Pros and cons of being cut/uncut

robertomuro

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Originally posted by Mr._dB+Jun 23 2005, 06:30 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mr._dB &#064; Jun 23 2005, 06:30 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-robertomuro@Jun 23 2005, 09:27 AM


Oh yeah, on the sand under the foreskin comments. The 40 years in the desert was part of the period when the Jews did not circumcise at all so that was not a reason then either.
[post=323433]Quoted post[/post]​

Are you sure? &#39;Cause Moses definitely post-dates Abraham...
[post=323454]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]

True however there are periods in biblical history where the act/covenant was forgotten/not practised. The 40 years in the desert being during on of these times. Do a biblical search for the word and things will become a bit clearer.

Even now for example in countries like Russia, circumcision is essentialy non-existant and only a very small minority of jews there practise the ritual.

The Jewish circumcision itself developed over 3 seperate stages:

1st stage: Known as milah or convenant circumcision during the time of Abraham where a bit of foreskin beyond the tip of the glans was removed.

2nd stage: 140 AD - a step known as periah was added which was a rabbinate created rite where more/most of the foreskin/mucosa was removed by fingernail or other instrument.

3rd stage: 500-625 AD - Metzitzeh - During "Metzitzah", the mohel takes the now badly bleeding penis into his mouth and sucks the blood from the wounded part.

This 3rd stage has made news many times recently especially in the USA where a few infants have died from infections due to things like the Herpes virus being transmitted.

More info on the Jewish circumcision rite can be found here: http://www.cirp.org/library/history/peron2/
 

jonb

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Circumcision began in English-speaking countries in the 19th-century. In America, it began as a means of marking the elite in the 20s. In postwar America, with the rise of the "every (white) man a king" attitude, circumcision became more popular. They didn&#39;t even ask for parental consent; they just did it.
 

DC_DEEP

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Originally posted by hung9mike+Jun 19 2005, 11:57 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hung9mike &#064; Jun 19 2005, 11:57 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-DC_DEEP@May 17 2005, 10:47 AM
I am most definitely against mutilating an infant boy.
[post=312082]Quoted post[/post]​
Circumcision is mutilation? Isn&#39;t this overstating the outcome? Are cut guys totally incapable of having sex and procreating? :D

Honestly, I&#39;ve never understood why the cut/uncut argument is such a big deal one way or the other. I&#39;m uncut and as far as I can tell, the only advantages are:
  • Some partners have a preference for it. :D
  • Lube is essentially optional for jacking off. (In fact, it was a long time before I discovered that most guys did use some sort of lubrication for jacking off-- the idea never occurred to me&#33;)
The chief disadvantages are:
  • Some partners are put off by it. :D
  • The head is sensitive; having the foreskin retracted and the head rubbing against clothing is quite uncomfortable. (To me, at least&#33; So occasionally I have to "adjust myself.")
  • You have to keep your foreskin clean-- going without washing it is not only smelly (as some have described) but irritating (literally&#33;)
The advantages and disadvantages are small, at best, and nothing that cannot be overcome. Be happy with what you have.
[post=322166]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]
Yes, circumcision IS mutilation. The definition of mutilation does not preclude functionality. If someone had his nose surgically removed, would that be mutilation? Of course it would. Would the person still be able to breathe and detect odors and aromas? Most likely. Cutting off a normal healthy foresking does alter the function of the penis, but does not make it non-functional.
 

surferboy

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Originally posted by jonb@Jun 23 2005, 09:53 PM
Circumcision began in English-speaking countries in the 19th-century. In America, it began as a means of marking the elite in the 20s. In postwar America, with the rise of the "every (white) man a king" attitude, circumcision became more popular. They didn&#39;t even ask for parental consent; they just did it.
[post=323607]Quoted post[/post]​


It was sold to our country of a way to like, enshure yer boy won&#39;t jerk off. Then it evolved into "It&#39;s cleaner&#33;" which became "He won&#39;t catch STSs. Then, when AIDS came about, it became "cut dudes have a better chance of not getting AIDS." All of these reasons are total bullshit. But still. It&#39;s how it was sold to America.


You need to clean everyday but you really don&#39;t need to lube to jerk. It&#39;s soooooooooooooo much easier and it feels so much better.

That&#39;s another bullshit argument. I&#39;m cut, and I don&#39;t need lube at all. I hate that reason, because it&#39;s so untrue.


Anyway, bottomline is I think Uncut guy has a slight advantage over Cut guy because they can AT LEAST choose to be Cut later on.

I kinda agree with that. But, that being said, I think the only real advantages to it all is the preference of yer lovers. That&#39;s all.
 

jay_too

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I hate to revive this discussion. However, on the way to work this morning, I heard about this on the radio; and I looked it up....

I guess if you want more details you can email the authors.

jay

++++++++++++++++++++
Study Says Circumcision Reduces AIDS Risk by 70%

Findings From South Africa
May Offer Powerful Way
To Cut HIV Transmission
By MARK SCHOOFS, SARAH LUECK and MICHAEL M. PHILLIPS
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
July 5, 2005; Page A1

In a potentially major breakthrough in the campaign against AIDS, French and South African researchers have apparently found that male circumcision reduces by about 70% the risk that men will contract HIV through intercourse with infected women.

Other than abstinence and safer sex, almost nothing has been proved to reduce the sexual spread of HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. World-wide, the major route of HIV transmission for many years has been heterosexual sex.

Vaccine developers have said they would consider an AIDS vaccine with just 30% efficacy useful. But so far, no effective vaccine against the disease has been developed, leaving AIDS workers desperate for another tool to help them stem the tide of new infections, estimated at almost five million last year.

The circumcision findings were so dramatic that the data and safety monitoring board overseeing the research halted the study in February, about nine months before it would have been completed, on the grounds that it would be immoral to proceed without offering the uncircumcised control group the opportunity to undergo the procedure. While men were directly protected from infection by circumcision, women could benefit indirectly because circumcision would reduce the chances their partners would be HIV-positive.

Researchers in the field have been aware of the study&#39;s basic findings, but they haven&#39;t been published, so most experts haven&#39;t evaluated them. The British medical journal the Lancet decided against publishing the study, but for reasons unrelated to the data and scientific content, according to people familiar with the matter. Lancet officials, following standard policy at the journal, refused to comment on why the study was turned down.

The fact that an independent board ordered the study halted is considered a strong sign that the science is sound. Bertran Auvert, the French researcher who headed the trial, declined to discuss the findings but is expected to present them later this month at an International AIDS Society conference in Brazil.

Still, the fact that the research hasn&#39;t yet been published makes experts in the field wary about commenting. "Confirm, confirm, confirm," said Seth Berkley, a veteran HIV researcher and president of the International AIDS Vaccine Initiative. But if the study holds up, said Dr. Berkley, who wasn&#39;t involved with the research, it would be "quite important" because circumcision would be "an intervention that works over a person&#39;s lifetime and could reduce HIV in a community setting."

Assuming circumcision is as effective as the new study shows, it would still require careful implementation. In particular, health experts are concerned that men understand that circumcision can&#39;t fully protect them and that they maintain other preventive measures, such as safer sex.

"These preliminary results are quite interesting and we look forward to examining the data more closely, to looking at the technical aspects of the study and public-health implications if these results are confirmed by other trials," said Cate Hankins, chief scientific adviser to the United Nations AIDS agency, UNAIDS.

More than 30 previous studies have suggested a relationship between circumcision and lower rates of HIV infection. In Kenya, for example, HIV prevalence is much higher among the Luo people, who don&#39;t practice circumcision, than among the Kikuyu, who do.

And there are strong biological theories as to why. For example, a type of cell that HIV targets, called the Langerhans cell, lies close to the delicate underside of the foreskin, whereas the head of a circumcised penis tends to develop a thick layer of outer skin that may armor it against HIV. Another theory: Rather than acting against HIV itself, circumcision may help prevent other sexually transmitted diseases that are known to facilitate the acquisition of HIV.

Despite these theories, no study until now has been able to prove that circumcision reduces the chances of contracting HIV. Longtime advocates of the benefits of circumcision note that performing such a study has always faced resistance because of the sensitive cultural issues involved as well as the challenge of persuading a significant number of men to undergo the procedure.

The new research was designed to test the hypothesis by the most rigorous possible method: a randomized, controlled clinical trial.

It was conducted with more than 3,000 HIV-negative men ages 18 to 24 in a South African township called Orange Farm. Half of the men were randomly assigned to be circumcised and the other half to remain uncircumcised as controls. The study, headed by Dr. Auvert, a researcher at the French National Institute of Health and Medical Research and at the University of Versailles Saint-Quentin, originally planned to follow the men for 21 months. But after all the men had been followed for a year -- and about half of them for the full 21 months -- the data showed the circumcised group fared far better. For every 10 uncircumcised men in the study who contracted HIV, only about three circumcised men did so, according to two people familiar with the research and a draft of the study reviewed by The Wall Street Journal.

Stopping trials is common when an intervention is clearly shown to be effective. Indeed, the result of the South African trial is likely to spark discussion of whether to halt or modify two other major studies of circumcision and HIV under way in Kenya and Uganda, funded by the National Institutes of Health.

Ronald Gray, lead researcher on the Uganda trial, said, "It would be extremely unwise" to stop the Kenya and Uganda trials at this stage because "medicine has been burned in the past when policy is based on a single trial."

It isn&#39;t clear how the new study, if confirmed, would influence U.S. policy. Circumcision wouldn&#39;t affect IV drug users who get infected by sharing syringes, a group that accounts for a large proportion of American HIV cases. Also, the South Africa study didn&#39;t evaluate whether circumcision would offer any protection to gay men, who make up another large proportion of American cases. Any direct benefit to gay men would almost certainly be restricted to the insertive partner in anal intercourse, not the receptive partner.

In countries where male circumcision is uncommon and heterosexual HIV rates are high or rising rapidly, the procedure could be a powerful way of reducing the spread of the disease, the new study shows.

Even so, researchers warn of potential pitfalls in trying to put the findings into practice. First, circumcision doesn&#39;t make a person immune to infection. Indeed, if men abandon safer sex practices because they think the surgery completely protects them, then HIV transmission could rise.

"It will not take very much of an increase in risk behavior to overcome the benefit from circumcision," said Carolyn Williams, an American researcher involved in the Kenya circumcision study. AIDS experts insist that circumcision will have to be accompanied by intensive counseling.

Secondly, AIDS researchers worry that circumcisions performed in unsanitary conditions could lead to dangerous complications.

And while many Africans come from cultures that practice circumcision, many others don&#39;t. Would large numbers of men in noncircumcising cultures consent to go under the knife simply to reduce their risk of acquiring HIV?

"It&#39;s a surgical procedure on an organ that, you know, conjures up a lot of feelings in people," said Robert Bailey, the principal investigator in the Kenya study. "It&#39;s not just a shot in the arm."

Write to Mark Schoofs at mark.schoofs@wsj.com, Sarah Lueck at sarah.lueck@wsj.com and Michael M. Phillips at michael.phillips@wsj.com
 

jonb

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People have been saying this since 1984. They actually can&#39;t decide if the foreskin contains too many Langerhans cells or too few Langerhans cells. As opposed to the rest of the skin.

In English-speaking countries, which have a lot more similar sexual mores than just random African societies, circumcision correlates positively to increased risk of HIV infection.
 

robertomuro

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Originally posted by jay_too@Jul 5 2005, 06:24 PM
I hate to revive this discussion. However, on the way to work this morning, I heard about this on the radio; and I looked it up....

I guess if you want more details you can email the authors.

jay

++++++++++++++++++++
Study Says Circumcision Reduces AIDS Risk by 70%

Findings From South Africa
May Offer Powerful Way
To Cut HIV Transmission
By MARK SCHOOFS, SARAH LUECK and MICHAEL M. PHILLIPS
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
July 5, 2005; Page A1

In a potentially major breakthrough in the campaign against AIDS, French and South African researchers have apparently found that male circumcision reduces by about 70% the risk that men will contract HIV through intercourse with infected women.

Other than abstinence and safer sex, almost nothing has been proved to reduce the sexual spread of HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. World-wide, the major route of HIV transmission for many years has been heterosexual sex.

Vaccine developers have said they would consider an AIDS vaccine with just 30% efficacy useful. But so far, no effective vaccine against the disease has been developed, leaving AIDS workers desperate for another tool to help them stem the tide of new infections, estimated at almost five million last year.

The circumcision findings were so dramatic that the data and safety monitoring board overseeing the research halted the study in February, about nine months before it would have been completed, on the grounds that it would be immoral to proceed without offering the uncircumcised control group the opportunity to undergo the procedure. While men were directly protected from infection by circumcision, women could benefit indirectly because circumcision would reduce the chances their partners would be HIV-positive.

Researchers in the field have been aware of the study&#39;s basic findings, but they haven&#39;t been published, so most experts haven&#39;t evaluated them. The British medical journal the Lancet decided against publishing the study, but for reasons unrelated to the data and scientific content, according to people familiar with the matter. Lancet officials, following standard policy at the journal, refused to comment on why the study was turned down.

The fact that an independent board ordered the study halted is considered a strong sign that the science is sound. Bertran Auvert, the French researcher who headed the trial, declined to discuss the findings but is expected to present them later this month at an International AIDS Society conference in Brazil.

Still, the fact that the research hasn&#39;t yet been published makes experts in the field wary about commenting. "Confirm, confirm, confirm," said Seth Berkley, a veteran HIV researcher and president of the International AIDS Vaccine Initiative. But if the study holds up, said Dr. Berkley, who wasn&#39;t involved with the research, it would be "quite important" because circumcision would be "an intervention that works over a person&#39;s lifetime and could reduce HIV in a community setting."

Assuming circumcision is as effective as the new study shows, it would still require careful implementation. In particular, health experts are concerned that men understand that circumcision can&#39;t fully protect them and that they maintain other preventive measures, such as safer sex.

"These preliminary results are quite interesting and we look forward to examining the data more closely, to looking at the technical aspects of the study and public-health implications if these results are confirmed by other trials," said Cate Hankins, chief scientific adviser to the United Nations AIDS agency, UNAIDS.

More than 30 previous studies have suggested a relationship between circumcision and lower rates of HIV infection. In Kenya, for example, HIV prevalence is much higher among the Luo people, who don&#39;t practice circumcision, than among the Kikuyu, who do.

And there are strong biological theories as to why. For example, a type of cell that HIV targets, called the Langerhans cell, lies close to the delicate underside of the foreskin, whereas the head of a circumcised penis tends to develop a thick layer of outer skin that may armor it against HIV. Another theory: Rather than acting against HIV itself, circumcision may help prevent other sexually transmitted diseases that are known to facilitate the acquisition of HIV.

Despite these theories, no study until now has been able to prove that circumcision reduces the chances of contracting HIV. Longtime advocates of the benefits of circumcision note that performing such a study has always faced resistance because of the sensitive cultural issues involved as well as the challenge of persuading a significant number of men to undergo the procedure.

The new research was designed to test the hypothesis by the most rigorous possible method: a randomized, controlled clinical trial.

It was conducted with more than 3,000 HIV-negative men ages 18 to 24 in a South African township called Orange Farm. Half of the men were randomly assigned to be circumcised and the other half to remain uncircumcised as controls. The study, headed by Dr. Auvert, a researcher at the French National Institute of Health and Medical Research and at the University of Versailles Saint-Quentin, originally planned to follow the men for 21 months. But after all the men had been followed for a year -- and about half of them for the full 21 months -- the data showed the circumcised group fared far better. For every 10 uncircumcised men in the study who contracted HIV, only about three circumcised men did so, according to two people familiar with the research and a draft of the study reviewed by The Wall Street Journal.

Stopping trials is common when an intervention is clearly shown to be effective. Indeed, the result of the South African trial is likely to spark discussion of whether to halt or modify two other major studies of circumcision and HIV under way in Kenya and Uganda, funded by the National Institutes of Health.

Ronald Gray, lead researcher on the Uganda trial, said, "It would be extremely unwise" to stop the Kenya and Uganda trials at this stage because "medicine has been burned in the past when policy is based on a single trial."

It isn&#39;t clear how the new study, if confirmed, would influence U.S. policy. Circumcision wouldn&#39;t affect IV drug users who get infected by sharing syringes, a group that accounts for a large proportion of American HIV cases. Also, the South Africa study didn&#39;t evaluate whether circumcision would offer any protection to gay men, who make up another large proportion of American cases. Any direct benefit to gay men would almost certainly be restricted to the insertive partner in anal intercourse, not the receptive partner.

In countries where male circumcision is uncommon and heterosexual HIV rates are high or rising rapidly, the procedure could be a powerful way of reducing the spread of the disease, the new study shows.

Even so, researchers warn of potential pitfalls in trying to put the findings into practice. First, circumcision doesn&#39;t make a person immune to infection. Indeed, if men abandon safer sex practices because they think the surgery completely protects them, then HIV transmission could rise.

"It will not take very much of an increase in risk behavior to overcome the benefit from circumcision," said Carolyn Williams, an American researcher involved in the Kenya circumcision study. AIDS experts insist that circumcision will have to be accompanied by intensive counseling.

Secondly, AIDS researchers worry that circumcisions performed in unsanitary conditions could lead to dangerous complications.

And while many Africans come from cultures that practice circumcision, many others don&#39;t. Would large numbers of men in noncircumcising cultures consent to go under the knife simply to reduce their risk of acquiring HIV?

"It&#39;s a surgical procedure on an organ that, you know, conjures up a lot of feelings in people," said Robert Bailey, the principal investigator in the Kenya study. "It&#39;s not just a shot in the arm."

Write to Mark Schoofs at mark.schoofs@wsj.com, Sarah Lueck at sarah.lueck@wsj.com and Michael M. Phillips at michael.phillips@wsj.com
[post=326825]Quoted post[/post]​

They have been saying many things about circumcision and almost all is a load of bullsh**. If circumcision is so effective then why amongst the mostly uncircumcised white population is the AIDS rate in South Africa approx. 2% but amongst the mostly circumcised black population the AIDS rate is 50%>?

They fail to take into account so many factors that the study reeks of incompetency and government sponsored research (the South African government is pro-circumcision for traditional reasons). For example, before people in tribes such as the Zulu and Xhosa can become men, they must be circumcised. Once this is done, they are expected to have wives (1 to whatever) and not sleep around. The non-circumcised "boys" generally spend most of their free time having sex with anyone they can.

Besides, 70% is a crazy statistic. Condoms are 80% effective and no foreskin is 70%??? Even if this was true, what are they saying? You can have sex 4-5 times more now before becoming infected? Woopee..

This has been disproven many times anyway, if anyone is interested I will google for it..
 

DC_DEEP

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Well, I am just simply amazed. Um, using a bit of logic - an uncut penis will have more delicate tissue on the glans than a cut penis, making abrasions much more likely during any sexual activity, be it vaginal, anal, oral, or manual. Abrasions on the penis provide an entry point for the HIV. Draw your own conclusions from this earthbreaking information.

I still stand by my assertion that it makes much more sense to educate a boy in basic hygiene and disease prevention, than it does to arbitrarily cut off part of his penis.

The "religious covenant" only makes sense if all scriptural laws and covenants are strictly followed (and even then, I still don&#39;t understand why god would create the foreskin, then require us to cut it off. just makes no sense whatsoever.)
 

prepstudinsc

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Originally posted by DC_DEEP@Jul 6 2005, 02:54 PM
The "religious covenant" only makes sense if all scriptural laws and covenants are strictly followed (and even then, I still don&#39;t understand why god would create the foreskin, then require us to cut it off. just makes no sense whatsoever.)
[post=327110]Quoted post[/post]​

It&#39;s an act of obdience. If God requires His followers to do something like giving up part of their penis, it&#39;s a supreme sacrifice. It&#39;s not up to us to question God&#39;s reasoning--He asked the people of the covenant to be circumcised. If that&#39;s what Jewish people chose to do, that&#39;s fine by me. I&#39;m cut and I don&#39;t care that I am. I&#39;m actually GLAD that I am. It saved me a lot of pain going through it as an adult.
 

DC_DEEP

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Originally posted by prepstudinsc+Jul 6 2005, 04:52 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(prepstudinsc &#064; Jul 6 2005, 04:52 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-DC_DEEP@Jul 6 2005, 02:54 PM
The "religious covenant" only makes sense if all scriptural laws and covenants are strictly followed (and even then, I still don&#39;t understand why god would create the foreskin, then require us to cut it off.  just makes no sense whatsoever.)
[post=327110]Quoted post[/post]​

It&#39;s an act of obdience. If God requires His followers to do something like giving up part of their penis, it&#39;s a supreme sacrifice. It&#39;s not up to us to question God&#39;s reasoning--He asked the people of the covenant to be circumcised. If that&#39;s what Jewish people chose to do, that&#39;s fine by me. I&#39;m cut and I don&#39;t care that I am. I&#39;m actually GLAD that I am. It saved me a lot of pain going through it as an adult.
[post=327129]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]
THE ACT OF OBEDIENCE IS ONLY MEANINGFUL IF THERE IS STRICT ADHERANCE TO ALL THE LAWS/MADATES/COVENANTS GIVEN. Picking and choosing which ones to follow is obscene and blasphemous. And even at that, why is sacrifice to a god always so horrid, or even required at all? Most parents do not requre their children to cut off a finger to prove their love, and I do not need my friends to cut off an ear to prove their loyalty. It should just simply be obvious, especially to an all-knowing, all-seeing god.
 

KinkGuy

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To say nothing of the fact that NO ONE took into consideration whether or not
I WANTED part of my penis butchered. But the Dr. made a few extra bucks but mutilating yet another infant.
 

jonb

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Originally posted by DC_DEEP@Jul 6 2005, 10:54 AM
Well, I am just simply amazed. Um, using a bit of logic - an uncut penis will have more delicate tissue on the glans than a cut penis, making abrasions much more likely during any sexual activity, be it vaginal, anal, oral, or manual. Abrasions on the penis provide an entry point for the HIV. Draw your own conclusions from this earthbreaking information.

I still stand by my assertion that it makes much more sense to educate a boy in basic hygiene and disease prevention, than it does to arbitrarily cut off part of his penis.

The "religious covenant" only makes sense if all scriptural laws and covenants are strictly followed (and even then, I still don&#39;t understand why god would create the foreskin, then require us to cut it off. just makes no sense whatsoever.)
[post=327110]Quoted post[/post]​
Actually, dry tissue cuts more quickly than moist tissue.

As far as the religious covenant, remember, this is the same god who considers pigs and shrimp an abomination.
 

prepstudinsc

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Part of the Kosher laws (kashrut) pertaining to eating things such as pork, shellfish, birds of prey etc. are because those kinds of animals are scavengers. The animals that Jews can eat are allowed by God because not only for health reasons, but because of the characteristics of the animals. The animals allowed are docile, domesticated creatures, rather than scavengers or carnivores. Those are not characteristics that they would want to absorb by eating. So there is both a spiritual and a health factor involved. God knew what He was doing by setting out these rules in the Bible. Why do you all think that you need to question it?

"At a night encampment on the way, the lord encountered him and sought to kill him. So Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son&#39;s foreskin, and touched his legs with it, saying, ‘You&#39;re truly a bridegroom to me&#33;&#39; And when He let him alone, she added ‘A bridegroom of blood because of the circumcision" (Exodus 4:24-26).

Moses is symbolically circumcised here. Through the circumcision of his son he is touched in the place where his own fertility comes from, as the feet and legs are often euphemisms for genitals. Through the uncovering of the son the father has become uncovered too. The act of circumcision suggests a change of state. The ritual severing - the cut or milah that unites (b-rith) - is symbolic of a cut through the known to reveal the unknown. The knife inscribes a circle which is a symbol of unity. The B&#39;rith Milah, or covenant with God, suggests that a cut into the flesh is a sign of human/divine wholeness. The act of circumcision is the removal of the orlah or foreskin. When used in scripture the word orlah refers to a barrier in the way of a beneficial result. Adam, the first man, was born circumcised which signified his closeness to God. Because Adam&#39;s sin was the failure of mankind the foreskin, symbolizing his new separation from God, became a permanent part of the human body. "Like a sheath holding a sword, the body is a vessel containing the soul. Just as the contours of a sheath tell much about the contours of the sword within, so the body can reveal much about the condition of the soul. (Bris Milah) When Adam retained his intimacy with God the human body mirrored this condition. When the body had no spiritual barrier it had no orlah, but when Adam&#39;s sin caused a barrier between him and God the human body mirrored this state also. The foreskin represents Moses&#39; separation from God as Adam&#39;s fig leaf did after he ate of the Tree of Knowledge. The fig leaf serves as Adam&#39;s foreskin that he later passes on to his descendants. During the time of Abraham the human race still had the spiritual and physical foreskin, but then Abraham demonstrated that man could surmount this sin. God recognized this change in the human race&#39;s spiritual essence through Abraham and so gave him the commandment of circumcision. In general, the word orlah has the connotation of something that is uncontrolled. The removal of the orlah then symbolizes the idea of control. Through the act of milah one indicates that they can control the pattern of their life. Circumcision is the removal of a defilement or barrier that could restrict spiritual development.

Circumcision can be seen as a form of ritual bloodletting. A metal knife, called an izmail is used to perform the circumcision. The traditional izmail is sharp on both sides. This helps to eliminate possibility of harming the child by using a blunt edge. Metzitzah, or drawing, is the act of extracting blood from the wound. The Talmud considers this act to be therapeutic which is reminiscent of other feeling about bloodletting acts such as venesection. There is some controversy over whether this should be done orally or if it can also be done in other ways. The Talmud is strongly opposed to omitting this part of the ceremony and says that any mohel who does not perform it should be removed from office. An act which causes bleeding is a violation of the Sabbath. However, since the Torah specifies exactly when the ceremony is to be performed, eight days after birth, the act of milah wins out over this prohibition. This is a case where one ceremony cancel out a blood taboo. According to Jewish law, a boy that is born circumcised has to have a drop of blood drawn ritually instead of a circumcision the same also applies to any converts to Judaism who might already be circumcised. This shows that the blood is as integral a part of the ceremony as the removal of the foreskin. Blood is an integral part of many offerings and sacrifices and the act of circumcision is both an offering and a sacrifice to the covenant with God. The rabbinic notion of salvation is symbolized by the blood of circumcision. The foreskin is the offering with which the people of Israel seal the covenant with Yahweh.
 

DC_DEEP

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Originally posted by jonb+Jul 6 2005, 09:07 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jonb &#064; Jul 6 2005, 09:07 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-DC_DEEP@Jul 6 2005, 10:54 AM

I still stand by my assertion that it makes much more sense to educate a boy in basic hygiene and disease prevention, than it does to arbitrarily cut off part of his penis.
[post=327110]Quoted post[/post]​
Actually, dry tissue cuts more quickly than moist tissue.

As far as the religious covenant, remember, this is the same god who considers pigs and shrimp an abomination.
[post=327188]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]
Dry tissue cuts more quickly than moist tissues? Are you sure about that? And an abrasion (scrape) is not the same as a cut (laceration). Finally, a glans without a foreskin generally tends to develop a callus-like layer in response to contact with clothing - this DOES reduce abrasion.
 

DC_DEEP

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Originally posted by prepstudinsc@Jul 7 2005, 09:25 AM
Part of the Kosher laws (kashrut) pertaining to eating things such as pork, shellfish, birds of prey etc. are because those kinds of animals are scavengers. The animals that Jews can eat are allowed by God because not only for health reasons, but because of the characteristics of the animals. The animals allowed are docile, domesticated creatures, rather than scavengers or carnivores. Those are not characteristics that they would want to absorb by eating. So there is both a spiritual and a health factor involved. God knew what He was doing by setting out these rules in the Bible. Why do you all think that you need to question it?

"At a night encampment on the way, the lord encountered him and sought to kill him. So Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son&#39;s foreskin, and touched his legs with it, saying, ‘You&#39;re truly a bridegroom to me&#33;&#39; And when He let him alone, she added ‘A bridegroom of blood because of the circumcision" (Exodus 4:24-26).

Moses is symbolically circumcised here. Through the circumcision of his son he is touched in the place where his own fertility comes from, as the feet and legs are often euphemisms for genitals. Through the uncovering of the son the father has become uncovered too. The act of circumcision suggests a change of state. The ritual severing - the cut or milah that unites (b-rith) - is symbolic of a cut through the known to reveal the unknown. The knife inscribes a circle which is a symbol of unity. The B&#39;rith Milah, or covenant with God, suggests that a cut into the flesh is a sign of human/divine wholeness. The act of circumcision is the removal of the orlah or foreskin. When used in scripture the word orlah refers to a barrier in the way of a beneficial result. Adam, the first man, was born circumcised which signified his closeness to God. Because Adam&#39;s sin was the failure of mankind the foreskin, symbolizing his new separation from God, became a permanent part of the human body. "Like a sheath holding a sword, the body is a vessel containing the soul. Just as the contours of a sheath tell much about the contours of the sword within, so the body can reveal much about the condition of the soul. (Bris Milah) When Adam retained his intimacy with God the human body mirrored this condition. When the body had no spiritual barrier it had no orlah, but when Adam&#39;s sin caused a barrier between him and God the human body mirrored this state also. The foreskin represents Moses&#39; separation from God as Adam&#39;s fig leaf did after he ate of the Tree of Knowledge. The fig leaf serves as Adam&#39;s foreskin that he later passes on to his descendants. During the time of Abraham the human race still had the spiritual and physical foreskin, but then Abraham demonstrated that man could surmount this sin. God recognized this change in the human race&#39;s spiritual essence through Abraham and so gave him the commandment of circumcision. In general, the word orlah has the connotation of something that is uncontrolled. The removal of the orlah then symbolizes the idea of control. Through the act of milah one indicates that they can control the pattern of their life. Circumcision is the removal of a defilement or barrier that could restrict spiritual development.

Circumcision can be seen as a form of ritual bloodletting. A metal knife, called an izmail is used to perform the circumcision. The traditional izmail is sharp on both sides. This helps to eliminate possibility of harming the child by using a blunt edge. Metzitzah, or drawing, is the act of extracting blood from the wound. The Talmud considers this act to be therapeutic which is reminiscent of other feeling about bloodletting acts such as venesection. There is some controversy over whether this should be done orally or if it can also be done in other ways. The Talmud is strongly opposed to omitting this part of the ceremony and says that any mohel who does not perform it should be removed from office. An act which causes bleeding is a violation of the Sabbath. However, since the Torah specifies exactly when the ceremony is to be performed, eight days after birth, the act of milah wins out over this prohibition. This is a case where one ceremony cancel out a blood taboo. According to Jewish law, a boy that is born circumcised has to have a drop of blood drawn ritually instead of a circumcision the same also applies to any converts to Judaism who might already be circumcised. This shows that the blood is as integral a part of the ceremony as the removal of the foreskin. Blood is an integral part of many offerings and sacrifices and the act of circumcision is both an offering and a sacrifice to the covenant with God. The rabbinic notion of salvation is symbolized by the blood of circumcision. The foreskin is the offering with which the people of Israel seal the covenant with Yahweh.
[post=327307]Quoted post[/post]​
See Galatians 5:2 - 6.
 

jonb

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Originally posted by DC_DEEP@Jul 7 2005, 06:03 AM
Dry tissue cuts more quickly than moist tissues? Are you sure about that? And an abrasion (scrape) is not the same as a cut (laceration). Finally, a glans without a foreskin generally tends to develop a callus-like layer in response to contact with clothing - this DOES reduce abrasion.
[post=327314]Quoted post[/post]​
I meant abrades more easily. You&#39;re more likely to get abrasions on your penis than lacerations. The callus is also more likely to abrade just because of the mechanics of erection. It&#39;s not like a callus you get on your finger.

From a population-based study, of English-speaking countries, the U.S. has the highest rates of both circumcision and HIV infection. Of course, for an individual, particular sexual choices matter more for whether or not you get AIDS.
 

prepstudinsc

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Originally posted by DC_DEEP@Jul 7 2005, 10:12 AM
See Galatians 5:2 - 6.
[post=327319]Quoted post[/post]​

That only applies to Christians if they were being circumcised for religious reasons. My quote was about Kosher dietary laws.