prosperity OR individuel liberty

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Perados, Nov 13, 2011.

  1. Perados

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2007
    Messages:
    7,537
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    659
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    germany
    what is more importent for you...
    If you have to choose

    To live in a world wher you have every freedoms but have to spend 100% of your income for food and housing

    Or in a world wher you just spend 5% but cant live like you want...


    Or in an other way asked what would you immolate for more prosperity?
     
    #1 Perados, Nov 13, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2011
  2. D_Bob_Crotchitch

    D_Bob_Crotchitch New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2006
    Messages:
    8,498
    Likes Received:
    18
    Liberty is more important. Many of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence lost all they had. There homes were burned. Their children were sometimes killed. They put it all on the for freedom. The Constitution was amended to guarantee the rights, and freedoms of individuals. Laws were put into place to protect us from the government infringing upon our liberties, and taking freedom from us.
    My ancestors were part of the wars, and used a large part of their fortunes to buy supplies for the Continental Army. When Congress repaid one with land in Tennessee, he named his home Liberty stating it was worth it all.
     
  3. MrMeatFlaps

    MrMeatFlaps New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2010
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
  4. wallyj84

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2008
    Messages:
    2,744
    Likes Received:
    682
    What kinds of freedoms will I be giving up? There are many different types of freedoms and I would be willing to give up some more than others.
     
  5. TurkeyWithaSunburn

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Messages:
    3,543
    Albums:
    5
    Likes Received:
    252
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Denver, Colorado
    I know that English is your 2nd language (at least) but when I read this I had visions of setting people on fire. :redface:

    immolate

    emulate

    :redface::biggrin1:​
     
  6. Perados

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2007
    Messages:
    7,537
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    659
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    germany
    na not this way :biggrin1: what kind of word would you use thats familier but not that "strong"?

    What would you give up to keep the finanziel lever you are atm? Like, cant love the same gender or cant say what you want or cant vote... At what point would you personaly say its enough?
    Would it be okay that the gov knows everything of you?
     
    #6 Perados, Nov 14, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2011
  7. dandelion

    Verified Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2009
    Messages:
    7,875
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    598
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    Verified:
    Photo
    Its hard to say without specific questions.

    for immolate I would suggest simply 'give up'.

    The question of how much the government knows is a topical one. Right now it is limited by technology which does not allow government just to keep one file on everyone. In the Uk the last government attempted to introduce nationally available medical files on everyone. This has been largely abandoned because they couldnt do it, but some sort of nationally available medical records will now exist. So MI5 can look up how often you get a sex related infection (or presumably the newspapers). The government will seek to add this to its passport identification files, its tax and benefit information including who you work for, your police records, your educational records, what car you own, all the places you have ever lived, when you leave the country and return, your parents and relatives names and addresses, who you marry or live with, if you own or inherit property, Im sure there must be more information it already has but doesnt organise very well.

    Does this matter? I think we need to decide what we believe about the grey areas where at the moment people rely on information not being easy to access. If no one attacks you for your lifestyle then it probably doesnt matter if they all know what you do. However there are lots of grey areas, such as gay relationships, where people break laws fairly confident that they will not be found out. If everyone who breaks the laws governing sexual behaviour got punished then in the past jails would have been bursting with gay men and right now they would be bursting with teenagers who have had illegal underage sex. Would anyone in the right minds want that? No, it would be necessary to rewrite laws so they do not rely on ignoring things which happen anyway. Your significant other would be able to tell the number of times your car gets parked in a certain street every time you are supposedly at work.

    The plus side of this would have to be an acceptance by society that these thing do happen and must be allowed to continue. Openness and honesty about what people really do cuts through hypocrisy. An end to MPs being able to hide their secret gay lovers or past gay affairs would likely have brought in gay friendly legislation much quicker. So how will we feel when the collected information shows 30% of the population are cheating on their tax returns? 75% of the population are breaking some law?

    if you have to spend 100% of your income on food then mostly your legal freedoms dont matter. You have no freedom to use any of those legal freedoms. A minimum amount of cash is itself an essential freedom and ought to be included in any legislation listing rights as the top one.
     
  8. midlifebear

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,908
    Likes Received:
    11
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Nevada, Buenos Aires, and Barçelona
    I'd give up the freedom to eat ice cream.
     
  9. Bbucko

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2006
    Messages:
    7,413
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    58
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Sunny SoFla
    I really don't see it as either/or.

    That having been said, I've rarely if ever truly prospered in the financial sense because I was never money-motivated. Instead I was (and still am) oriented toward less materialistic goals. And if one knows nothing else about me, it's that I'm all about flaunting my individual freedom.

    So if the question becomes which would you choose, then the obvious response would be individual freedom, though I still reject the dichotomy out of hand.
     
  10. Redwyvre

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2011
    Messages:
    560
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    416
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    midwest
    Would you say the word immolate=sacrifice?
    The concept of making sacrifices is so Old Testament. Why would I willingly destroy something valuable to gain something in the future? It never made any sense to me. On the other hand giving up something means getting rid of something. Very different concept. Giving up something should make me more healthy.
    It is true the government wants us to document our lives for them more and more and this needs to monitored. There are always trade-offs.
     
  11. Perados

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2007
    Messages:
    7,537
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    659
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    germany
    to give up freedom never makes you healthy thats why i used immolate... In german opfern=immolate fits better then aufgeben = give up ... This would go more in direktion of i want one thing more then the other so i give it up
    And i ask cause you dont need full freedom to get ritch but you need a minimum of prosperity for freedom... And atm the western goverments are cutting our freedom. At what point its enough?
     
    #11 Perados, Nov 15, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2011
  12. Jason

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2004
    Messages:
    9,921
    Likes Received:
    639
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London (GB)
    This is the argument now being faced in the EU.

    Do you want to be prosperous, but at the price of giving up your democracy? Or do you want to be free? Greeks and Italians have taken what they are told is prosperity and accepted the imposition of a PM - in Italy an unelected individual with a largely unelected cabinet governing for an indeterminate period.

    It is also an argument that is being made around UK membership of the EU. We are told we would be poorer outside the EU, and must therefore accept a loss of our freedoms. My view is that we should chose freedom. I don't know what the cost would be (if indeed any) but this factor does not influence my decision.
     
  13. Perados

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2007
    Messages:
    7,537
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    659
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    germany
    Lol you cant even vote for all members of your goverment (house of lords)... :biggrin1:

    And at the end we will have more democracy in the ez then it is now in the eu...
     
  14. Klingsor

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Messages:
    3,968
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    852
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Champaign (IL, US)
    Only because you know you'd be first in line at the ice cream speakeasies! :biggrin1:
     
  15. dandelion

    Verified Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2009
    Messages:
    7,875
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    598
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    Verified:
    Photo
    If I was voting for freedom, then I would vote to join the eu. Come on, through my entire life no one has been elected by anything I am allowed to do who represents my views in the government of this country. So whats all this about giving up democracy? Theres nothing to give up. The only hope I have for democracy comes from the EU.
     
  16. Jason

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2004
    Messages:
    9,921
    Likes Received:
    639
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London (GB)
    I've seen a lot of your views on this board, and they aren't all that weird and whacky. You can vote for councillors and MPs. In England the three main parties stand just about everywhere, so you have the chance to cast your vote. If you are saying none represent your views, well do something about it. Standing as an independent in a local election is not all that hard to do. If the Dandelion manifesto strikes a cord you will be elected - and hundreds of independents are elected.

    You may have workplace democracy through a Trades Union or similar. You can play a part on residents' committees (if you live in a flat). You can elect members for your local Co-op. If you are a member of a Protestant church you can have an imput into who holds positions.

    If you want to say UK democracy is flawed, well of course it is, they all are. but the UK is still one of the world's most democratic nations. If you don't feel represented get out there and get represented.

    how an EU that in the last few days ha appoint two PMs over the will of their people and cancelled an inconvenient referendum can be more democratic utterly defeats me. The EU is a nascent authoritarian state.
     
  17. Redwyvre

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2011
    Messages:
    560
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    416
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    midwest
    From my perception the population of Greece and Italy have given a vote of no confidence to their elected officials and are okay with turning things over to... I'm not sure who....a group of investors probably. It is a interesting development. I'm wondering is it unprecedented. I have a friend whose grandparents were forced to leave the Netherlands because they lost everything after investing in bonds issued by Czarist Russia. Whose prosperity are you referring to Italian, Greece, German?

    Jason you are correct it is very possible experience democracy locally. Where I live it is quite easy to become a member of the board of a non-profit organization. Of course, it is generally thankless volunteer activity, but the exchange of ideas and being in a leadership position can be rewarding and insightful.
     
    #17 Redwyvre, Nov 15, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2011
  18. D_Bob_Crotchitch

    D_Bob_Crotchitch New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2006
    Messages:
    8,498
    Likes Received:
    18
    I lived many years in an abusive household. I had no freedom, nothing I earned was mine, I was beaten, and regularly abused. I moved out to not enough food, and lived in a dump. The carpet would fall apart when you vacuumed it. Still, I had peace, and freedom. Give me freedom any day over plenty with oppression.
     
  19. Perados

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2007
    Messages:
    7,537
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    659
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    germany
    The greek people never voted... And if they could they wouldnt know for what. 70% say they dont want more savings and 80% say they wanna keep the euro. Only one thing is possible... So what?

    When i write individual freedom so i also mean individual prosperity...

    So his grandfather made a bad investment... And??? Only thing i can say is stupid to buy bonds at an upcoming war...
     
    #19 Perados, Nov 15, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2011
  20. Redwyvre

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2011
    Messages:
    560
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    416
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    midwest
    When I was flat on my back financially I didn't have many options. I had to ask for help. I recieved help, but I had to make some significant changes to prevent returning to complete helplessness. I feel as if I'm more free now than when I thought I was free and actually going down the drain.
    I'm not comfortable comparing myself to another country, I'm also not in a postion to be of much help for the troubled countries in the EU.
    It was complicated. Bottom line his grandfather had to sell his property in the Netherlands and he settled in Iowa. The bonds were suppose to pay a very high rate of interest... They were junk bonds... funny how some things never really change.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted