This reminds me a bit of a thread I started some time back... sort of a "turning-the-tables" thread. It centered around the so-often used "gay panic defense" that I see much too often in the news. This is when a "straight" man panics, because a gay man put the moves on him, and either injures or kills the gay man. Courts often permit leniency, given the defense of "gay panic." I asked, in my earlier thread, how that would go over in the straight world... if a woman murdered a man because he hit on her in a bar. I'm all for equal protection under the law.
Problems with Straight Guys
- Thread starter B_HungSpermBoy
- Start date
Madame_Zora,
So cool what you wrote to me. I know a lot of what I'm experiencing right now is b/c I'm trying to understand my own friendships. My mom has given me some cool advice about how to handle unwanted advances from anybody. I thought I'd never have to use them, but being in NYC in college is like being in a tank of pariahs. I'm finding out that I'm a real aggressive asshole male sometimes too & maybe I don't like that in myself. I just don't want to end up being such a lousy person. So when I see that predatory behavior in other guys, it sets off something in me & I get so fucking defensive. Being out with my g/f, I've actually had to tell guys to back off from her b/c they get so outrageous coming on to her. I don't want to have to do that shyt. I don't want to have to be some asshole to other guys or anyone. I think too that I've got a real good friendship with my best buddy so I'm trying to balance it all out & be mellow. BTW I never had any gay guy come on to me in a disrespectful way. I think it's b/c if you want someone to like you, it doesn't make any sense to treat them bad. Thanx.
Originally posted by bigeight_98+Sep 28 2005, 07:44 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bigeight_98 @ Sep 28 2005, 07:44 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>@Sep 28 2005, 04:04 AM
Okay Guys.....lets not take my topic somewhere it should not go. If you wish to argue..then do it privately. I don't apperciate my topic being turned into a tough man bout.
Take it outside....
[post=347121]Quoted post[/post]
BBB2.5 & other people on this thread,
I'm sorry I let this topic get to me so much that I started arguing with Bruce. I guess it's a really complicated & emotion-producing thread to me. And I know that it's about my friendship with my buddy Mike. I got my personal feelings mixed up with this.
I apologize to you.
[post=347343]Quoted post[/post]
No need to apologize, HSB, at least not to me. If Bruce's second post had been directed to me I would have found it offensive as well.
Note to Bruce: There's a way to make a point without going overboard. For a good example, check out Aruba_1st's answer.
[post=347368]Quoted post[/post]
[/b][/quote]I don't think I want to write more off-topic on the other thread, so I'll put this in here. After all, I'm the reason for this thread, and I think that qualifies me as a poster on here too.
Okay, on the one hand I'm happy to see I still can step on other people's feet and haven't gone completely compromise yet, but still I don't know what was so offensive about my second post. Anyone thinks my being firm means I have something against gay guys? No, I just tried to make a clear point. I am not a very patient guy sometimes, and when I have to repeat myself, it actually annoys me a bit, so I was firm, yes. I didn't think anyone could take offense to it, but people did, and I apologized - which one offended guy understood and settled it, whereas another went completely bonkers because my behavior was against his theories.
I have learned my fair share in life, and if I may give you a friendly advice, HSB, don't go ballistic like a little kid if you see someone doesn't support your theories. Not at your age any more.
Bruce
Originally posted by BruceSter+Sep 28 2005, 10:10 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BruceSter @ Sep 28 2005, 10:10 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>@Sep 28 2005, 04:04 AM
Okay Guys.....lets not take my topic somewhere it should not go. If you wish to argue..then do it privately. I don't apperciate my topic being turned into a tough man bout.
Take it outside....
[post=347121]Quoted post[/post]
BBB2.5 & other people on this thread,
I'm sorry I let this topic get to me so much that I started arguing with Bruce. I guess it's a really complicated & emotion-producing thread to me. And I know that it's about my friendship with my buddy Mike. I got my personal feelings mixed up with this.
I apologize to you.
[post=347343]Quoted post[/post]
No need to apologize, HSB, at least not to me. If Bruce's second post had been directed to me I would have found it offensive as well.
Note to Bruce: There's a way to make a point without going overboard. For a good example, check out Aruba_1st's answer.
[post=347368]Quoted post[/post]
I don't think I want to write more off-topic on the other thread, so I'll put this in here. After all, I'm the reason for this thread, and I think that qualifies me as a poster on here too.
Okay, on the one hand I'm happy to see I still can step on other people's feet and haven't gone completely compromise yet, but still I don't know what was so offensive about my second post. Anyone thinks my being firm means I have something against gay guys? No, I just tried to make a clear point. I am not a very patient guy sometimes, and when I have to repeat myself, it actually annoys me a bit, so I was firm, yes. I didn't think anyone could take offense to it, but people did, and I apologized - which one offended guy understood and settled it, whereas another went completely bonkers because my behavior was against his theories.
I have learned my fair share in life, and if I may give you a friendly advice, HSB, don't go ballistic like a little kid if you see someone doesn't support your theories. Not at your age any more.
Bruce
[post=347423]Quoted post[/post]
[/b][/quote]Jeff,
Don't pay attention to this guy Bruce. I know you well, & I know what kind of young man you are. All I can say is we need a lot more aware and conscious straight guys like you in this world, and less of the clueless types that Bruce represents. Don't let the bastards get you down. L & me send our love.
R. :hi:
madame_zora
Sexy Member
I don't think Matthew was trying to say that my message was hateful, I think he was saying that straight men sometimes blend in their gay hating insecurities with their legitimate desires to have their space respected. Did I get that right, Matthew?
Yes, I believe that being predatory is a part of the chemical make-up of men. I also believe that other than gender preference in partners, there are no significant differences between gay men and straight men. Therefore, there ARE gay men who hound straight men, other gay men, there are some who are pedophiles, rapists, all the same sins of straight men. There are some who willfully prey on the young, just like straight men. If we can see the similarities to ourselves in others it makes it easier to understand what is going on. The problem is that many times those who belong to the category of "The Majority" whatever the topic, fail to see the flaws of their own group and look upon the flaws of the other group as separate from themselves. This is never true!
We've had multiple discussions about evolution in various threads, but even we who think we are advanced fail to understand that evolution isn't something that "happened", it's something that's "happening"! It's not that the Human race was once one thing and will one day become something else, it's that we're constantly growing, changing, evolving. As we learn to curb our baser instincts in preference of more humane choices, we grow. Homophobia is far less rampant now than it was when I was 20-something, I have high hopes for future generations. Here's the creepy part:
people occupying the planet at the same time are not necessarily at the same place in the evolutionary process. There would be no way for everyone to have experienced the exact same environmental influences that would cause that to be true. It's a ragged, rough process of weeding out what is no longer necessary for survival of a species, and much that is familiar will die- but not without putting up a fight. Understand that when you hear a homophobe speak, they are desperately defending something they hold dear and are incapable for whatever reason of seeing beyond their limited scope. It will do you no good to argue with them that their view is less evolved, so don't stand and argue in the face of a fool. Know well inside yourself that love is always higher, and everyone who doesn't get it is just not quite where you are. Yet.
Hey Jeff,
I've been thinking about your post & here are some of my ideas. My folks were hippie/free-spirit types so I grew up in a home where there were many different kinds of people, from artists to gay men & lesbians to radical feminists. I didn't see too many redneck guys or straight guys who were hyper-masculine (maybe like Brucester). But I do remember certain staight guys who my mom really hated & those were the guys who would pretend to be all liberal & openminded, but who were basically trying to seduce the sweet & young girls who hung out at my parent's house. My mom would point these guys out to me & would warn me not to turn into a man like them. :+ It took me a while to understand exactly what she was talking about. Here's the point of my story. I think there are straight guys who are really sincere and emotionally literate guys, who are aware of their sexual drives and their tendencies to try to seduce women every chance they get. But they are honest with the women they meet & try to express their true feelings with no manipulation. Then I think there are the straight guys who pretend to be all sensitive & loving to get into some girl's panties. I think these are the guys I've met here in Los Angeles who piss me off most. So even though there are a lot of the insensitive straight slobs running around, my sense of it is that the real snakes are the ones who pretend to be one thing & end up being something else. I've seen these guys hurt many more girls than any redneck. Ok, you take good care of yourself, Jeff. Love, Rich
I think some people need to lighten up and not read into Brucester's posts what he didn't intend. Bruce is straight, and that's fine: nobody's perfect. He frequently has engaged in good-natured banter with several gay men on this board, and that tells me that he has no problem with others' sexuality. He's no homophobe, and I'm sure he was not meaning to offend anyone. He was simply stating his point of view.
DMW, I wasn't saying that Bruce was homophobic at all. From his posts about "being straight", it seemed to me that he defined himself not just as preferring women but having a negative and mean-spirited attitude to guys generally, whether straight or gay or bi. The words he used were that he had no concern or care about men at all, that he wasn't interested in them, and that he just had a dog-eat-dog view of them (us). His words were "no affection for guys". My point in being critical of his attitude wasn't about how homophobic he is, but rather about how so many straight guys on the extreme end of the Kinsey scale (like Bruce), really either hate other males or disregard them as less that human. That was why I started this thread. Bruce's attitude toward me & other guys generally is either hateful or completely disregarding. I just said that this view dehumanizes all guys, making it easier to treat us disrespectfully. I see this from guys I meet all the time. Either they see me as a threat or as someone to control & neutralize as a competitor. Neither them not Bruce see me as a valuable human being or as a brother, deserving of respect, consideration and compassion. As I see it, if we don't learn to care about one another, women and men, then we all are responsible for the mess we get into in terms of war and destruction.
Whether this was said in reply toward Bruce's commentary or not, this is really, really powerful stuff here and I'm impressed what you wrote. The guy's hitting one hell of an issue -- essentially whatever it is about masculinity and emotionality that make them mutually exclusive creatures in some people.
The easiest answer is to ignore the question in the first place. An easy answer is trying not to think about it all that much or fatallistically hoping that everything will fall into place. The toughest answers involve seriously giving this issue some thought, exploring it, and really reflecting on the nature of your male to male friendships. What is it about them that makes them tick along? Why are things running smoothly? If you needed to show weakness or vulnerability, could you? Would he let you?
I've done some partying this weekend as a means of avoiding my case presentation rough draft due tomorrow. Also not in a mood to clean house, by the way. I met this guy friend of a co-worker; she's a cutie and she likes him. Seemed every bit a meathead on first impression, but I'll be damned if he wasn't as sociable and incredibly friendly.
Perhaps drinking made it a little easier to be extroverted -- as it was always does that social lubricant -- but he was very contact-oriented. Good solid handshake. Laughed, very comfortable being within my space. Cut up and cracked jokes. Both he and the girl were sitting on my lap outside while we smoked, and they both gave me a kiss on the cheek sometime before I left. I visited with them again and it was the same reaction.
The pitiful thing would be for me to read into his behavior in order to determine if he's really just stringin' her along and that he wants in my pants. That's just fuckin' stupid though, because if I had that attitude then I would be alleging that the only guys who can be comfortable with that contact are gay and that's it. No way.
Next time I hang out with him...
I mean, I gave him a big ol' hug and her too and told them to be safe and to take care of themselves. I complimented him through her over the phone. I just need to make sure he hears it.
We all need some love.
The easiest answer is to ignore the question in the first place. An easy answer is trying not to think about it all that much or fatallistically hoping that everything will fall into place. The toughest answers involve seriously giving this issue some thought, exploring it, and really reflecting on the nature of your male to male friendships. What is it about them that makes them tick along? Why are things running smoothly? If you needed to show weakness or vulnerability, could you? Would he let you?
I've done some partying this weekend as a means of avoiding my case presentation rough draft due tomorrow. Also not in a mood to clean house, by the way. I met this guy friend of a co-worker; she's a cutie and she likes him. Seemed every bit a meathead on first impression, but I'll be damned if he wasn't as sociable and incredibly friendly.
Perhaps drinking made it a little easier to be extroverted -- as it was always does that social lubricant -- but he was very contact-oriented. Good solid handshake. Laughed, very comfortable being within my space. Cut up and cracked jokes. Both he and the girl were sitting on my lap outside while we smoked, and they both gave me a kiss on the cheek sometime before I left. I visited with them again and it was the same reaction.
The pitiful thing would be for me to read into his behavior in order to determine if he's really just stringin' her along and that he wants in my pants. That's just fuckin' stupid though, because if I had that attitude then I would be alleging that the only guys who can be comfortable with that contact are gay and that's it. No way.
Next time I hang out with him...
I mean, I gave him a big ol' hug and her too and told them to be safe and to take care of themselves. I complimented him through her over the phone. I just need to make sure he hears it.
We all need some love.
Dee, you are a cool guy. You understand my POV real well. Thanx. I don't want to end up being some asshole when I get to be older. I want to have good friends who are female AND male. I'm not interested in fucking friends mainly. I want to have a support system that includes more then one woman(mate/wife) & some kids. I want some closeness with other guy friends that is like family. I don't want to end up being afraid of other males. And I want to support others too. Maybe this is too much to ask in the world we have now. \
Maybe you could be friends with the guy you met without it having to go to the sex thing?
madame_zora
Sexy Member
HSB, I read your query in your original post, but I didn't really grasp the gravity of what you were saying. Several other people took it to be about Bruce being homophobic, which I don't think he is, but I missed what you were actually getting at.
You've hit on a sore spot for me. I've known many men who were just as you described- adversarial to other men and nothing else. They treated other men as either a challege to overcome, the enemy, or just disregarded them altogether. Some come right out and say it, others are more quiet about it, but feel that way all the same. You can tell pretty quickly by the quality of their friendships with men, if they only have buddies but no close relationships with men, chances are they don't regard men very highly. I also know men who will only have buddies that they think are less attractive than themselves, which is creepy. Not every moment in life is a pussy-hunt nor should every friendship be centered around being able to get more than the next guy. Yuck.
Competitiveness is something I just don't like in most cases. I loath sports because of it.
On the rare occasions someone is advanced enough to compete for personal improvement and not for gloating or bragging rights, I can appreciate that, but it is seldom the case. As soon as (and I do mean the split second) a guy starts bragging about himself, the chances of me having sex with him dwindle to zero. It makes me want to puke. My last husband (an I DO mean last) used to get downright euphoric over winning a game of cards! He would ask me how it felt to be humiliated like that, as if I actually attatched my ego to a random game of chance! It was so stupid. All that really resulted was that I saw HIM as a disgusting, weak and insensitive person with a lot of learning to do. This is a whole chapter of male-ness that repulses me and makes it hard for me to like men in general. Then someone like you posts something like that and I have renewed hope.
I like a lot of other things about men, and fortunately there are some men who have overcome this tendancy. I believe what I wrote about the evolutionary process, I think the need for extreme dominance is over and there are just a lot of guys who haven't gotten the letter in the mail. We are in a place in our society where we are capable of much more than this, and brain COULD be worth more than braun, but sadly, it is not, not yet. I'm afraid our country's revived "traditional values" are setting back some of the progress we had made, and that makes me sad, but it's three steps forward, two steps back. I hate being in the backswing though, and I wonder how long it will take to get back to where we were just five years ago.
Strip away the false bravado, and what do you think these guys really think of themselves? Yeah, on the surface they think they're here to save the world, but just below the surface you'll find a frightened child who fears his coffer will never be full.
There lies the truer nature of man, kill or be killed. Win or die. You can have my gun when you take it from my cold, dead hands. Fear is a poor substitute for love, but ever is it the case. The opposite of love has never been hate, those two are analogous.
You've hit on a sore spot for me. I've known many men who were just as you described- adversarial to other men and nothing else. They treated other men as either a challege to overcome, the enemy, or just disregarded them altogether. Some come right out and say it, others are more quiet about it, but feel that way all the same. You can tell pretty quickly by the quality of their friendships with men, if they only have buddies but no close relationships with men, chances are they don't regard men very highly. I also know men who will only have buddies that they think are less attractive than themselves, which is creepy. Not every moment in life is a pussy-hunt nor should every friendship be centered around being able to get more than the next guy. Yuck.
Competitiveness is something I just don't like in most cases. I loath sports because of it.
On the rare occasions someone is advanced enough to compete for personal improvement and not for gloating or bragging rights, I can appreciate that, but it is seldom the case. As soon as (and I do mean the split second) a guy starts bragging about himself, the chances of me having sex with him dwindle to zero. It makes me want to puke. My last husband (an I DO mean last) used to get downright euphoric over winning a game of cards! He would ask me how it felt to be humiliated like that, as if I actually attatched my ego to a random game of chance! It was so stupid. All that really resulted was that I saw HIM as a disgusting, weak and insensitive person with a lot of learning to do. This is a whole chapter of male-ness that repulses me and makes it hard for me to like men in general. Then someone like you posts something like that and I have renewed hope.
I like a lot of other things about men, and fortunately there are some men who have overcome this tendancy. I believe what I wrote about the evolutionary process, I think the need for extreme dominance is over and there are just a lot of guys who haven't gotten the letter in the mail. We are in a place in our society where we are capable of much more than this, and brain COULD be worth more than braun, but sadly, it is not, not yet. I'm afraid our country's revived "traditional values" are setting back some of the progress we had made, and that makes me sad, but it's three steps forward, two steps back. I hate being in the backswing though, and I wonder how long it will take to get back to where we were just five years ago.
Strip away the false bravado, and what do you think these guys really think of themselves? Yeah, on the surface they think they're here to save the world, but just below the surface you'll find a frightened child who fears his coffer will never be full.
There lies the truer nature of man, kill or be killed. Win or die. You can have my gun when you take it from my cold, dead hands. Fear is a poor substitute for love, but ever is it the case. The opposite of love has never been hate, those two are analogous.
Heh. Thanks, man. I think you miscontrued me a bit. I'm not interested in the guy at all like that. That's just not how I swing.
It's just weird because, in my head... you know, one thing I envy about female same-sex friendships is just how easy and comfortable women can be confiding in one another, talking about feelings, getting hurt and showing it, and caring for other people. I don't think of men who have that capability are being feminine or unmanly. On the contrary, I'm pretty floored by it and utterly amazed. I think the one thing I really responded to in your post is that some part of you really, really, really wants to be that type of guy friend. Fuck what people think. You want to love and be loved and to know that you can have that type of relationship with both your girl friends and your guy friends.
I honestly wish I had an easy answer to that -- how to be that type of guy. I think you have to get some gray in your hair maybe before you really can have the capacity to love and be loved. Until then, just being thoughtful and considerate and reflective is good enough.
Heh. I have told some of my friends this before but I thought I'd share here. I'm not just into a bunch of typical guy things. I love women, but I won't cat-call them. Never ever. I love to flirt and have a good time. I have massive ADHD when it comes to keep track of sports teams. Sure, the Cubs barely inched a win over the Astros, but I only know that 'cause I caught it channel surfing. Couldn't tell you a damn thing else. I'd rather play.
And what some people have hinted around to is that, you know, maybe we're worse for wear when people won't let people explore a wide range of feelings, emotions, and relationships with others. 'Cause ain't it pretty sad that the guy's guy nowadays might become this metrosexual type character... and you know we still haven't figured out if that metro cat is gay or not.
I wanna see a Man's Man who feels just as comfortable giving his lady friend some love as he does giving his good guy chum a hug and maybe a kiss on the cheek after being gone for a period of time. When "I love you, bro" isn't something you say halfway into a fifth of vodka so you can excuse it later...
SpeedoGuy
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Sad, but, oh so true. And there is something wrong with me: I'm generally not very interested in traditional American sports. I don't watch much TV and I don't bother to keep track of arcane sports stats or trivia. This, of course, leaves me with few other options for bona fide conversation with men. Enter LPSG, one just a few places where I feel satisfied with the discourse on a variety of interesting topics.
SG
Sad, but, oh so true. And there is something wrong with me: I'm generally not very interested in traditional American sports. I don't watch much TV and I don't bother to keep track of arcane sports stats or trivia. This, of course, leaves me with few other options for bona fide conversation with men. Enter LPSG, one just a few places where I feel satisfied with the discourse on a variety of interesting topics.
SG
[post=348328]Quoted post[/post]
[/b][/quote]YES, you must be my long-lost twin brother!!! I feel/act the same way that you do. I really don't watch TV, at all. I don't keep track of sport stats or trivia or really sports at all for that matter. Thus, I've noticed that most of the people I can engage in intellectual conversations with are either women or gay men. I AM NOT SAYING THAT ALL STRAIGHT MEN ARE UNINTELLIGENT, ALL WOMEN ARE INTELLIGENT, OR ALL GAY MEN ARE INTELLIGENT. That would be a sweeping generalization. I'm just stating a repeated pattern that I've noticed.
However, I think it really is just a matter of getting to know that particular person.
In college it was quite a while before my roommate and I had, basically, anything to talk about, besides inconsequential things such as: pass me the remote, please; are you using this sweater tonight; sorry, is my music to loud?; you 'gonna' eat that? Nevertheless, after a while (and years of living together) he has become my best-friend and we can, literally, talk for hours. In addition, you add to one anothers lives: I must say, I know more about sports than I did before I met him and he knows more about the works Plato and Aristotle. LOL
madame_zora
Sexy Member
GoneA, that's the cool thing about making friends with people who are very different from us. When I first got into sales, I was surrounded by two types of people, male type As and then the other people who didn't sell, whether they were men or women. I didn't meet sucessful women for several months. I had to learn to understand how these driven men thought and it was pretty interesting, I learned a lot. They were open to talking to me because as a woman I wasn't seen as a threat. When I became somewhat sucessful, they still wouldn't confront me, they would sulk. They would go behind my back and whine to my boss. Eventually my boss asked me to stop reporting my sales on the blackboard because it was making the men feel bad! He was a bad leader.
I did meet several men who taught me the concept of competing with instead of competing against, and those lessons have been invaluable to me. In my personal experience, I have met mostly what you describe, a few straight men who could communicate openly but mostly women and gay men. I know that my personal experiences may not be representative of the whole population because I live in a pretty conservative area, but it's probably fairly true of my own area at least. I do find more younger men who are good communicators than men my own age or older, so I think things are heading in the right direction, but not fast enough for my taste.
I did meet several men who taught me the concept of competing with instead of competing against, and those lessons have been invaluable to me. In my personal experience, I have met mostly what you describe, a few straight men who could communicate openly but mostly women and gay men. I know that my personal experiences may not be representative of the whole population because I live in a pretty conservative area, but it's probably fairly true of my own area at least. I do find more younger men who are good communicators than men my own age or older, so I think things are heading in the right direction, but not fast enough for my taste.
I don't know what to say.First thing, I feel really good that Madame,Dee,Speedoguy,GoneA,Rich and other people here understand what I'm saying.Sometimes I think that I'm pretty alone in these feelings about being a different kind of guy.I'm lucky that I have a sweet girl friend & my best buddy. Now I feel lucky to have you all too on this site.You really seem to know what's going on inside me.Thanks. :loveya:
HSB, I have been watching this post develop, and now am starting to understand your original post. I am also realizing how mature you are, far beyond your years.
Hold on to your ideals of what a true friend should be. You will meet many many people over the years, and only a tiny percentage will fit those ideals. Don't settle for less, just cultivate those that do fit. You will be much happier in the long run.
My family moved to a different city just before I started in the second grade. I was the "outsider" for several years, and none of the other kids wanted to be seen talking to the new guy. I didn't really let it bother me. In junior high, a few of the others started to think that I was kinda cool, because I refused to cave in to peer pressure. By my freshman year, I was actually quite popular, in a non-standard sort of way. The friends I made during those 7th through 10th grade years were of high quality, simply because we didn't put artificial limits on. I am still close to this circle of friends, at the ripe old age of 46. There are about 20 of us, and we still get together as often as we can. Since I am the one of the group who has lived out of the area for so long, there is always a big party when I go back to visit family and friends. So, the point of this is, regardless of gender, orientation, ethnic/racial/cultural background, or age, don't waste time on people whom you know do not have the depth to be the kind of friends you want. The good ones are out there, and definitely worth the wait.
Jeff, when I first met you last year, I have to say that I thought you were an intelligent young guy, not to mention cute too! Ok, I don't like the word "cute" in reference to guys but I think it fits you. Handsome works too. I have this protective brother thing about you too, which I hope you can understand. Thank you for your friendship in 2005. I look forward to sharing more with you.
As far as this topic goes, I have to say that my girlfriend is always reminding me that for whatever reason some of us males use the women in our lives as a way of tuning into our more feeling sides. What I'm saying is that some guys connect with our emotions by being close to our female partners. We feel emotions through them. My girlfriend continually asks me what I'm feeling, and I have to admit that sometimes I don't know. I can't always idenitfy my feelings, where women just do it automatically. As I get older I find that I'm getting better at knowing what I'm feeling, especially more painful emotions like hurt and vulnerability. When I first felt that vulnerability, I didn't like it at all. But as I stayed with it, I learned quite a bit about my needs & about my girlfriend's needs. What I'm trying to say is that I find myself caring about my guy friends more & more as I discover my own emotions. I'm not sure I'll be changing the world but it sure makes my life more open and loving toward everyone. Thanks for this thread. You make me question my values and my motivations. R.
