DC_DEEP &#064; Sep 27 2005, 12:57 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-HungSpermBoy@Sep 27 2005, 12:22 PM
The reason I brought up this topic in the first place is that on another thread I was talking with an extremely aggressive guy who engenders all these negative straight male qualities, and I find myself disliking him a lot. I&#39;m wondering if these qualities are part of the reason the world is always involved in war and killing?  Are we straight guys so competitive and lacking in compassion that we can&#39;t really have any concern for other guys, and in the long run, other people and countries? I&#39;m guessing that I&#39;m pushing this issue to its logical conclusion, but I see it all around me a good part of the time. The only time my guy friends really communicate with me is when they are hurting. Why are we so afraid of each other? It seems like a lonely and discouraging way to live.

BTW I do have a real close straight male friend & we&#39;ve talked about this topic a lot lately. He&#39;s wondering if we&#39;re unusual.

[post=346904]Quoted post[/post]​

When I encounter these negative, aggressive types, I call them on it. I have no fear whatsoever telling people when they act like jerks. And you are most likely correct, HSB, that when these qualities are either condoned or encouraged, that this is the type that leads to strife - between two people or between two countries.

I am still convinced that this type of personality is an outward manifestation of a pitifully insecure person, and I have little patience or tolerance for it.

[post=346922]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]


I&#39;m guessing that what you are saying & that what other people here are saying is that I just need to stay away from males who are too aggressive and closed up emotionally. I just wish I could get to be mellow about this in my own head. It feels to me that being pissed off about this is a good thing for me. Thanx to you guys.

 

[jonb]

I think most of it&#39;s homophobia. This results in the idea that any feelings toward another male at all are a sign you&#39;re gay. Naturally, this is a load of shit, but a lot of guys think it isn&#39;t.

 

[Matthew]

When I was 19 I had this relationship with a 17-year old straight guy. No sex, but a lot of physical contact - we used to lie around holding each other a lot. We loved each other and it was like being in a partner relationship. After about a year we decided that we were getting in the way of each other&#39;s quest for sexual partners and "broke up." It was sad and a week later he asked me if I wanted to "get back together." But we moved on, stayed friends, now he&#39;s married & lives in Pennsylvania. It was an exciting experience - we had no models for how we were supposed to act, we didn&#39;t know any names for what we were doing. It just felt good. A few years later I saw the movie "Maurice" in a theater and walked out shaking - for the first time ever I had actually seen something that resembled that relationship (hugh grant&#39;s first appearance, btw). Nothing quite like that has ever happened to me again. Thinking back on it it&#39;s hard to believe it was real.

I treasure my close relationships with women and would never trade them. But there is something special about the times I have broken through the fucked up social barriers with my straight guy friends and developed a true loving friendship. The bond is amazing and I know they feel the same way. Those friendships I have for life. I don&#39;t have brothers so maybe that&#39;s what it feels like.

But it&#39;s those relationships that have taught me that while it&#39;s undeniably "a jungle out there," that&#39;s not all there is. There are other ways of being with people, including other men, straight, gay, whateva, that completely transcend "kill or be killed." You can, if you choose to, find a level of connection in your relationships that make life fulfilling in a way that men aren&#39;t taught or encouraged or allowed to feel in this culture.

HSB - my man&#33; Much respect for starting this thread. Let the haters keep hating, god knows they won&#39;t stop on this board. I hope you keep following your instincts toward the best of what this life has to offer.

 

[britlover]

I think straight men with limited interests tend to be the no-physical-contact-amongst-blokes types. I used to dj, and mainly dj&#39;d in straight clubs (my music style was more laid-back than the hyper gay house music usually required around these traps). The other straight djs who I respected were quite affectionate and happy to talk about all sorts of things besides chicks, booze and football. And the fact that I was gay was never really an issue.

 

[madame_zora]

HSB, you know I love ya, guy&#33;

As I have gotten used to saying here lately, lpsg is the world of exceptions, not the real world as a whole. In the real world, much of what you said is true. MOST straight men are exactly as you said, in my opinion. MOST people in general live their lives ruled by fears. In women, we are depressed or neurotic (or both), in men they either get depressed or violent (or both). Oh, and trust me, there are plenty of lesbians who have no use for men at all&#33;

The difference is power. Men hold most positions of power, so while both genders are equally fucked up, men have the advantage in exercising their authority to make decisions based on their fears. I don&#39;t know what women would do in those situations were the roles reversed, but I&#39;d be pretty eager to wager we&#39;d have fewer wars.

Society tells men not to bond with each other, so they feel guilty if they ever do. It takes an exceptional person to overcome the boundaries society imposes and become a truly free thinking individual. Many of those men have found their way here for one reason or another. I have stopped questioning why and just become happy to be a part of it. I&#39;m sure there are other places in the world where you can find people with elevated views of life and it&#39;s purpose, even though they may be rare. Stick with the rarities, hold out for the good ones. There will be men and women in your life that will have a special impact on you, each in a unique way. Leave yourself open to that always and you&#39;ll be a happy man, what more could you ask for?

Yeah, the majority of the straight men I know will never have conversations with their buds over more than drinking, sports, fucking women and bragging in general. Anyone who thinks this is appealing to women doesn&#39;t talk to many women&#33; Ugh, gay men are generally so much more appealing to women because they generally have other interests, and generally show more concern for their fellow man. These are generalisations, I know, but I&#39;m talking about percentages. The straight guys who are more compassionate are in HIGH demand amoung women. If they have a chance to get to know you, they&#39;ll love you for it. I think all of us here, gay and straight, benefit from the open exchanges we have with each other. I hope we take it with us out into our daily lives and remember that the members of the "other" sexual preference list are our buddies on lpsg and we want to show them love more than judgement.




Okay, now lastly, gay men are MEN&#33; They are guys, they are not women with dicks&#33;
How many MEN out there hound the living shit out of women for sex????? If this sounds like a dumb question, it&#39;s because it is. We all know the answer- TONS of them do it. Then it&#39;s no big surprise that MEN who are attracted to men would use the same techniques on men. Most gay guys, like most straight guys, have morals and general couth, however the ones who do not can be persistant to the point of being obnoxious. There are SOME GAY MEN who persist long after the point should have been taken that a guy is straight and NOT FUCKING INTERESTED. NOT AT ALL. NO WAY. Trust me, I know what I&#39;m talking about. There have been men who have treated me in this fashion in many ways,putting me in innapropriate situations, grabbing my vagina as I walk past them in a bar, and I HATE it&#33; I&#39;ve decked a guy more than once for it, but I know it&#39;s not the last time in my life it will happen, there are too many obnoxious men out there. If a straight guy is at all attractive and gets out of the house much, he has experienced it too. The difference is he may very well be guilty of the very same behavior with women that gay guys use on him&#33; Everyone needs to see first that your OWN house is in order&#33; You want to be respected, treat others with respect. There is a certain segment of MEN, gay or straight, that think the world revolves around their own dick and really don&#39;t give a fuck about the rights or feelings of others. It&#39;s not a slam at gays to acknowledge the fact that some gay men are the same in this respect as some straight men.

 

[13788]

orionsword57:

Originally posted by madame_zora@Sep 27 2005, 11:14 PM
....Okay, now lastly, gay men are MEN&#33; They are guys, they are not women with dicks&#33;
How many MEN out there hound the living shit out of women for sex????? If this sounds like a dumb question, it&#39;s because it is. We all know the answer- TONS of them do it. Then it&#39;s no big surprise that MEN who are attracted to men would use the same techniques on men. Most gay guys, like most straight guys, have morals and general couth, however the ones who do not can be persistant to the point of being obnoxious. There are SOME GAY MEN who persist long after the point should have been taken that a guy is straight and NOT FUCKING INTERESTED. NOT AT ALL. NO WAY. Trust me, I know what I&#39;m talking about. There have been men who have treated me in this fashion in many ways,putting me in innapropriate situations, grabbing my vagina as I walk past them in a bar, and I HATE it&#33; I&#39;ve decked a guy more than once for it, but I know it&#39;s not the last time in my life it will happen, there are too many obnoxious men out there. If a straight guy is at all attractive and gets out of the house much, he has experienced it too. The difference is he may very well be guilty of the very same behavior with women that gay guys use on him&#33; Everyone needs to see first that your OWN house is in order&#33; You want to be respected, treat others with respect. There is a certain segment of MEN, gay or straight, that think the world revolves around their own dick and really don&#39;t give a fuck about the rights or feelings of others. It&#39;s not a slam at gays to acknowledge the fact that some gay men are the same in this respect as some straight men....

[post=347107]Quoted post[/post]​

VERY well said&#33;

 

[Kimahri]

I must be spoiled then.

90% of my interactions with straight men have been pretty normal. I did encounter one guy that was way hypermasculine, homophobic and chauvanistic. He wore on my patience considerably to the day he crossed the line with me. Apparently, because I&#39;m gay, I&#39;m not supposed to be able to fight and be reasonably good at it. He didn&#39;t stay around much after that.

On point, I do maintain some close ties to other males that are not gay. They aren&#39;t threatened by me or my orientation and are completely ok with everything. HSB, you&#39;re alot like them from what I&#39;m reading. And I know that not all straight guys are barbarians in behavior.

Guys are hardwired for aggression and action. It&#39;s throughtout of lives we learn to curb those behaviors and make ourselves suitable to be around in many situations. That comes from parental units moreso than anywhere else.

 

[Matthew]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Sep 28 2005, 12:14 AM
Okay, now lastly, gay men are MEN&#33; They are guys, they are not women with dicks&#33;
How many MEN out there hound the living shit out of women for sex????? If this sounds like a dumb question, it&#39;s because it is. We all know the answer- TONS of them do it. Then it&#39;s no big surprise that MEN who are attracted to men would use the same techniques on men. Most gay guys, like most straight guys, have morals and general couth, however the ones who do not can be persistant to the point of being obnoxious. There are SOME GAY MEN who persist long after the point should have been taken that a guy is straight and NOT FUCKING INTERESTED. NOT AT ALL. NO WAY. Trust me, I know what I&#39;m talking about. There have been men who have treated me in this fashion in many ways,putting me in innapropriate situations, grabbing my vagina as I walk past them in a bar, and I HATE it&#33; I&#39;ve decked a guy more than once for it, but I know it&#39;s not the last time in my life it will happen, there are too many obnoxious men out there. If a straight guy is at all attractive and gets out of the house much, he has experienced it too. The difference is he may very well be guilty of the very same behavior with women that gay guys use on him&#33; Everyone needs to see first that your OWN house is in order&#33; You want to be respected, treat others with respect. There is a certain segment of MEN, gay or straight, that think the world revolves around their own dick and really don&#39;t give a fuck about the rights or feelings of others. It&#39;s not a slam at gays to acknowledge the fact that some gay men are the same in this respect as some straight men.

[post=347107]Quoted post[/post]​

MZ, there is unquestionably truth to what you are saying. Also, some gay men persist with other gay men long after the point should have been taken that the guy is NOT INTERESTED. All people need to learn to know when to take NO for an answer, especially men. The thing I object to, and I keep reading it in in so many threads, is this thing about predatory gay men victimizing straight men. Because in the way that issue is being expressed, the legitimate desire to want and expect people to respect your space is mixed in with gay-hating.

 

[alexc75]

> The thing I object to, and I keep reading it in in so many threads,
> is this thing about predatory gay men victimizing straight men.
> Because in the way that issue is being expressed, the legitimate
> desire to want and expect people to respect your space is mixed
> in with gay-hating.

While I don&#39;t speak in any way, shape or form for Madam Zora, I interpreted her message with no gay-hating intention. Maybe I&#39;m misinterpreting your message. But her point is that men are men, regardless of orientation. Men, by our very nature are "predatory". Straights hunt women, gays hunt men. As others in this thread point out, we men have to overcome that predatory instinct. I believe it&#39;s called "civility", "manners", "ethics" or "culture"... something like that.

Now that I really think about it, this might not come out right, but "gay men victimizing straight men" is really a funny comment. The hypermasculine man prides himself on the fact he&#39;s so manly (exactly what gay&#39;s are attracted to). Anytime a man&#39;s sexuality is questioned, he perceives this as an insult to his unquestionable masculinity which, in turn, pisses him off and that&#39;s when the "gay-hating" begins. "How on Earth could some guy hit on me? I&#39;m all man, dammit. Grrrr." I personally think straight men victimize themselves by letting a pass from a gay guy get their goats.

To generalize, gay men are perceived as a &#39;threat&#39; to hypermasculinity. Masculinity is a "show"... kind of like when National Geographic talks about animals putting on a display to attract mates. If the male&#39;s display attracts something unwanted, the male displays another masculine trait called aggression to compensate for his lack of ability to get the mate he wants.

I&#39;m sort of envious of HungSpermBoy&#39;s situation that spawned this thread. I know that if my best male friend (who is a stereotypical hypermasculine individual) ever wanted to experiment with me, I&#39;d do it in a heartbeat. Not because of being attracted to him, but to solidify the emotional connection I with him.... the fact that he&#39;d trust me with something that&#39;s somewhat taboo would just make our friendship that much stonger/closer (unless he gets weirded out and wants to move in and adopt kids together.... that&#39;d be too much for me&#33.

 

[viking]

Originally posted by alexc75@Sep 28 2005, 10:01 AM


Now that I really think about it, this might not come out right, but "gay men victimizing straight men" is really a funny comment. The hypermasculine man prides himself on the fact he&#39;s so manly (exactly what gay&#39;s are attracted to). Anytime a man&#39;s sexuality is questioned, he perceives this as an insult to his unquestionable masculinity which, in turn, pisses him off and that&#39;s when the "gay-hating" begins. "How on Earth could some guy hit on me? I&#39;m all man, dammit. Grrrr." I personally think straight men victimize themselves by letting a pass from a gay guy get their goats.

[post=347218]Quoted post[/post]​

Sure this is true but, You&#39;re forgetting that the perception of what gay men want is not always clear in the mind of the Hypermasculine dude.

He thinks that all gay guys are pussies and that they are feminine. Therefore, how could he be the object of desire? I&#39;m not a feminie pussy fag God Damit&#33;&#33; I&#39;ll kick yur fuckin ass&#33;&#33;

If he understood that he&#39;s being viewed as a masculine stud, well it might be different.??