Problems with Straight Guys

HungTeenStud · Oct 12, 2005

You know, I don't post on here much, but this is an interesting topic...

Being a straight guy born in San Francisco, I've obviously seen many gay men and women, had more than a few gay aquaintences, though have to admit no gay friends, and usually don't think twice about it. On the other hand I've been accused by a couple gay guys, online and in the real world, of being "hostile" towards them. The first time someone said that to me it bothered me, not because I cared if someone liked me, but because I think of hostile as an outwardling mean or menacing action, which I try to avoid generally.

Thinking about it over the past few years I've come to the realization that it's my reaction to being hit on by a gay guy after I already informed him a number of times that I was straight and not interested. I honestly think it's the closest I'll experience to what a hot girl must go through at a bar regularly. There was one occasion where I almost got into a fight with a gay guy at a bar because he wouldn't back off.

Now I obviously know that what I'm talking about isn't behavior that 9 out of 10 gay guys would ever exhibit. Hell, a lot of straight guys have this behavior when they hit on women too, with them it's usually described as being "macho", not sure if there is a gay term for it. However, watching some of my straight friends reactions after I've been hit on by a gay guy, I can see how it adds to someone's homophobia who is already prone to it, especially when they don't normally have much exposure to openly gay people (not passing judgment here, just analyzing).

Lately I've been getting a lot of Instant Messages when I'm online from gay guys and if they start to flirt or turn the conversation sexual I've noticed my patience for it, especially after I've informed them I was straight, has decreased. I'm just not sure what to say, other than start to get angry, after I told a guy I'm straight 5 times and he keeps saying he wants to suck my dick or something. In the end I know this is a minority of the gay population, I just think a less tolerant person might use incidents like that as an excuse to continue being homophobic.

Anyway, just my experience/thoughts so far.

GoneA · Oct 13, 2005

One bad apple spoils it for the bunch.

It's unfortunate, but I see why that 'promotes' homophobia. I've been hit on by gay guys...but they always seem to get the hint that 'I'm not gay'. I guess this is why I can readily befriend homosexual people. In your case, because of your experiences, I see why this is not so with you.

Although I think it's quite, err, interesting how the reverse seems not to be true; at least from my standpoint. Many times, for no good reason, heterosexual men tend to demonstrate churlish behavior towards homosexual men. Yet, this doesn't seem to prevent homosexual men from befriending heterosexual men.

madame_zora · Oct 13, 2005

HungTeenStud, you drew a good parallel between what you experienced from a gay man and what women deal with from straight men all the time. No means no! Regardless of the gender or sexuality of the person being pursued, if they're not interested, it's offensive as hell to continue pursuit once that point has been made known.

I'm glad you realise that the vast majority of gay men are not lechers. Honestly this is predominantly a MAN thing, there are just some who don't know when to take a fucking hike! I don't know too many women who would press the issue once they'd been shot down.

Anyway, welcome to the board!

Matthew · Oct 13, 2005

Originally posted by HungTeenStud@Oct 12 2005, 06:49 PM
You know, I don't post on here much, but this is an interesting topic...

Being a straight guy born in San Francisco, I've obviously seen many gay men and women, had more than a few gay aquaintences, though have to admit no gay friends, and usually don't think twice about it. On the other hand I've been accused by a couple gay guys, online and in the real world, of being "hostile" towards them. The first time someone said that to me it bothered me, not because I cared if someone liked me, but because I think of hostile as an outwardling mean or menacing action, which I try to avoid generally.

Thinking about it over the past few years I've come to the realization that it's my reaction to being hit on by a gay guy after I already informed him a number of times that I was straight and not interested. I honestly think it's the closest I'll experience to what a hot girl must go through at a bar regularly. There was one occasion where I almost got into a fight with a gay guy at a bar because he wouldn't back off.

Now I obviously know that what I'm talking about isn't behavior that 9 out of 10 gay guys would ever exhibit. Hell, a lot of straight guys have this behavior when they hit on women too, with them it's usually described as being "macho", not sure if there is a gay term for it. However, watching some of my straight friends reactions after I've been hit on by a gay guy, I can see how it adds to someone's homophobia who is already prone to it, especially when they don't normally have much exposure to openly gay people (not passing judgment here, just analyzing).

Lately I've been getting a lot of Instant Messages when I'm online from gay guys and if they start to flirt or turn the conversation sexual I've noticed my patience for it, especially after I've informed them I was straight, has decreased. I'm just not sure what to say, other than start to get angry, after I told a guy I'm straight 5 times and he keeps saying he wants to suck my dick or something. In the end I know this is a minority of the gay population, I just think a less tolerant person might use incidents like that as an excuse to continue being homophobic.

Anyway, just my experience/thoughts so far.

[post=351018]Quoted post[/post]

Thanks, I thought that was really honest and well thought out.

BruceSter · Oct 13, 2005

Originally posted by Kimahri@Oct 12 2005, 02:46 PM
This thread is straight from Dr Phil. Just kidding.

HSB and Brucester. You guys are very articulate and I'm enjoying going back and forth with your points. Not to pick sides, HSB, you seem really on about Brucester. Was there an offending comment or something he said that got you bothered by him?

As a gay man, let me throw this out. I respect both parties opinions and am not offended by anything that's been said. From my education and experience standpoint, I echo the sentiments about sexuality and its diversity.

At some point, you guys will have to agree to disagree. How can I use you two in a photoshoot if you're trying to kill each other?

Again, just kidding. Trying to add some humor here.

R

[post=350912]Quoted post[/post]

Even though I'm not asked, I feel competent to state something here - the trigger of this dreaded issue was my "offensive" and "mean" (quotes) clarification that I don't consider ANY form of sex with a gay man as appealing to me.

But I chime in here - what's causing your (HSB) ferocity about battering any of my statements?

Bruce

bigeight_98 · Oct 13, 2005

Originally posted by BruceSter+Oct 13 2005, 10:08 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BruceSter @ Oct 13 2005, 10:08 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Kimahri@Oct 12 2005, 02:46 PM
This thread is straight from Dr Phil. Just kidding.

HSB and Brucester. You guys are very articulate and I'm enjoying going back and forth with your points. Not to pick sides, HSB, you seem really on about Brucester. Was there an offending comment or something he said that got you bothered by him?

As a gay man, let me throw this out. I respect both parties opinions and am not offended by anything that's been said. From my education and experience standpoint, I echo the sentiments about sexuality and its diversity.

At some point, you guys will have to agree to disagree. How can I use you two in a photoshoot if you're trying to kill each other?

Again, just kidding. Trying to add some humor here.

R

[post=350912]Quoted post[/post]

Even though I'm not asked, I feel competent to state something here - the trigger of this dreaded issue was my "offensive" and "mean" (quotes) clarification that I don't consider ANY form of sex with a gay man as appealing to me.

But I chime in here - what's causing your (HSB) ferocity about battering any of my statements?

Bruce

[post=351319]Quoted post[/post]

[/b][/quote]

Um, what you actually said was "I have no interest in exchanging affection of whatsoever kind with a man. ... ex or affection exchanges with a man are no-go's for me. " I think that's what a lot of guys on this board (not just HSB) found offensive. Maybe you didn't really mean you'd never give a consoling hug to a male friend who was grief-stricken because he had just lost his mother (for example), or an affectionate hug to a long-lost male friend you hadn't seen in years, but that's how it came across.

Do I think you really meant to say that? No, given the fact that (a) you're a member of this group, which says a lot about your open-mindedness, and (b) you've posted a number of reasoned, intelligent comments that a Neanderthal wouldn't have been able to articulate. However, I do think your refusal to back down has somewhat put you in the position of poster boy for the "caveman crowd," which is unfortunate.

taven · Oct 13, 2005

Originally posted by madame_zora@Oct 12 2005, 10:22 PM
HungTeenStud, you drew a good parallel between what you experienced from a gay man and what women deal with from straight men all the time. No means no! Regardless of the gender or sexuality of the person being pursued, if they're not interested, it's offensive as hell to continue pursuit once that point has been made known.

I'm glad you realise that the vast majority of gay men are not lechers. Honestly this is predominantly a MAN thing, there are just some who don't know when to take a fucking hike! I don't know too many women who would press the issue once they'd been shot down.

Anyway, welcome to the board!

[post=351108]Quoted post[/post]

Mme Z
I agree that this behavior tends to be more of a man thing, but I had to laugh when I recalled an incident with a tenacious woman one time. She wanted me to go to her room (we were at a convention) and I said I was flattered but no. She was so persisitent I actually felt creepy and somewhat scared of the situation before she backed off. It did eventually have some negative work related repercussions for me, but nothing too major.

GoneA · Oct 14, 2005

Ones inability to get the hint is horrible. I must agree, that is namely a heterosexual male custom. I will admit, sometimes I fall victim to that very same tendency - yet to a much lesser degree. Some guys are just unremitting in their pursuit of a particular woman and surprisingly become indignant when they are rejected. However, I contribute that to the male unfortunate need to be assertive, while mentally figuring that by way of their aggression they can acquire what they are pursing. Women like men with confidence; yet, when confidence becomes arrogance, and arrogance grows to be belligerence, women are turned off. Therefore, oh ye men who fit this report, get used to stretching out in your bed as youll be the only one in it for many more nights.

BruceSter · Oct 14, 2005

Originally posted by bigeight_98@Oct 13 2005, 10:46 AM
Um, what you actually said was "I have no interest in exchanging affection of whatsoever kind with a man. ... ex or affection exchanges with a man are no-go's for me. " I think that's what a lot of guys on this board (not just HSB) found offensive. Maybe you didn't really mean you'd never give a consoling hug to a male friend who was grief-stricken because he had just lost his mother (for example), or an affectionate hug to a long-lost male friend you hadn't seen in years, but that's how it came across.

Do I think you really meant to say that? No, given the fact that (a) you're a member of this group, which says a lot about your open-mindedness, and (b) you've posted a number of reasoned, intelligent comments that a Neanderthal wouldn't have been able to articulate. However, I do think your refusal to back down has somewhat put you in the position of poster boy for the "caveman crowd," which is unfortunate.

[post=351330]Quoted post[/post]

That's exactly what I said, thank you - and I mean it. Not offensive - I might add in that I apologized to those who felt it offensive - but straight-out. Still, I'm no "huggy" type, and I don't expect that from others, I rely less on outward signs than on what's said, and one thing I never liked were overstuffed expressions of grieve. I suppose you are referring to my mother's death - I was six years old then and don't have many memories to it, but I remember that at some point I felt annoyed by all the guests of the ceremony hugging me and telling me how awfully sorry they are.

And what's the caveman crowd?

Bruce

GoneA · Oct 14, 2005

Originally posted by BruceSter+Oct 14 2005, 05:56 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BruceSter @ Oct 14 2005, 05:56 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-bigeight_98@Oct 13 2005, 10:46 AM
Um, what you actually said was "I have no interest in exchanging affection of whatsoever kind with a man. ... ex or affection exchanges with a man are no-go's for me. " I think that's what a lot of guys on this board (not just HSB) found offensive. Maybe you didn't really mean you'd never give a consoling hug to a male friend who was grief-stricken because he had just lost his mother (for example), or an affectionate hug to a long-lost male friend you hadn't seen in years, but that's how it came across.

Do I think you really meant to say that? No, given the fact that (a) you're a member of this group, which says a lot about your open-mindedness, and (b) you've posted a number of reasoned, intelligent comments that a Neanderthal wouldn't have been able to articulate. However, I do think your refusal to back down has somewhat put you in the position of poster boy for the "caveman crowd," which is unfortunate.

[post=351330]Quoted post[/post]

And what's the caveman crowd?

Bruce

[post=351578]Quoted post[/post]
[/b][/quote]

A group of men who speak very rough English, who wear leaves for underwear, and still 'clobber' people with huge tree branches. I used to be one. :hiding:

Dorset · Oct 14, 2005

Originally posted by BruceSter@Oct 14 2005, 05:56 AM
I'm no "huggy" type, and I don't expect that from others, I rely less on outward signs than on what's said, and one thing I never liked were overstuffed expressions of grieve.
Bruce

[post=351578]Quoted post[/post]

There's nothing wrong with this at all, I'm very much the same, if I'm in need of consoling then do it verbaly, I don't need a hug 'cos I'm an adult! I don't think it's odd that other people do though because some people just do things differently.

I would however hug someone if I felt that it would mean something to them and they were in genuine distress, that's just a bit of give and take, it's means nothing much to me but if it makes them feel better then it doesn't take much to make the effort

B_hungrick · Oct 15, 2005

Originally posted by BruceSter+Oct 13 2005, 09:56 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BruceSter @ Oct 13 2005, 09:56 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-bigeight_98@Oct 13 2005, 10:46 AM
Um, what you actually said was "I have no interest in exchanging affection of whatsoever kind with a man. ... ex or affection exchanges with a man are no-go's for me. " I think that's what a lot of guys on this board (not just HSB) found offensive. Maybe you didn't really mean you'd never give a consoling hug to a male friend who was grief-stricken because he had just lost his mother (for example), or an affectionate hug to a long-lost male friend you hadn't seen in years, but that's how it came across.

Do I think you really meant to say that? No, given the fact that (a) you're a member of this group, which says a lot about your open-mindedness, and (b) you've posted a number of reasoned, intelligent comments that a Neanderthal wouldn't have been able to articulate. However, I do think your refusal to back down has somewhat put you in the position of poster boy for the "caveman crowd," which is unfortunate.

[post=351330]Quoted post[/post]

That's exactly what I said, thank you - and I mean it. Not offensive - I might add in that I apologized to those who felt it offensive - but straight-out. Still, I'm no "huggy" type, and I don't expect that from others, I rely less on outward signs than on what's said, and one thing I never liked were overstuffed expressions of grieve. I suppose you are referring to my mother's death - I was six years old then and don't have many memories to it, but I remember that at some point I felt annoyed by all the guests of the ceremony hugging me and telling me how awfully sorry they are.

And what's the caveman crowd?

Bruce

[post=351578]Quoted post[/post]
[/b][/quote]

Hey, Bruce where do you live? Have you completely missed the last 30 years of women's liberation, men's liberation, gay/lesbian liberation, disabled people's liberation, etc.?

I'm going to explain how what you said originally is offensive to me and, I suppose, to others on this list. First, it has to do with the tone of your words. They express either an outright disgust with males in general terms, or a more subtle disregard for them. This attitude seems regressive and primitive, thus the reference to you as a "caveman". You know what I'm saying? (The dumb caveman drags his female by the hair) Also for me your avatar is a bit scarey. If it's actually you or a reference to you, the pose is "college fratboy dumb". Are you getting what I'm saying yet? You continue to defend your words and attitude as just who you are. I can understand how you might feel that being a "huggy type" is not appropriate for you, but to others, it seems an indication of insensitivity, fear of intimacy, competitiveness to a fault, lack of self-awareness, and closed-mindedness. There are those of us who feel that the views you express are defensive of another age, when men were men ( & you don't trust the bastards), and the girls did what they were told. You know, keep them barefoot and pregnant. And if some queer looks at me funny, I'll beat the shit out of him.

It's hard for me to believe that you don't understand what you've said is offensive. Maybe this attempt at an explanation will help.

steve319 · Oct 15, 2005

Originally posted by GoneA@Oct 14 2005, 02:10 AM
I used to be one. :hiding:

[post=351585]Quoted post[/post]

Yeah, in a way, I used to be one too. Or at least I was raised to be one but it didn't exactly "take" with me totally.

Living life the way I used to proved to be unhealthy for me. I was distant, cold, unemotional, and judgmental. I was ineffective as a mate, friend, and teacher, and it was weighing heavily on me for the harm that I was actively causing others with my behavior (let me stress that was just ME--being relatively undemonstrative with emotions doesn't have to be harmful to others, but it was in my case). So I decided to change my approach. And I'm a better person for it, really, and of much more "use" to those around me.

I'm even a better, stronger leader in my job because of my willingness to tackle the tough issues with honesty and straightforward openness. I'm now sort of the go-to guy to do confrontations and interventions, and I could never have managed that behind my walls.

I'm glad to see that this topic has become a bit less confrontational. Or at least the digs have gotten more subtle. Maybe that's a step toward seeing them disappear altogether.

I'll resist the urge to unleash some kind of fucking sappy group hug thing.

BruceSter · Oct 15, 2005

Originally posted by hungrick@Oct 15 2005, 01:29 AM
Hey, Bruce where do you live? Have you completely missed the last 30 years of women's liberation, men's liberation, gay/lesbian liberation, disabled people's liberation, etc.?

I'm going to explain how what you said originally is offensive to me and, I suppose, to others on this list. First, it has to do with the tone of your words. They express either an outright disgust with males in general terms, or a more subtle disregard for them. This attitude seems regressive and primitive, thus the reference to you as a "caveman". You know what I'm saying? (The dumb caveman drags his female by the hair) Also for me your avatar is a bit scarey. If it's actually you or a reference to you, the pose is "college fratboy dumb". Are you getting what I'm saying yet? You continue to defend your words and attitude as just who you are. I can understand how you might feel that being a "huggy type" is not appropriate for you, but to others, it seems an indication of insensitivity, fear of intimacy, competitiveness to a fault, lack of self-awareness, and closed-mindedness. There are those of us who feel that the views you express are defensive of another age, when men were men ( & you don't trust the bastards), and the girls did what they were told. You know, keep them barefoot and pregnant. And if some queer looks at me funny, I'll beat the shit out of him.

It's hard for me to believe that you don't understand what you've said is offensive. Maybe this attempt at an explanation will help.

[post=351950]Quoted post[/post]

Hi Hungrick,

if at all, I just missed the first eight years, give some, of all those liberations - because I am 22 years old, and so wasn't born then - well, just some fun. But you are talking nonsense regarding that - "liberated" women couldn't have a bigger fan than me. I have always appreciated independent and self-conscious women and disapproved of this newly come-up silver ring shit (you know, saving virginity till wedding night). My lady friend is very successful in the oil business, has chosen career over marriage and family, and wouldn't even think about starting going barefoot and pregnant, which I'm completely fine with - I like to rise up to the challenge that independent women represent to most men. Also, do you think I'd have stayed on a board where the majority of the male members (!?) is either completely gay or has severe gay tendencies? Re-think about that before you make assumptions based on flimsy evidence.

I don't think my views are defensive, from another age, or outdated. If you want to drag the discussion to things like women's/men's/gay's etc. liberation, then you can have my opinion on it - just because women take more and more male positions (with deficites, admittedly), that shouldn't make men step back and yield to that movement by bashing all classic meanings of manliness.

And no, I still don't understand what's so offensive of underpinning my misunderstood clear no.

Bruce

panthera · Oct 15, 2005

I wish we would all take the "be and let be" aspect of lpsg. just a wee bit more seriously. Much of the discussion of what is (and is not) male is very culturally determined.
When I moved to Germany in the 1980's I was, by San Franciscan standards, very "touchy-feelly". Here in Europe - at least from here going south - I would fit in somewhere about cave-man level for straight men in terms of physical affection.
O my whiskers and paws, this is now the third time I have been moved to comment in the last days. Can't we just let Bruce be Bruce? I've read just about everything he has ever written here (lots of time sitting on trains the last few days...) and while I don't share his opinions on a lot of things, I do think he is a decent heterosexual man.
Since the thought of sex with a woman doesn't appeal to me, I can see where someone might feel the same way about men.
Unless he were physically attractive, of course...Make your avatar into some wimpy 98 pound weakling, Bruce, and I bet we'll all only respect you for your brains... :toast:
Genug ist genug. Back on topic:
The fact that men are willing to engage in discussions and work on changing their - oftimes destructive - behaviour seems proof to me of our humanity. Comments?

dcwrestlefan · Oct 15, 2005

Originally posted by panthera@Oct 15 2005, 04:13 PM
Can't we just let Bruce be Bruce? I've read just about everything he has ever written here (lots of time sitting on trains the last few days...) and while I don't share his opinions on a lot of things, I do think he is a decent heterosexual man.

[post=352067]Quoted post[/post]

Total agreement. I think some here are just pissed he has no attraction for guys.
Get over it.

B_hungrick · Oct 15, 2005

Originally posted by dcwrestlefan+Oct 15 2005, 02:36 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dcwrestlefan @ Oct 15 2005, 02:36 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-panthera@Oct 15 2005, 04:13 PM
Can't we just let Bruce be Bruce? I've read just about everything he has ever written here (lots of time sitting on trains the last few days...) and while I don't share his opinions on a lot of things, I do think he is a decent heterosexual man.

[post=352067]Quoted post[/post]

Total agreement. I think some here are just pissed he has no attraction for guys.
Get over it.

[post=352113]Quoted post[/post]

[/b][/quote]

Well, DCW, I'm not pissed at Bruce because he doesn't have attraction for guys. I'm straight so I don't care who he likes. I think your comment is out of line also. The problem with Bruce's attitude is the same as the problem with George Bush's attitude. Are we getting closer to the truth now? If as a straight guy I have no concern for other human beings because they're male, then they become objects to me. I don't have to respect them, like them, acknowledge them, or deal with them at all. What happens when the majority of males feels this way is that we've created a society which treats half of us as human fodder. We send them off to war to get killed or maimed. If any society truly cared about its people, male as well as female, it would treat all of us with dignity and compassion. I don't think this is a cultural issue. I think it goes to the heart of societal problems. It's not about whether a person is decent or not. It's about how we treat each other.

I sense that those of you who think that we need to just let Bruce be Bruce don't understand what he's saying at all. It's not about hugging people or who you like to fuck. It's much bigger than that in my book. I think that's also why there's discussion and disagreement about it.

dcwrestlefan · Oct 15, 2005

Originally posted by hungrick+Oct 15 2005, 08:36 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hungrick @ Oct 15 2005, 08:36 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by dcwrestlefan@Oct 15 2005, 02:36 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-panthera

Click to expand...

@Oct 15 2005, 04:13 PM
Can't we just let Bruce be Bruce? I've read just about everything he has ever written here (lots of time sitting on trains the last few days...) and while I don't share his opinions on a lot of things, I do think he is a decent heterosexual man.

[post=352067]Quoted post[/post]

Click to expand...

Total agreement. I think some here are just pissed he has no attraction for guys.
Get over it.

[post=352113]Quoted post[/post]

Well, DCW, I'm not pissed at Bruce because he doesn't have attraction for guys. I'm straight so I don't care who he likes. I think your comment is out of line also. The problem with Bruce's attitude is the same as the problem with George Bush's attitude. Are we getting closer to the truth now? If as a straight guy I have no concern for other human beings because they're male, then they become objects to me. I don't have to respect them, like them, acknowledge them, or deal with them at all. What happens when the majority of males feels this way is that we've created a society which treats half of us as human fodder. We send them off to war to get killed or maimed. If any society truly cared about its people, male as well as female, it would treat all of us with dignity and compassion. I don't think this is a cultural issue. I think it goes to the heart of societal problems. It's not about whether a person is decent or not. It's about how we treat each other.

I sense that those of you who think that we need to just let Bruce be Bruce don't understand what he's saying at all. It's not about hugging people or who you like to fuck. It's much bigger than that in my book. I think that's also why there's discussion and disagreement about it.

[post=352131]Quoted post[/post]

[/b][/quote]

Not harshing on you, but this post makes me scratch my head.

I don't think he hates men. If you can show me a post that indicates otherwise, I'll listen. I'm not attracted to women. Doesn't mean I hate them. What does George Bush and the war have to do with this topic? I hate them both also.

BruceSter · Oct 17, 2005

I don't hate men - not at all. Just because I don't have many feelings for them, that doesn't induce that I regard them as objects, or someTHING to be dealt with. I wonder how dense some of the posters in this issue are - they can't stop turning everything I say into something negative and then getting personal about it. Hey - who can explain me what I have to do with Georgie-Boy Bush?

I am not old-fashioned, and don't regard my views as outdated. I have been raised along the old-school rules of what makes a man, and I am glad - no one, neither any woman I've been with, nor any of my co-workers or buddies has ever complained. In fact, until now, I have never gotten any complaints.

Bruce

B_Hung Muscle · Oct 17, 2005

I'm not sure I understand all the aspects of this discussion -- it sounds like something only straight guys get all the nuance to.

In any case, Bruce, those aren't really pics of you anyway, right? Bigwhitecocklover Lauren has a pic in her gallery that looks just like one of yours and is the pic of a guy called Hung Honey from Washington State who famously sold pics of himself (and his underwear) on eBay.

I don't see the "caveman" aspects to the pics, but I guess I see Hungrick's point how they could be interpreted that way.

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