Psycho/Sociopaths

helgaleena

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I actually find this more disturbing than anything else. I understand the impulse, but think hard about what you're saying and the relationship between you and the people you 'collect...' Are they not individuals as well, with separate lives and separate emotions (there's that empathy vs. sympathy thing again) and separate agendas? Aren't they more than simply buffers to protect you from bad people? When you start treating people as objects for your own gain, however good or positive you perceive that gain is... Then you really need to evaluate the way you process your relationships.


I never used the term 'collect'; I was merely trying to address the OP's complaint that such a large number of the people in his environment seemed to be 'psycho-socipathic' according to his little list. Being more forgivng and empathetic oneself is a sure way to help foster similar treatment by others. I stand by that assertion, no matter what brings those people or causes them to drift away again. That includes empathy and compassion toward those we are trying to identify with this label.
 

MarkLondon

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Licensed mental health practitioner here. I normally don't post, but since there's an enormous amount of mis- and disinformation on here, I thought I'd say a couple of things.

<snip> So saying that 50% of corporate America or whatever scored as sociopaths on some instrument is a ludicrously silly thing to do. What's their social impairment? How are they not functioning? <snip>
1. They don't care for other people, just profits.

2. Ahem, they just fucked the entire western world and brought down their own
raison d'etre, in case you hadn't noticed.
More to the point, the reason these people score so high is because the nature of their work rewards that kind of behavior.
Yes, indeed.
I would be more worried about, say, 50% of clergy or Buddhist monks scoring high on a psychopathy "instrument,"
Except they don't.
but it doesn't surprise me that giving out a psychopathy screening instrument to corporate tycoons and politicians are going to give huge results. After all, they're being rewarded for doing what we ask them to be; the list of 'criteria' for psychopathy are the things most people would look for in a politician/successful CEO. How did they get to where they are able to take time to take a psychopathology screening instrument? Not by telling the truth and having empathy.
No, we didn't ask them to do that. We asked them to be responsible and thoughtful exemplars. People with vision for a sustainable future. Which they ain't.
Finally, there people in this world who are not mentally disturbed who are simply mean, evil people. There's nothing "wrong" with them in the clinical sense. They're just mean people. They're not psycho/sociopaths or anything else.

<snip>

Yes, that's probably true. More fool us.
 
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Nemo_Steampunk

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I never used the term 'collect'; I was merely trying to address the OP's complaint that such a large number of the people in his environment seemed to be 'psycho-socipathic' according to his little list. Being more forgivng and empathetic oneself is a sure way to help foster similar treatment by others. I stand by that assertion, no matter what brings those people or causes them to drift away again. That includes empathy and compassion toward those we are trying to identify with this label.

I was being very imprecise in my language and wasn't saying what I meant to say very well; apologies.

Obviously, modeling good relationships and seeking out people who likewise model good relationships with each other isn't a bad thing and is to be encouraged. What I was (very poorly) trying to warn against is adopting an attitude that people are an accessory; a supporting cast to 'the star.' I don't think that's what you were getting at.
 

Nemo_Steampunk

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1. They don't care for other people, just profits.

I checked Global Assessment of Functioning criteria in the DSM-IV-TR, just to make sure that not "car[ing] for other people, just profits" wasn't in there. That I had somehow missed it.

I hadn't.

When I ask if they're funcitoning, I'm wondering if they're paying their own bills on time. If their relationships with co-workers, family, friends etc. are stable. I'm wondering if they're dependent on alcohol or drugs. I'm not clinically worrying about their lack of "care for other people, just profits."


No, we didn't ask them to do that. We asked them to be responsible and thoughtful exemplars. People with vision for a sustainable future. Which they ain't.

I think if you look for political leaders or business tycoons to be exemplars, you will constantly be disappointed. These are all moral judgements, not clinical ones. Calling these people 'sociopaths' doesn't do anything but hit the kill switch on discussion about real causes of their failures and makes real mental illness that much more perjorative and difficult to treat.

Look at it this way... If they really are "sociopaths" (however defined), then by definition, they're ill and we shouldn't be making moral judgements about them and should direct collective anger elsewhere. If they aren't sociopaths then issue moral judgements left right and center.
 

Fuzzy_

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This is wrong; people with personality disorders tend to fake sympathy very well. It's the ability to feel empathy, actually being able to reflect on another human being's emotions and apply those emotions to themselves that is the big problem. A fine point, but it's a significant one.

One cannot 'feel' empathy; It is a skill that those with antisocial personality disorder (psychopathy) lack. In fact, it's one of the psychopathy diagnostic criterion in the DSM-III.

Fuzzy doesn't think that even a hardened psychopath can successfully mimic the behavior of 'sympathy' among their friends and family. Robert D. Hare has done interesting research with brain scans that has shown identifiable neurological traits of psychopathy.
 

helgaleena

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One cannot 'feel' empathy; It is a skill that those with antisocial personality disorder (psychopathy) lack. In fact, it's one of the psychopathy diagnostic criterion in the DSM-III.

Fuzzy doesn't think that even a hardened psychopath can successfully mimic the behavior of 'sympathy' among their friends and family. Robert D. Hare has done interesting research with brain scans that has shown identifiable neurological traits of psychopathy.


Oh Fuzzy, You'd be surprised how easy it is for a skilled actor to fool people. And some professional actors are also psychos, I am certain!

Are you saying 'sympathy' is the feeling, and 'empathy' is the skill???
 

Fuzzy_

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Oh Fuzzy, You'd be surprised how easy it is for a skilled actor to fool people. And some professional actors are also psychos, I am certain!

Are you saying 'sympathy' is the feeling, and 'empathy' is the skill???

Fuzzy believes that many psychopaths can be very good at mimicking sympathy, but that (as Nemo stated), they can't grasp empathy. Fuzzy thinks that sympathy is a feeling that requires the skill of empathy.

Fuzzy believes that sympathy includes empathizing and having concern for others. This "empathic concern" might help social groups due to a desire to help others in that group. While some psychopaths can detect what other group members are feeling, they do not experience any reciprocal emotion or sympathy.
 

Fuzzy_

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Update:

I'm afraid that I may be losing objectivity here, as I'm seeing psychopaths all around me now but statisticially speaking I should not have encountered this many psychopaths as only 1 to 4% of the population can be placed into this category but it feels more like 20% to me.

Same with Fuzzy. Maybe Fuzzy is just more mindful of them lately. Fuzzy was really screwed over by a few people this past year and they seemed to have no sense of empathy, guilt or remorse. They saw Fuzzy as a commodity to exploit for social and economic reasons (in one case just for pleasure).
 

blazblue

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Update:



Same with Fuzzy. Maybe Fuzzy is just more mindful of them lately. Fuzzy was really screwed over by a few people this past year and they seemed to have no sense of empathy, guilt or remorse. They saw Fuzzy as a commodity to exploit for social and economic reasons (in one case just for pleasure).

Hmmm... That sounds more like selfishness than psychotic behavior to me. When we talk about psychopaths, are talking about people who are mentally ill and/or crazy or people who are only looking out for themselves?
 

THEDUDEofDestiny

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So I stumbled upon this after trying to figure out the answers to a lot of unanswered questions in my last relationship.

Most people grab the bottle or do drugs or rebound sex, I need for things to make sense to put my issues behind me.

But seeing this list, made me think of a lot of unusual behaviour people displayed in my personal surroundings.

Aggressive narcissism
Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Emotionally shallow
Callous/lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

I'm afraid that I may be losing objectivity here, as I'm seeing psychopaths all around me now but statisticially speaking I should not have encountered this many psychopaths as only 1 to 4% of the population can be placed into this category but it feels more like 20% to me.

A different theory for encountering so many psychopaths in my life is that I'm subconsciously drawn to them or vice versa.


How has your experience been with psychopaths?

as with most things there is a spectrum. most people display these characteristics throughout the day and it is normal, sometimes even appropriate, behavior. what makes a true clinical sociopath isn't having these behaviors, it's the inability to experience the full range of an emotions. the reason sociopaths are often shallow and glib is because they are only pretending to be interested in anything other than themselves.
 

THEDUDEofDestiny

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Interesting, I have found exactly the same thing in my own experiences. Though I'm a genuine and honest person, it seems that I attract (mostly) superficial and self-obsessed people.


they crave positive feedback and so it is exactly this type of person that they are drawn to. again, true sociopaths are rare, so most of the people you are talking about are just garden variety assholes.


as to current economic jibberish, according to some recent studies, there are more sociopaths in the upper levels of management that at anytime in our history. i'm assuming this is because no one did behavioral studies during the gilded age, but that caveat aside, they think it has to do with the current economy where people move from job to job. sociopaths are good at making favorable first impressions but have a hard time maintaining the charade. when they get a new job every two years this is remedied and they can fail up. it should be noted that true sociopaths still only account for an estimated 4% of management so again, an asshole does not a sociopath make.
 

THEDUDEofDestiny

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:yup: Sociopathy, or something analogous to it, is an attribute not just of individuals but of corporations, according to Joel Bakan's The Corporation, some of the contents of which are presented in this video:

THE CORPORATION [6/23] The Pathology of Commerce - YouTube

As for recognizing the sociopaths among us, I recommend The Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout.


i am a little cautious about calling corporations sociopaths because it muddles things (unless romney is right and corporations are people". nations wage war, but we don't call nations sociopaths because we have different standards for human interacts and affairs of states. corporations do a lot of bad things, as do nations, but we should keep in mind exactly what we are accessing. a corporation, or government, will act (marginally) better if given the right carrots and sticks, whereas a sociopath has no hope.
 

THEDUDEofDestiny

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The horrible part about it is that I recognise a lot of my female friends in this description.

And I have found it to be pretty common behaviour in women my age.

I hope I just have a very flawed perception of people in general because statistics tell me that I'm dead wrong.

i've been reading your posts and you might be letting a bad relationship color your thoughts on this.
 

redneckgymrat

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But seeing this list, made me think of a lot of unusual behaviour people displayed in my personal surroundings.

Aggressive narcissism
Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Emotionally shallow
Callous/lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

This is merely a list of "symptoms," and while they are common among psychopaths, they are not absolute.

Psychopathy is a medical condition, specifically relating to a "disconnect" between lower and higher brain functions, which results in an inability to experience empathy, and a lot of other normal emotions. This *results* in a lot of those symptoms.

As an example...I'm sure we've all "lied" by pretending to be interested in whatever subject someone else was droning on about. Why, we're obviously all horrible liars who feel no remorse about such a heinous act...we're psychopaths!

No. Pretending does not a psychopath make. Nor does sensitivity, consideration, or any other number of social considerations.

I'm afraid that I may be losing objectivity here, as I'm seeing psychopaths all around me now but statisticially speaking I should not have encountered this many psychopaths as only 1 to 4% of the population can be placed into this category but it feels more like 20% to me.

Actually, some studies place psychopathy at nearly 1 in 4, or 25%. But, much like autism, it exists on a spectrum...

And, psychopathy does NOT automatically make someone a bad person. It seems to me that you're just meeting a bunch of shallow jerks.
 

zacr9

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Learn for my story: I have just shared accommodation with what I believe was a psycopath/sociopath...knew this person before but after I moved in was forced to sign a contract which was not even fair...but had already moved in and thought things would be ok...he went around the unit repeating saying/words to himself over and over, often vile words, he would not let me watch T.V in peace but kept interrupting and asking stupid questions over and over, a roster of chores suddenly appeared which had many minsicule tasks I had to do for him and he monitired it, he made weird comments about things, called me teasing names which were not flattering, it got to the point where I had to ask him not to speak to me or use these words but he kept doing it more once he realsied it annoyed me, he talked about me on the phone so that I could hear etc....to leave was a nightmare....he was showing people through my room without permission & called me a boarder which I clearly was not....ended up I did not speak for 6 weeks before I left and I had to get the Police to move out...he took numerous pics of me moving out and threatened to take damages out of my bond, stood at the door and watched everything/glaring, even initmidated the removalists - control freak...and to make it worse after me leaving a week early and all was very tidy he did not return the bond which he promised he would do....I also think looking back it was possible I may have been poisoned as well, my health suffered so badly and I was very sick out of the blue one night - almost collapsed. My comment to others is get out asap, u cant change these type of people, they will wear u down, they never say sorry, and they seem to enjoy the fact that they r hurting you or making life miserable for you, or dont care - its like a game & they are very intelligent to manipulate you etc....even turn mutual friends aginst u with lies....took me weeks to recover form this & I had to try to find other accommodation which was very difficult. Realise it aint u when u live with a true control freak or sociopath....and watch out for these type of people!!!!!:confused:
 

sizehungry

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So I stumbled upon this after trying to figure out the answers to a lot of unanswered questions in my last relationship.

Most people grab the bottle or do drugs or rebound sex, I need for things to make sense to put my issues behind me.

But seeing this list, made me think of a lot of unusual behaviour people displayed in my personal surroundings.

Aggressive narcissism
Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Emotionally shallow
Callous/lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

I'm afraid that I may be losing objectivity here, as I'm seeing psychopaths all around me now but statisticially speaking I should not have encountered this many psychopaths as only 1 to 4% of the population can be placed into this category but it feels more like 20% to me.

A different theory for encountering so many psychopaths in my life is that I'm subconsciously drawn to them or vice versa.


How has your experience been with psychopaths?
Looking at that list of behaviors , i too can attribute many of them to a lot of people that i have known . To be honest , i have several of them myself , but usually in response to what i see in others . Control freaks i simply cannot abide , so i always live alone , and am careful socially, as i simply have neither the time or inclination to navigate my way through the minefield of human psychosis . Selfish ?, perhaps , but i have a hair trigger response set , so it really is best , for them and for me.
 
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1% of the population show psychopathic traits, which is a large amount of people. That means that one in every hundred people are in some way psychopaths. So by the odds, you are quite likely to have encountered a psycho if not actually know one.
It's also worth noting that psychopathy is not a curable mental affliction, it's something that a person with this mental trait will have for life.

Read the book The Psychopath Test by Jon Ronson it's very interesting and might answer some of your questions.