Public vs Private...

D_Tim McGnaw

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Not really, in general the right prefer to see lower taxation with less state interference and the left tend to suport the opposite.

Unless that spending is on the military or border security, or any number of other rightwing hobbyhorses.

Are you saying that the £120bn the coalition is spending on health differs from the £120bn that Labour were spending?

No. Why are you asking me that? I'm not a Labour supporter and I already pointed out that I view Labour as basically of the same economic politics (rightwing in nature) as the Conservatives.

I didn't even know you could money in a right/left wing fashion.
Well then I suggest you do some further reading on the subject.




No country on earth has ever been 100% communist but that doesn't prevent us from labelling countries such as the USSR, Cuba or China as being so. Yes China allows private wealth creation, but it's still a Communist regime, one than knows better than to allow gov't to dictate the economy to that degree.

Oh yes you can label anything you want anything you want. That doesn't make these essentially random allocations of labels accurate or meaningful.

Do you understand that saying China is a Communist regime (as opposed to merely saying it's a one party dictatorship) and yet encourages private wealth creation is completely self contradictory? A state cannot by any reasonable measure actually be Communist and encourage private wealth creation.

Incidentally the success of the Chinese economy has been due to the introduction of capitalism, before it was permitted living standards were truly abysmal. This is where we're going wrong, instead of rolling back the state (to borrow a old conservative line) we're hell bent on increasing it's scope. This has never worked in any country in the past so I don't see why it's going to help now.
The "success" of the Chinese economy is based upon the fact that it has a vast cheap labour force which its government has the power to control and exploit more effectively than other states exploit their labour forces, China places that workforce at the disposal of the rest of the world's capitalists to exploit in turn at its discretion. This has lead China to become a vast store of capital, capital it now uses to help bail out the rest of the world.

So in effect I'm arguing the complete opposite to you, the economy has gone tits up because we allowed the public sector to run riot. The private sector are now expected to clear up the mess by paying taxes and creating jobs.
Come now you must have known that was horseshit even as you wrote it. You seriously think that public sector expansion is to blame for a credit crunch created by irresponsible banks which in turn caused a global recession prompted by the collapse in private sector liquidity?

I'm used to sophistry from people who champion rightwing politics but this particular piece of nonsense (and it's become common currency in some circles recently) is so absurdly threadbare and lacking in actual logic that it's barely worth consideration and either presumes that those to whom it's addressed are idiots who've been living in cryogenic suspension for the last decade or are so beneath the dignity of being given a halfway rational argument that any old cods will do. :rolleyes:
 
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B_crackoff

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I didn't even know you could money in a right/left wing fashion.

I am so loving Money as a verb! I hope it catches on!

So in effect I'm arguing the complete opposite to you, the economy has gone tits up because we allowed the public sector to run riot. The private sector are now expected to clear up the mess by paying taxes and creating jobs.

Yup.

We are a nation. Our wealth & prospects are directly linked to our ability to compete - both internally & externally.

The public sector doesn't do any of that - all funds other than which are sufficient to allow the private sector to compete (that includes basic & above health, housing, education etc) are a waste & drain of capital resources which could be more effectively deployed elsewhere.

Here's a random fun idea. We outsource all health long time care & operations, & (LOL)state funded retirement housing to third world countries.

It would cut about £30-50 Billion off tax payers bills, including flights, fund excellent targeted educational training, skills & expertise for developing countries.

An example of competition being mutually financially beneficial to all concerned! We could cut aid too. Hehe.

ITS WHAT WE'VE DONE TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

I don't think any of those who blindly support the public sector ONLY buy UK, or equivalent domestic goods do they? Therein lies the hypocrisy.

You either support Protectionism fully, or you don't.

BTW - If you cut £100Bn in public services - that means £100Bn less tax to pay! I don't think any commensurate rise in unemployment would cost more than £30Bn.

So it always makes sense to cut them in lean times.

It's just a shame Labour raised benefits to levels clearly unsupportable in a recession. Typical - f8ck the future, vote for us now!
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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The public sector doesn't do any of that - all funds other than which are sufficient to allow the private sector to compete (that includes basic & above health, housing, education etc) are a waste & drain of capital resources which could be more effectively deployed elsewhere.

You mean more effectively deployed to make rich people richer and poor people poorer. You're a Social Darwinist.

Here's a random fun idea. We outsource all health long time care & operations, & (LOL)state funded retirement housing to third world countries.

It would cut about £30-50 Billion off tax payers bills, including flights, fund excellent targeted educational training, skills & expertise for developing countries.

An example of competition being mutually financially beneficial to all concerned! We could cut aid too. Hehe.

ITS WHAT WE'VE DONE TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

No it's the all consuming greed for profit inherent in capitalist modes of economics which drives that particular trend. Get real.

I don't think any of those who blindly support the public sector ONLY buy UK, or equivalent domestic goods do they? Therein lies the hypocrisy.

You either support Protectionism fully, or you don't.

Being in favour of public sector provision of public services has nothing to do with protectionism. That's an absurd straw man.

BTW - If you cut £100Bn in public services - that means £100Bn less tax to pay! I don't think any commensurate rise in unemployment would cost more than £30Bn.

So it always makes sense to cut them in lean times.

It's just a shame Labour raised benefits to levels clearly unsupportable in a recession. Typical - f8ck the future, vote for us now!


Yep you're a Social Darwinist, basically you think that if you're not greedy enough, not ruthless enough and not immoral enough to exploit everyone else around you effectively enough to become wealthy then you deserve to live a miserable and exploited life.

Excuse me if I pass on that disgusting notion of how our lives should be ordered thanks. :rolleyes:
 

B_crackoff

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Gotta love the way that we've never actually had commuism, or socialism!

What I do know is that Karl Marx was a workshy bastard, continually changing his faith, sponging off anyone he could, fathering children he didn't support, & passing off his illegitimate heirs as others.

He'd have loved New Labour, & of course he was an immigrant to boot!
You mean more effectively deployed to make rich people richer and poor people poorer. You're a Social Darwinist.

Wow - what ignorance. 1st class - how you get to making rich people richer is bananaramaland.


No it's the all consuming greed for profit inherent in capitalist modes of economics which drives that particular trend. Get real.

Na na na na, na na na na, heyeyey, goodbye.


Being in favour of public sector provision of public services has nothing to do with protectionism. That's an absurd straw man.

T'aint what you do it's the way that you do it.


Yep you're a Social Darwinist, basically you think that if you're not greedy enough, not ruthless enough and not immoral enough to exploit everyone else around you effectively enough to become wealthy then you deserve to live a miserable and exploited life.

Really saying something! Come on - what a hackneyed reactionary way of looking at things! Guess what? Before we had 900,000 public sector jobs added by new Labour - they were doing something else - & we have added a million immigrant workers!

Er don't you compete for jobs. Dadadadadaah! For sexual partners?

I'm all for meritocratic wealth redistribution - why you would ever think different suggests a closed mind.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ped-public-sector-jobs-boom-claims-study.html

Excuse me if I pass on that disgusting notion of how our lives should be ordered thanks. :rolleyes:
I don't know anyone who'd want a public sector plumber over a fully qualified, trade registeredprivate sector one. We all know who'd do the better job, because they depend on their reputation.

Now who's creating labels. Haha. Ever sold the Socialist Worker?

Social Darwinism only exists in a socialists mind. And as that doesn't exist...

Saving Public Sector jobs saves humanity... hehehe - I'll be smiling in my sleep.
 
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D_Tim McGnaw

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Gotta love the way that we've never actually had commuism, or socialism!

What I do know is that Karl Marx was a workshy bastard, continually changing his faith, sponging off anyone he could, fathering children he didn't support, & passing off his illegitimate heirs as others.

He'd have loved New Labour, & of course he was an immigrant to boot!


Ah so not only are you are Social Darwinist, you're a xenophobe too. That Karl Marx has inspired billions of people with his writings obviously pales in to insignificance when compared to your contribution to human civilisation which is what exactly?
 

B_crackoff

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Ah so not only are you are Social Darwinist, you're a xenophobe too. That Karl Marx has inspired billions of people with his writings obviously pales in to insignificance when compared to your contribution to human civilisation which is what exactly?

Inspired people to killed hundreds of millions more like. Create murdering state police, kill all opposition.

You failed to notice the immigrant part was a joke! You must be a socialist. My Darwin gene sensors tell me you've no sense of humour.

I'm guessing you don't freelance as a comic!

I bet your Socialism kills more than Social Darwinism anyday.

It certainly has so far!:biggrin1:
 

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Unless that spending is on the military or border security, or any number of other rightwing hobbyhorses.


Except that the "right wing" coalition are reducing spending on defence and are currently trying to renoegotiate the myraid of contracts worth £bns that New Labour signed.

Building up the military is the something the left engage it too, take the USSR as an example. They weren't exactly shy of purachasing a nuclear warhead or two.


No. Why are you asking me that? I'm not a Labour supporter and I already pointed out that I view Labour as basically of the same economic politics (rightwing in nature) as the Conservatives.

Well then I suggest you do some further reading on the subject.
No amount of reading up is going to make us see eye to eye on this matter, I've done my reading and know what's at stake here.






Oh yes you can label anything you want anything you want. That doesn't make these essentially random allocations of labels accurate or meaningful.

Do you understand that saying China is a Communist regime (as opposed to merely saying it's a one party dictatorship) and yet encourages private wealth creation is completely self contradictory? A state cannot by any reasonable measure actually be Communist and encourage private wealth creation.
I think we're getting off the point. China are considered to be Commnist by just about everyone apart from yourself, yet despite this the West's governments spend more into the economy that China's. I'd say the public sector have had a fair crack of the whip and it's been a disaster.

The "success" of the Chinese economy is based upon the fact that it has a vast cheap labour force which its government has the power to control and exploit more effectively than other states exploit their labour forces, China places that workforce at the disposal of the rest of the world's capitalists to exploit in turn at its discretion. This has lead China to become a vast store of capital, capital it now uses to help bail out the rest of the world.
Yes, it abuses it's workforce because it's a communist regime. All communists statess do this.

Come now you must have known that was horseshit even as you wrote it. You seriously think that public sector expansion is to blame for a credit crunch created by irresponsible banks which in turn caused a global recession prompted by the collapse in private sector liquidity?
It was the government that bought all this crap and stuck it on the public's balance sheet. If the capitalist solution had been adopted then the banks would have been allowed to fail, house prices would have crashed and we could have gotten over the worst of this by now. Instead they're trying to string it out over a decade or two and using my money to fund it.

I'm used to sophistry from people who champion rightwing politics but this particular piece of nonsense (and it's become common currency in some circles recently) is so absurdly threadbare and lacking in actual logic that it's barely worth consideration and either presumes that those to whom it's addressed are idiots who've been living in cryogenic suspension for the last decade or are so beneath the dignity of being given a halfway rational argument that any old cods will do. :rolleyes:
You're interpretation clearly differs from mine, but I doubt you've read up on the subject as much as me which is why I don't trust your judgement on this particular issue. I'd prefer to stick to my own.

The party of big government (labour) have tried their best to make the public sector work by reaching for the chequebook anytime something went wrong, yet all they've accomplished is the creation of one of the most generously paid but unproductive workforces in the world.

They were like a weak parent that gave in anytime their kid demanded a sweetie, and now the coalition have to instill a bit of displine into a stroppy, overpaid public sector used to getting their own way all the time. They may not be directly responsible for the banking crash but they've certainly added to the nation's financial woes. Brown was racking up budget deficits way before the 3rd quarter of 2007.
 
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dandelion

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Originally Posted by dandelion
Government computer contracts are all done by PRIVATE INDUSTRY!

I think the ones who f*cked up the court system went tits up after receiving £billions, & Fujitsu succesfully contested, that as no one had ever done what they wanted, they weren't responsible for its timescale or cost!
I really dont know how this is a justification of private industry. More an example of its failures. They were more than happy to take the money for something which retrospectively they claimed was impossible!

The no. of Government IT workers hasn't gone down at all, I'm sure - just a lot of people jumped ship for more cash in projects that were never completed.
Im sure the number of IT people is now higher because now computers are everywhere. This was pre- PC! Specifically I remember one neighbour who was worried for his job because of the wave of downsizing and later met someone in private IT training who used to work for government. That and the news announcements of the cuts. Like everyone else the government now has IT people, but it gave up the ability to design in-house projects like a national NHS database. This is Thatcherism we are talking.

The problems in the IT systems in the military (how many billions did those helicopters cost?),
Um, private sector failure?

the sale of Qiniteq, the Treasury sale of gold AT THE LOWEST BID PRICE, let alone at its lowest level for decades, educational, Health, police etc ineffectual harmonisation of purchasing, all cost billions in overexpenditure, & ALL those decisions are made by public servants WHO DON'T GET SACKED!
Your saying quinetiq should have stayed in public ownership? Im afraid all this smacks of forced outsourcing, this time by a labour government. Both sides are pursuing this chimera that private sector is better.

600,000 kids privately educated/year saves us £3.5Bn!
I'm not complaining! But I also do not see the state planning to send all children to private schools at twice the price however much better education they get! This is not about the private sector being more efficient but having more resources for each child.

Private schools are broadly a success, and are mostly charitable non-profit foundations. There are quite a few companies trying to break into the state education system which are definitely in it to make money. What do you reckon, this will inevitably mean they fail to improve standards? Shareholders sucking out money is bad news.

If you want to follow the example of successful education, then I would suggest setting up charitable foundations or cooperatives to run industry.

It's worse than you think. We're forced to pay for, & occupy bulidings for schools, hopitals, & most of the entire Government departments - and at the end of that - We're HOMELESS! We don't own a brick of it. What a con. What a New Labour rip off(I bet the Tories wish they could have gotten away with it though:smile:) to pay for obscene rises in social provision
I dont know how old you are, or if you have a short memory. PFI was well established under the last conservative government and reports of its disasters were already in the news. One of the hoped for changes under new labour was that they would get rid of it. Well they didnt. They went conservative instead and adopted it.

I briefly worked for a company looking to take over the Millenium Dome. 6 HOURS into it, we recommended - no f*cking way! I mean, that's got to be a record!
The dome was a conservative project initially in the hands of Michael Heseltine. By the time labour came to power it was already attracting ridicule for its incompetent organisation. Initially the cons attempted to get private industry to run it. Didnt work out well.

It gets like that in FTSE 100 companies too, I agree - I saw shocking practices - continued simply because the top brass had their own time scale, & f8ck the future - a complete muddle though.
The difference is, in the long term, those companies go tits up/ get fined ( & technically directors charged), but there is no equivalent sanction in the public sector.

Right. yes. people running banks which created the biggest financial failures ever known were punished by 1) staying in their jobs after the companies were rescuedand continuing to get vast bonuses or 2)retired on humongous pensions. Im glad the equivalent sanction in the public sector is not yet on quite such a big scale.

Well that's an argument for private enterprise! That said, in 1900 -the trains were bloody faster than they are now(station to station)! And more punctual.:smile:
Yes, where I live the privatised train company extended journey times as timetabled so as to make it easier to meet its punctuality targets. Instead of sometimes taking 10 minutes longer, journeys now always take 10 minutes longer.

Too true - but every Government is wholly in their pockets! It was the greatest transfer of wealth from the poor & middle income earners in history - theft on a massive scale, politically agreed to by all major parties! They don't represent us, they represent the bank's interests.
Im not going to disagree this one. It is a fine example of what private industry does if you let it. However, not so much of the 'was'. This is still going on, even being encouraged by government. It gets worse: banks now claim they must not even be taxed!


Gordon Brown raised GP/dentist/ judicial salaries so much,that where the average GP earned £63k in 2001, they now earn £107k
.
Funny thing, university education. We used to give free university education because we believed we needed certain trained people. Like for example dentists. Now we make everyone pay for doing anything they fancy. maybe the solution is to train some more dentists for free and therefore put some market pressures onto cutting their wages. And stop pushing university education as the answer to everything. Three years not spent at university is three years you could have early retirement.

Pensions, is it? Right now we have swathes of unemployed and the country is rich. In the future there may be fewer workers and more pensioners, but I do not see us running out of workers to fill the available jobs. This is not a looming disaster. What it may be is a relatively small proportion who now are looking forward to very high pensions, which will not be affordable. This is all tied up with wage inequality in this country, which is way too high. The public sector has followed the lead of the private sector in this: it is another consequence of forcing the public to copy the private. I'd agree, the public sector needs to scale back top salaries which will push down lower salaries too. A good start would be MPS showing an example and getting rid of those expenses (...still there!).

Slashing tax breaks on big pension contributions would be handy, too. It isnt just public sector pensions which are unaffordable. There is theory that if you put enough money into a private pension it will give you a certain return. If public pensions become unaffordable from tax revenue, you can be certain private pension funds will also suffer falls in their revenues.

You are right that some will be retiring on very large pensions, but I am also sure most will not, even where they belong to pension schemes on exactly the same terms. The numbers say that most public sector workers will only get modest work related pensions. I dont object to people having pension plans
 

dandelion

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It's a shame that debate generally focusses on the negatives of capitalism, the positives are almost always glossed over or ignored entirely.
In a similar way that the debate focusses on the negatives of the state sector? Enemies on either side like to play up the bad points!

No country on earth has ever been 100% communist but that doesn't prevent us from labelling countries such as the USSR, Cuba or China as being so. Yes China allows private wealth creation, but it's still a Communist regime, one than knows better than to allow gov't to dictate the economy to that degree.
So thats communist in the sense that tudor england was communist, then? State control by an entrenched aristocracy? Or similarly as the US is now?
 

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In a similar way that the debate focusses on the negatives of the state sector? Enemies on either side like to play up the bad points!

The lefties that I know would prefer to see the outright abolition of capitalism and blame it for all our problems, the righties on the other hand generally take a more pragmatic approach. They accept the need for the state but argue that there's a trade off when you increase it's scope, it's expensive and it often tramples over individual liberty. The left seem to be able to block out these conerns from their mind, which makes sensible dialogue between both camps often impossible.

Capitalism has done a lot of good for mankind, put it this way, you never heard of Western Berliners that attempted to sneak into the east. It was always the other way around, and for good reason.

So thats communist in the sense that tudor england was communist, then? State control by an entrenched aristocracy? Or similarly as the US is now?

They're plutocracies perhaps? I don't know, I'm not a history buff.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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Now who's creating labels. Haha. Ever sold the Socialist Worker?

Social Darwinism only exists in a socialists mind. And as that doesn't exist...

Saving Public Sector jobs saves humanity... hehehe - I'll be smiling in my sleep.


Oh sorry I gave you the credit of being at least passably intelligent, but you seem to think the Daily Mail is a reliable journal of record, and you don't believe Social Darwinism exists, clearly I overestimated you.

Seriously Social Darwinism doesn't exist? The OED, Websters, Encyclopedia Britannica etc must be informed of this news.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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I think we're getting off the point. China are considered to be Commnist by just about everyone apart from yourself, yet despite this the West's governments spend more into the economy that China's. I'd say the public sector have had a fair crack of the whip and it's been a disaster.

If you think I'm the only person who thinks China is not and never has been Communist then you're incredibly poorly informed, in fact with exception of Albania (perhaps) no country on earth has ever actually claimed to be Communist, they may have claimed to be on the road to Communism, or used some variant of the term Communist or Socialist to describe or in most cases disguise what they were attempting to create but this is not the same thing as saying "China is Communist".

Mao himself admitted that the political theories outlined by Marx and other European Socialists were not applicable to China because China's society did not fit the conditions European Socialists described which would allow the development of Socialism. As a result Mao rewrote Marxist theory and invented Maoism, promulgated in his Little Red Book.

Modern historians frequently point out that historical regimes which described themselves as Socialist, such as the USSR and it's satellites, were in fact nothing to do with Marxism when viewed objectively and that close examination proves them to have been little more than nationalist one party state dictatorships in which there are no signs of the kind of social revolution described by Marx.

In reality comparisons between states which have self identified as Socialist and those which have been labeled Fascist reveal virtually no differences, the differences have only ever been ones of Propaganda and posturing. No self identified Socialist state has ever come close to instituting the kind of social revolution described by Marx and other Socialist theorists, with the minor exception of Anarchist held parts of Spain during the Spanish Civil War.

It's worth remembering that Marx himself made it clear that many if not most states he was familiar with did not contain the kind of advanced industrial development necessary to allow a worker's revolution to take place as he described it. Russia he was at pains to make clear was one of those under developed states.

Yes, it abuses it's workforce because it's a communist regime. All communists statess do this.

Currently every state in the world does this regardless of its political alignment. China is merely more adept at it than most.

It was the government that bought all this crap and stuck it on the public's balance sheet. If the capitalist solution had been adopted then the banks would have been allowed to fail, house prices would have crashed and we could have gotten over the worst of this by now. Instead they're trying to string it out over a decade or two and using my money to fund it.

No in fact markets demanded to be recapitalised and the private sector blackmailed the world with threats of total economic meltdown in order to wring vast amounts of money from taxpayers to cover the debts private sector companies had amassed through their addiction to socially irresponsible gambling and malpractice. So called capitalists all over the world are paying themselves enormous salaries and bonuses as we speak with Taxpayer's money, effectively making themselves publicly employed, if not actual public servants.

You're of course correct that if the dictates of pure capitalism had been instituted none of this would be the case, but what you describe as being "over the worst" is in fact a euphemism for a total economic breakdown far greater in magnitude than the one we're now in which would have plunged billions into a far more acute and extreme financial crisis than is already the case.

The fact that the public sector was solvent in many countries and as substantial as it was made it possible for governments to redirect capital from government expenditure into the pockets of debt ridden private sector companies who had squandered their wealth making ever more absurdly greedy wagers on increasingly unreal investments.

Make no mistake it is public sector workers who by taking huge pay cuts and redundancies are paying for Bankers and other Capitalists to continue to have their grotesquely over paid jobs. If you think that Capitalists who see dollar signs instead of population figures are at all interested in doing anything but exploit the bonanza of cheap investments created by the market revaluations they brought about then you are deluded. And if you think they want you to benefit from this exploitation then you are mad.





The party of big government (labour) have tried their best to make the public sector work by reaching for the chequebook anytime something went wrong, yet all they've accomplished is the creation of one of the most generously paid but unproductive workforces in the world.

In fact the Tory party have traditionally increased government spending and enlarged the scope of government despite their claims to the contrary. But if you're so well read on the matter you probably already know that right?

They were like a weak parent that gave in anytime their kid demanded a sweetie, and now the coalition have to instill a bit of displine into a stroppy, overpaid public sector used to getting their own way all the time. They may not be directly responsible for the banking crash but they've certainly added to the nation's financial woes. Brown was racking up budget deficits way before the 3rd quarter of 2007.


Gordon Brown did that exactly because he was enthralled by lies and blatant fantasies sold to him by private sector propagandists who pretended that markets are capable of producing never ending streams of ever increasing profits which by their very nature (it was pretended) would have some kind of socially beneficial effect. The Banking collapse exposes this as untrue. In fact so limited was the scope for profit maximisation within what is supposed to be Capitalism's most profitable sector that Banks had to invent essentially fictitious investments to gamble with in order to continue to pretend that they had discovered the font of never ending wealth.

If you think this kind of malpractice and incompetence and blatant con-artistry is any kind of replacement for the incompetence of politicians like Tony Blair and Gordon Brown then you live as imaginary a world as they did.
 
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B_crackoff

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Oh sorry I gave you the credit of being at least passably intelligent, but you seem to think the Daily Mail is a reliable journal of record, and you don't believe Social Darwinism exists, clearly I overestimated you.

Pif, Paf, Pof - What journal is? SD is just another leftie label. It means nothing. You either believe in the merits of the theory of evolution, or you do not - & that transposes itself to all life - or not.

Seriously Social Darwinism doesn't exist? The OED, Websters, Encyclopedia Britannica etc must be informed of this news.

But those weighty tomes are full of lies about China, Russia, Vietnam etc being Communist or Socialist.:biggrin1: I wouldn't think you'd recommend them.

Some of us have books & Encyclopedias decades old just to prevent such editing of the past without objection.

Hands up who says we're communist!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_communist_states
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/129234/Communist-Party-of-Cuba
 
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If you think I'm the only person who thinks China is not and never has been Communist then you're incredibly poorly informed, in fact with exception of Albania (perhaps) no country on earth has ever actually claimed to be Communist, they may have claimed to be on the road to Communism, or used some variant of the term Communist or Socialist to describe or in most cases disguise what they were attempting to create but this is not the same thing as saying "China is Communist".

Mao himself admitted that the political theories outlined by Marx and other European Socialists were not applicable to China because China's society did not fit the conditions European Socialists described which would allow the development of Socialism. As a result Mao rewrote Marxist theory and invented Maoism, promulgated in his Little Red Book.

Modern historians frequently point out that historical regimes which described themselves as Socialist, such as the USSR and it's satellites, were in fact nothing to do with Marxism when viewed from objectively and that close examination proves them to have been little more than nationalist one party state dictatorships in which there are no signs of the kind of social revolution described by Marx.

In reality comparisons between states which have self identified as Socialist and those which have been labeled Fascist reveal virtually no differences, the differences have only ever been ones of Propaganda and posturing. No self identified Socialist state has ever come close to instituting the kind of social revolution described by Marx and other Socialist theorists, with the minor exception of Anarchist held parts of Spain during the Spanish Civil War.

This sounds like a classic case of cognitive dissonance to me. The real world results of communism are often horrific for those on the receiving end, so it's natural for supporters to deny that is was their ideology to blame. When it turns into tyranny (which it always does, communism cannot function without the jackboot of the state in people's faces) advocates argue that those in charge weren't following the rules properly so it was never "true" socialism that was responsible. You can only use this line so many times before it becomes invalid, as Hayek pointed out: when socialism fails because it's a rotten theory socialists use it's failure as a springboard to argue for more statism, they'll continue to do this until the entire economy is under thir grasp. Then there's no escape.


It's worth remembering that Marx himself made it clear that many if not most states he was familiar with did not contain the kind of advanced industrial development necessary to allow a worker's revolution to take place as he described it. Russia he was at pains to make clear was one of those under developed states.

Perhaps I've misunderstood you but Marx died in 1883, Russia didn't become communist until 1917.


Currently every state in the world does this regardless of its political alignment. China is merely more adept at it than most.

Yes, because it's communist. The state demands more control over the lives of citizens.


No in fact markets demanded to be recapitalised and the private sector blackmailed the world with threats of total economic meltdown in order to wring vast amounts of money from taxpayers to cover the debts private sector companies had amassed through their addiction to socially irresponsible gambling and malpractice. So called capitalists all over the world are paying themselves enormous salaries and bonuses as we speak with Taxpayer's money, effectively making themselves publicly employed, if not actual public servants.

You're of course correct that if the dictates of pure capitalism had been instituted none of this would be the case, but what you describe as being "over the worst" is in fact a euphemism for a total economic breakdown far greater in magnitude than the one we're now in which would have plunged billions into a far more acute and extreme financial crisis than is already the case.

The fact that the public sector was solvent in many countries and as substantial as it was made it possible for governments to redirect capital from government expenditure into the pockets of debt ridden private sector companies who had squandered their wealth making ever more absurdly greedy wagers on increasingly unreal investments.

Make no mistake it is public sector workers who by taking huge pay cuts and redundancies are paying for Bankers and other Capitalists to continue to have their grotesquely over paid jobs. If you think that Capitalists who see dollar signs instead of population figures are at all interested in doing anything but exploit the bonanza of cheap investments created by the market revaluations they brought about then you are deluded. And if you think they want you to benefit from this exploitation then you are mad.


This is just grandstanding and hand wringing, if that's how you feel about the credit crunch then fine. But these are only your opinions (one's that are echoed by the labour party) and the public have made their mind up on whether they believe this sort of ideology. The politicians were happy to take the credit when times were good but when the economy turned to dust they even quicker to blame the "capitalists".

It seems they want to have their cake and eat it, and you're fine with letting them do this.




In fact the Tory party have traditionally increased government spending and enlarged the scope of government despite their claims to the contrary. But if you're so well read on the matter you probably already know that right?

Not quite true. When the Conservatives handed the batton over in 97 the economy was in very good shape. So much so that the government were even running a budget surplus and paying down the national debt. Gordon Brown continued with the Tories' spending commitments until 2001 and generated a surplus in every financial year, when he finally let rip with his own plans the public's balance sheet took the hit. Things have gone downhill ever since.

But of course you know all this, and you're not just basing your opinions on how the world should be, not what it's actually like.




Gordon Brown did that exactly because he was enthralled by lies and blatant fantasies sold to him by private sector propagandists who pretended that markets are capable of producing never ending streams of ever increasing profits which by their very nature (it was pretended) would have some kind of socially beneficial effect. The Banking collapse exposes this as untrue. In fact so limited was the scope for profit maximisation within what is supposed to be Capitalism's most profitable sector that Banks had to invent essentially fictitious investments to gamble with in order to continue to pretend that they had discovered the font of never ending wealth.

If you think this kind of malpractice and incompetence and blatant con-artistry is any kind of replacement for the incompetence of politicians like Tony Blair and Gordon Brown then you live as imaginary a world as they did.


Gambling and taking a punt on the markets isn't the same thing as capitalism, it's convenient for opponents to lazily merge the two but it doesn't really get us anywhere.

I think it's actually you that engaged in a fantasy land, just trotting out diatribes against The Bankers adds more confusion to a subject that is already heavily bogged down with misinformation and crocked theory.

If you want an increase in the public sector then ultimately you'll have to pay even more in taxation to fund it, I doubt your fellow countrymen share your vision right now.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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This sounds like a classic case of cognitive dissonance to me. The real world results of communism are often horrific for those on the receiving end, so it's natural for supporters to deny that is was their ideology to blame. When it turns into tyranny (which it always does, communism cannot function without the jackboot of the state in people's faces) advocates argue that those in charge weren't following the rules properly so it was never "true" socialism that was responsible. You can only use this line so many times before it becomes invalid, as Hayek pointed out: when socialism fails because it's a rotten theory socialists use it's failure as a springboard to argue for more statism, they'll continue to do this until the entire economy is under thir grasp. Then there's no escape.


The dissonance is created by the disparity between what Marxist theory requires and what real world states actually did. It's all there in black and white. In any case I'm not a Marxist so whether or not Marxism itself is a viable program for governance is not something I would contend.




Perhaps I've misunderstood you but Marx died in 1883, Russia didn't become communist until 1917.

I'm not sure what you're contending, Russia in 1917 was hardly all that different to the Russia of the 1880s. Marx was asked about which countries he felt were ripe for revolution, he dismissed the possibility of the success of revolution in Russia.




Yes, because it's communist. The state demands more control over the lives of citizens.

This is becoming circular. No, it's because China is a one party dictatorship. If China were actually Communist it would be the imagined workers paradise of Marx and would be incapable of exploiting its workers in the way it does. But I'm begining to suspect you haven't even read Marx so this discussion is pointless.



Not quite true. When the Conservatives handed the batton over in 97 the economy was in very good shape. So much so that the government were even running a budget surplus and paying down the national debt. Gordon Brown continued with the Tories' spending commitments until 2001 and generated a surplus in every financial year, when he finally let rip with his own plans the public's balance sheet took the hit. Things have gone downhill ever since.

But of course you know all this, and you're not just basing your opinions on how the world should be, not what it's actually like.

How many times do I have to say I that I actually think both the Tories and Labour are totally incompetent and neither has anything like the record of sensible and humane politics which make them actually suitable for government? You can pretend I'm somehow a partisan of the Labour party if it suits you to do so, but that doesn't make it true.







Gambling and taking a punt on the markets isn't the same thing as capitalism, it's convenient for opponents to lazily merge the two but it doesn't really get us anywhere.

I think it's actually you that engaged in a fantasy land, just trotting out diatribes against The Bankers adds more confusion to a subject that is already heavily bogged down with misinformation and crocked theory.

If you want an increase in the public sector then ultimately you'll have to pay even more in taxation to fund it, I doubt your fellow countrymen share your vision right now.


Gambling isn't Capitalist? Whatever next? Bankers aren't responsible for the global recession? Selling ficitious investments isn't the epitome of Capitalism either? You really are doctrinaire I might even go so far as to say a Devotee. Your life must be very simple, I slightly envy you.

Oh and where on earth have I said I think public sector expansion is desirable? Go on, quote me.
 

dandelion

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The lefties that I know would prefer to see the outright abolition of capitalism and blame it for all our problems, the righties on the other hand generally take a more pragmatic approach.
I dont know where you are from or what sort of 'lefties' you mean. In british politics the 'left' is generally considered the labour party. They have just come to the end of a period of fond romance with the capitalist financial sector where they couldnt get enough of it. I dont recall one of them who wanted to abolish capitalism. Virtually every uk politician is interested in taming capitalism and making it work for them. The right is currently going on about the ills of public sector spending and the need to cut taxes to encourage the capitalist private sector. Yet in practice they have not cut taxes. Nor did they in the past.

Capitalism has done a lot of good for mankind, put it this way,
Nearly as much as the state investing in roads, minimum safety standards, health care, basic pensions...and so forth?

you never heard of Western Berliners that attempted to sneak into the east. It was always the other way around, and for good reason.
Because they hated dictatorships and liked civil rights? what does that have to do with capitalism or socialism?
 

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Gambling isn't Capitalist? Whatever next? Bankers aren't responsible for the global recession? Selling ficitious investments isn't the epitome of Capitalism either?

Insurance is gambling. I imagine that you have some. Are the marketmakers or the punters capitalistic? Any decision we make is a gamble & a risk, from consuming that last dodgy looking curried prawn, to buying a house, hoping you haven't overextended yourself, prices won't fall, & that the neighbours will be sweethearted.

Bankers are only responsible insofar as the Public Sector regulators (haha - I think we all agree on them), & governments let them be, via legislation.

Too many people in the decision making parts of the public sector/government, read classics, politics, or law at uni, & have no clue how the organisations whose balls are in their hands work, bottom up.

I can tell you from expert experience that's how most things cock up.

Greece's cock up has nothing to do with bankers, & all to do with economic mismanagement, & as previously posted, despite using off balance sheet finanace, Brown/Clinton/Bush were still spending us into massive debt - without the aid of bankers.

Any position that says "but the bankers are getting away with it" is childish. Of course they shouldn't, but we would still need deep public sector cuts to offset the profligacy of Brown.

Did you see that Hedge Fund manager on Question Time. He wiped the floor with the politicos.

I posted on other sites the bailout was a rape -but consider the fact that the unions, public sector - hell everyone would be moaning & striking if we hadn't - because it would have been worse!

And that's still what we should have done, & could still do.

2-3 years of unbelievable pain, & then out. The opportunity to get rid of those shysters & jail them, create an equitable system for the young, workers & pensioners, & regain control of our economy & currency. (though of course some wanker politician would do the same shite over again - securitise, & loan in order for political success)

We've got another 9 years of this shit!
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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Insurance is gambling. I imagine that you have some. Are the marketmakers or the punters capitalistic? Any decision we make is a gamble & a risk, from consuming that last dodgy looking curried prawn, to buying a house, hoping you haven't overextended yourself, prices won't fall, & that the neighbours will be sweethearted.

Bankers are only responsible insofar as the Public Sector regulators (haha - I think we all agree on them), & governments let them be, via legislation.

Too many people in the decision making parts of the public sector/government, read classics, politics, or law at uni, & have no clue how the organisations whose balls are in their hands work, bottom up.

I can tell you from expert experience that's how most things cock up.

Greece's cock up has nothing to do with bankers, & all to do with economic mismanagement, & as previously posted, despite using off balance sheet finanace, Brown/Clinton/Bush were still spending us into massive debt - without the aid of bankers.

Any position that says "but the bankers are getting away with it" is childish. Of course they shouldn't, but we would still need deep public sector cuts to offset the profligacy of Brown.

Did you see that Hedge Fund manager on Question Time. He wiped the floor with the politicos.

I posted on other sites the bailout was a rape -but consider the fact that the unions, public sector - hell everyone would be moaning & striking if we hadn't - because it would have been worse!

And that's still what we should have done, & could still do.

2-3 years of unbelievable pain, & then out. The opportunity to get rid of those shysters & jail them, create an equitable system for the young, workers & pensioners, & regain control of our economy & currency. (though of course some wanker politician would do the same shite over again - securitise, & loan in order for political success)

We've got another 9 years of this shit!



Remarkably I find I have little or nothing to disagree with in this post in general terms.

I agree that a political failure occurred which allowed the private sector to behave in irresponsible ways, but I don't see that as a one way street. The regulatory framework was agreed by governments which had a totally false impression of what the private sector was capable of doing for good or for ill, and that impression was created by the private sector which would do anything to be allowed to remain relatively un-regulated.

Naivete or crass stupidity on the part of politicians of almost all parties and creeds undoubtedly played its part in this.

However political failures are not the same as the failures of the public sector, and in a reckoning I suspect that the burden of failure falls hardest on the private sector and the politicians who fell for its blandishments.

That's exactly why I cannot understand any government trying to place public service provision in the hands of the private sector, it seems to be a replay of the mistakes of the past.
 

dandelion

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well id quibble with the bit about the politicians leading us into massive debt without the help of bankers. What brown did was ride the edge of what was sustainable. The opposition agreed with him it was doable. What screwed up the figures was the banker-induced crash. Sure, we would be in a better position now if we had statrted saving 10 years ago. But what sensible government is going to save trillions of pounds just in case all their financial advisers are wrong? (ok, Norway has a national trust fund but that has a lot to do with loads of oil revenue going to just 5 million people. Alaska just gives everyone an annual handout.)