prop 8 upheld by ca. supreme court

B_Stronzo

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Interesting to me Guy-jin how so many black Americans voted against same sex marriage in California.

It's a confoundment to me (though historically understandable) that a race brought here against its will and force-fed Christianity would now use that same theology to marginalize another minority who have been struggling for acceptance for centuries.

Both the civil rights movement and the gay rights movement began at the same time. It never ceases to amaze me how many black people get angry when you compare the two struggles.

Yup. You're right. "They're called Christians mate". No need to "look it up" though. We're all-too-clear on where many of them stand.

Pity the inconsistency.
 

B_VinylBoy

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Everything about prop 8 was influenced by religion. And not just Christianity and its long stemming roots to bastardize homosexuality, as there was a huge financial investment made by Mormons to help pass it as well.

Anyone trying to limit this simply on the African American community is just that... simple. Can't understand why it takes a gay black man to see this.
 

B_Stronzo

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Everything about prop 8 was influenced by religion. And not just Christianity and its long stemming roots to bastardize homosexuality, as there was a huge financial investment made by Mormons to help pass it as well.

Anyone trying to limit this simply on the African American community is just that... simple. Can't understand why it takes a gay black man to see this.


For clarification's sake VinylBoy let me say that I wasn't limiting this to black Americans. But that phenomenon is in there too. It's undeniable. No one (certainly not I anyway) is trying to limit this to "African Americans". I hold those bastards (mostly white) in the Mormon sect equally culpable.

But equally you cannot deny that there are major issues around the placement of black males in this society from a perceived "masculine" point of view. I don't say it's not historically understandable. I've already said it is. But I'm waaaaaaay tired of paying the price for two-dimensional thinking that requites the need in ANY hetero male to feel as though his masculinity (whatever that REALLY means) is intact and not perceived as "gay". It's just too tiresome.

I belong to several political blogs where black Americans are very inclusive in their thinking when (until and only until) it comes to the comparison of civil right for them and for the gay community. This makes no sense to me. It's as though they think our struggles (those of gay ppl irrespective of race) pale in comparison.

I resent the implication.

Additionally it's as though we (I use the collective "we" in the sense that I mean all gay people) appear to be viewed identically to the way some white Christians view us; on the outside fringes of this society.

This is the phenomenon to which I refer.

There's nothing racial in it other than to wonder why intelligent black Americans cannot see that they've been duped by Christianity and bought into something imposed on them.

Perhaps the ONLY man that could "get this" is a gay black man.

No. I'm wrong. I get it and I'm a gay white man.
 
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B_VinylBoy

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For clarification's sake VinylBoy let me say that I wasn't limiting this to black Americans. But that phenomenon is in there too. It's undeniable. No one (certainly not I anyway) is trying to limit this to "African Americans". I hold those bastards (mostly white) in the Mormon sect equally culpable.

But equally you cannot deny that there are major issues around the placement of black males in this society from a perceived "masculine" point of view. I don't say it's not historically understandable. I've already said it is. But I'm waaaaaaay tired of paying the price for two-dimensional thinking that requites the need in ANY hetero male to feel as though his masculinity (whatever that REALLY means) is intact and not perceived as "gay". It's just too tiresome.

I belong to several political blogs where black Americans are very inclusive in their thinking when (until and only until) it comes to the comparison of civil right for them and for the gay community. This makes no sense to me. It's as though they think our struggles (those of gay ppl irrespective of race) pale in comparison.

I resent the implication.

Additionally it's as though we (I use the collective "we" in the sense that I mean all gay people) appear to be viewed identically to the way some white Christians view us; on the outside fringes of this society.

This is the phenomenon to which I refer.

There's nothing racial in it other than to wonder why intelligent black Americans cannot see that they've been duped by Christianity and bought into something imposed on them.

Perhaps the ONLY man that could "get this" is a gay black man.

No. I'm wrong. I get it and I'm a gay white man.

Stronzo, I do think we're on the same page on some level.
I do agree that there's a major problem with the African American community and their perception towards gays & lesbians in this country. That can't be denied because it has always been there for as long as I can remember. However, I can't stand it when certain Facequeens bring up the subject as if they were the deciding factor in the passing of Prop 8. Because as a gay man (and I'm sure you can vouch for this as well), people who don't like gays & lesbians cross all races. It's not as if there's some magical racial demographic that is all loving and all understanding on this issue. I've been attacked verbally and physically by many people of different colors about being gay, and they all have certain characteristics that are the same.

1. They're Heterosexual or identify themselves as one
2. They are raised in surroundings that puts very high regard to religion

When the Facequeens of our world point out the 75% of black people who voted in California for the passing of prop 8, they only point to about 750,000 people. What about the other 4 million plus that voted for it as well? What about their races and why isn't their skin color such a factor? The reality is, we shouldn't be looking at this issue as a racially divided one at all. Looking at most things on a racial scale usually never gets to the real source of the problem. I already listed 2 things that the mass majority of the people who voted yes on the measure share. We should be focused on that instead of putting the magnifying glass on just the African Americans and only fixing essentially 1/4th of the problem.
 

B_Stronzo

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Stronzo, I do think we're on the same page on some level.
I do agree that there's a major problem with the African American community and their perception towards gays & lesbians in this country. That can't be denied because it has always been there for as long as I can remember. However, I can't stand it when certain Facequeens bring up the subject as if they were the deciding factor in the passing of Prop 8.

Loud and clear. Check your pms in a few.


Because as a gay man (and I'm sure you can vouch for this as well), people who don't like gays & lesbians cross all races. It's not as if there's some magical racial demographic that is all loving and all understanding on this issue. I've been attacked verbally and physically by many people of different colors about being gay, and they all have certain characteristics that are the same.

1. They're Heterosexual or identify themselves as one
2. They are raised in surroundings that puts very high regard to religion

When the Facequeens of our world point out the 75% of black people who voted in California for the passing of prop 8, they only point to about 750,000 people. What about the other 4 million plus that voted for it as well? What about their races and why isn't their skin color such a factor? The reality is, we shouldn't be looking at this issue as a racially divided one at all. Looking at most things on a racial scale usually never gets to the real source of the problem. I already listed 2 things that the mass majority of the people who voted yes on the measure share. We should be focused on that instead of putting the magnifying glass on just the African Americans and only fixing essentially 1/4th of the problem.

You have a unique perspective in this VinylBoy to which I am not personally privy firshand. I have consummate respect for that.

The thing that's gotten me.. I mean really stuck in my craw VB ... is that I realize historically black Americans have had little offered them in the way of community. The early black Church (the white man's religion though it was) became a safe haven. I get that. I'm glad it was there.

But you and I as gay men know that Christianity (as do most religions) corrupt human nature (at least I'm assuming you do by what you write). I'm not anti-Christianity nor am I necessarily anti-religion. I'm anti-STUPIDITY. So wherever that puts me in the religious spectrum I accept that placement.

I have two houses in Massachusetts.

One is very isolated and pretty much heaven (should there be such a thing :wink:) on earth.

The other is an 18th century house in a multi-racial neighborhood. It's the oldest house in the city and my other half and I bought it because of it's worn beauty and historical significance. We've owned it just ten years now. We've watched this diverse neighborhood change remarkably in these ten years. I was naive enough to believe (I swear .. no lie) that coming into this neighborhood those ten years ago we'd encounter (since largely the neighborhood is peopled by black residents) an acceptance since both blacks and gays are minorities.

Yup. I was naive. When in my all-white neighborhood no one's ever once yelled "fuckin' faggot" at me. In the city neighborhood I've heard it easily six times. It cuts like a knife as I'm sure you can imagine.

I hate what white America has done to black Americans to somehow make black males (by the way I've never seen so much closeted homosexual activity in my life since I bought the house in the city) think they have to somehow promote some nonsensical notion of masculinity. Additionally I realize that from a generational standpoint it's white Americans who have relegated black American males to promote UBER masculinity in their ranks.

Please understand me when I tell you I mean black Americans NO offense.. but I gotta tell ya the Prop 8 thing did throw me. Should it be harped on as the sole reason it passed? No. The Mormons (people who believed Joseph Smith found gold plates in the New York State woods!!:eek:) ought to be held most accountable in my view since they hurled immense amounts of money at its passing. And the Mormons only included black men in their priesthood in the 1970s I believe. :rolleyes:

Anyhow check your pm. I do believe we're on the same page.
 

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I hate what white America has done to black Americans to somehow make black males (by the way I've never seen so much closeted homosexual activity in my life since I bought the house in the city) think they have to somehow promote some nonsensical notion of masculinity. Additionally I realize that from a generational standpoint it's white Americans who have relegated black American males to promote UBER masculinity in their ranks.

Bad whitey... still the cause for ALL minority ills (at least according to Stronzo).
 

B_VinylBoy

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Such a shame you are getting worked up over something I have NEVER said. You know it, I know it, the American ppl know it.

But the fact you've said it or at least mentioned it at least five or six times BEFORE THIS clearly shows you believe it to some level. Honestly, I don't give a damn what you believe. However, don't act as if people aren't paying attention to your bullshit. Actions speak a lot louder than words, and in your case they both say the exact same thing.
 

faceking

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Good to see you posting true to form faceking.

I trust all is well in your life?


Speaking of... was just thinking/realizing... "welcome back" it's been about 2 years? Despite your lack of wherewithall... welcome back (I kid..... about the 'welcome back' part... I kid).

It's just this constant throwing out the race card... especially by fault of bad old whitey even amongst/within communities,... that you don't realize you are diminishing the cause of racism. It's the left throwing the race card out at every turn, that pulls a "cry wolf" string far too often. Reminds me of what shambles are left of women's rights proponents, that fire out a cerebral hailstorm on "right to choose", but the Muslim religion and treatment of women is... frankly, off limits. If they truly cared...

Despite VB's pathetic pym-like attempts to put words in my mouth...(what next Vinyl Bitch... you are going to take a sarcastic statement from me like pym, and put it in your sig?). I've only been merely pointing out that there's this 'Christians are 100% responsible for the pro-Prop 8 movement'. And while that is somewhat true, there are other demographics to "visit"... here Vinyl Bitch can't find anything, and I'm having to re-state my take on this facet of the situation. And here I defend dickheads like that.. yikes.

You're blaming white ppl hip-hop/gangster culture and the lack of gayrights thereof... seriously?

hope all is well...
 
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SEXXXX

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trying to find common ground in the long discussion above:

majority of minorities is FOR prop 8, true/false?
 

faceking

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When the Facequeens of our world point out the 75% of black people who voted in California for the passing of prop 8, they only point to about 750,000 people. What about the other 4 million plus that voted for it as well? What about their races and why isn't their skin color such a factor? The reality is, we shouldn't be looking at this issue as a racially divided one at all. Looking at most things on a racial scale usually never gets to the real source of the problem. I already listed 2 things that the mass majority of the people who voted yes on the measure share. We should be focused on that instead of putting the magnifying glass on just the African Americans and only fixing essentially 1/4th of the problem.

We're not putting a magnifying glass on just African Americans... all I've been challenging you to do.. is open that up, since you seem to have it with ant-like precision (as most gays do) on religion, and solely on religion. Hispanics should be included in this arguments... as should ppl with families, and ppl with or without children. Unmarried and childless ppl voted overwheminly against the proposition, and vice versa. I saw/heard little of these demographics here... all I saw here was attacks on the church. Me thinks a lot of 'regular' child-bearing families can think for themselves, and frankly here in California think the Mormon Church as 'freaky'.

70% of black voters were against gays getting "married", roughly 65% of Christians who voted, voted pro-Prop 8. If I cared to school you more, I could grab an even 'liberal biased' stat on how many Afr/Amer are identified/practicing Christians. Then again, it's pointless, since it's whitey's fault.
 

faceking

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trying to find common ground in the long discussion above:

majority of minorities is FOR prop 8, true/false?

A summation of exit polls (for take it for what it's worth)

Hispanics = FOR
African Americans = FOR
"Other" = FOR
Asian = AGAINST (slightly)

Whitey = AGAINST

Unions = FOR
Non-union = SPLIT

Those are only exit polls. Odd given the racial 'plight' of the first two groups... (think MLK and Chavez), yet the hypocrisy in "human rights". Homeys don't play it, I guess.
 

B_VinylBoy

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No Facequeen, I'm fine with coming up with my own slanderous comments for you. Thank you very much. Also, where have I ever blamed the white community got anything on this board? I'll give you a hint... I HAVEN'T. Whereas you have brought up the African American community several times in regards to Prop 8, as well as countless number of "reverse racism" calls. Should I post a list for everyone to review?

And BTW, I can think of a worse 5-letter B word to call you than bitch, and in your case the title would be quite accurate. Think twice before responding, because I'm more than ready to embarrass you.
 

faceking

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No Facequeen, I'm fine with coming up with my own slanderous comments for you. Thank you very much. Also, where have I ever blamed the white community got anything on this board? I'll give you a hint... I HAVEN'T. Whereas you have brought up the African American community several times in regards to Prop 8, as well as countless number of "reverse racism" calls. Should I post a list for everyone to review?

And BTW, I can think of a worse 5-letter B word to call you than bitch, and in your case the title would be quite accurate. Think twice before responding, because I'm more than ready to embarrass you.

It was Stronzo your new bestfriend blaming whitey. I know darn well, how many times I've brought it up... but I'll bet ya it is 4x less than your anti-church drivel. And while I'm at it... why haven't you lambasted married/child-rearing families, the core of American survival in your same-sex marriage rants? Ah, but the church and whatever guilt you have, is so much more fun, or shall I say 'redeeming'.

Yawn. Please list away pym jr.



Vinyl Bitch.
 

B_Stronzo

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I never knew you were a religious man faceking. Thanks for the warm welcome back. It was actually a year and a half. It's appreciated (my reinstatement that is) more than I can tell you.

Damn. Wish I could find my "wherewithall". No sorry. I mean wherewithal. I know it's around here somewhere. :biggrin1:

It's refreshing to know we can all still address one another in a civil fashion. Nevertheless I'm still willing to accept blame where it's deserved and there's no race card being played that I can see. VinylBoy and I simply see things from a broader perspective than others I suspect.
 
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faceking

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I never knew you were a religious man faceking. Thanks for the warm welcome back. It was actually a year and a half. It's appreciated (my reinstatement that is) more than I can tell you.

Damn. Wish I could find my "wherewithall". No sorry. I mean wherewithal. I know it's around here somewhere. :biggrin1:

It's refreshing to know we can all still address one another in a civil fashion. Nevertheless I'm still willing to accept blame where it's deserved and there's no race card being played that I can see. VinylBoy and I simply see things from a broader perspective than others I suspect.


Yeah, I knew the 2 years was a bit too long... figured it was closer to a year, but I reserve the edit button for nonfactual claims, regrets and mass typos.. I vaguely heard what happened Stronzo (outside of LPSG), but from what I know ... I'm with ya kid, despite your lack of "wherewithall" ;-) It's internet rhetoric, not life and good peeps.

Religious. I'm on paper here as a non-practicing Roman Catholic, but appreciative of the community that is religions (i.e. Christians) bring to national community, AKA national fabric.

I can sum up the last year here for you... in bullet form:

GOOD

  • Pelosi
  • Green
  • Big City
  • Big Cock
  • Big Orgasms
  • 1/2 Million strong on LPSG
  • New features on LPSG (chat, groups, etc)
BAD

  • Bush
  • Christians
  • Corporations
  • Family
  • The Midwest
  • Fake/stolen LPSG profiles
  • Cut/pasting full news articles
  • 900,000 dead/pointless registrations on LPSG
  • Trolls on new LPSG features (chats, groups, etc)

UGLY

  • Me (despite my good looks, above-avg cock, and stratospheric orgasms)
PERFECT

  • Obama
PATHETIC

  • 95% of all Women's Issues started by men.
  • 95% of the above started with "My cock is too big for my girlfriend, and..."
  • Knocks on Palin
  • Blather about American Idol
  • Jason Dawgg (think you missed all that)
  • Stolen pics off the internet
  • Actually defending Biden or Joe the Plumber

CONTESTED

  • Economics
  • Military
  • Government policy

PERVERTED

  • Cheney fascination
  • JasonDawgg niavity
  • Willtom27's incessity pro Obama thread starting
  • (see PERFECT: Obama)

Stronzi... it's like... like, you never left. And you did blame white ppl for social niavity of young black men, more or less. A stronger race card than a Nascar player trading set, if I ever saw one. Guessing black-on-black crime is a sole white responsibility... another thread/time.
 
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B_Stronzo

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faceking said:
Stronzi... it's like... like, you never left. And you did blame white ppl for social niavity of young black men, more or less. A stronger race card than a Nascar player trading set, if I ever saw one. Guessing black-on-black crime is a sole white responsibility... another thread/time.



With all the civility I can possibly muster luv? I disagree. Nightie night.
 
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There's been more movement on the docket.
Does anyone know what's up?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]06/05/2009[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Rehearing petition filed[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1] 06/05/2009[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Request for judicial notice filed (Grant or AA case)[/SIZE][/FONT]
California Courts - Appellate Court Case Information