Quality of your circumcision

My circumcision : -

  • is nothing out of the ordinary

    Votes: 217 50.7%
  • left an uneven scar line

    Votes: 50 11.7%
  • left one or more skin bridges

    Votes: 8 1.9%
  • left one or more skin tags

    Votes: 13 3.0%
  • left one or more stitch-marks or suture holes

    Votes: 29 6.8%
  • left one or more scars on my glans

    Votes: 15 3.5%
  • left something else out of the ordinary

    Votes: 18 4.2%
  • never happened

    Votes: 114 26.6%

  • Total voters
    428

baseball99

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SteveHd said:
You should certainly know the First Tenet of the Hippocratic Oath: Primum Non Nocere: First, Do No Harm.

i always laugh when people bring this up. You do understand the Do No Harm is in the eye of the physician, not the eye of the patient. Dont even try and argue that first point because you will be wrong unless you experience it every day......

Do no harm controversies

1. end of life care
2. abortions
3. blood transfusions to jehovahs witnesses
4. assisted suicide
5. psychiatric lockdown
6. apparently circumcision

if a doctor never did any harm as defined by the patient, the doctor wouldnt be able to do anything......

I could see it now "No Dr i dont want that antibiotic for my multi-drug resistant tuberculosis bc ITS MY CHOICE"
 

B_dxjnorto

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Baseball, I agree with what you say about antibiotics. Where antibiotics fail, they are worse than not having taken them in the first place. This is probably what happened to donkeyboy9.

Nevertheless, you have a tendency to stretch a thought to the snapping point. What does routine infant circumcision as condoned by you, superactive and yours have to do with numbers 1-5?
 

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Snozzle said:
Are you saying that in such a case, the doctor should forcibly medicate the patient, or what?

under certain circumstances yes......im very happy you brought it up. Thats why i was laughing at the "do no harm" comment. Do no harm to whom? A patient comes in with multi-drug resistant tuberculosis, which is a mandatory reportable disease. The patient refuses treatment. So what do you do? Would you say oh i took the oath to do no harm, have a nice day? If you did that you are now risking exposing hundreds and thousands of people to an easily transmissible infection that could kill anyone with a weakened immune systme within a matter of months or even healthy people within a matter of years. So under those circumstances, yes getting a court order and forcing the patient to be admitted to the hospital is "doing less harm".....see, the whole do no harm thing is not as easy as non-medical people throw it around to be.
 

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dxjnorto said:
Baseball, I agree with what you say about antibiotics. Where antibiotics fail, they are worse than not having taken them in the first place. This is probably what happened to donkeyboy9.

Nevertheless, you have a tendency to stretch a thought to the snapping point. What does routine infant circumcision as condoned by you, superactive and yours have to do with numbers 1-5?

I take pride in that. Routine infant circumcision is not condoned by me.....ok well maybe if you use the defition of condone as in aollowed, as in im not going to picket if a kid gets circumcised then yes i condone it. Do i persuade parents into it.....of course not. We have very unbiased literature given to parents regarding the issue and we answer any questions. I can ultimately say my conversations with patients have not changed their mind either way.....which is how it should be. And #1-5, i have definitely experienced situations where the do no harm was much more complex in 1-5 than it is in circumcision.
Also, just to note, your term of routine infant circumcision is out of date. It's not routine but it does happen often. there is a difference
 

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Well, superactive, I see the radicals have jumped in. I figured they would eventually jump in and I'm surprised they stayed out as long as they did. Anyway, yesterday afternoon, I wrote a draft reply to your prior message and I'm putting it in anyway.
SuperActive said:
Yes, antibiotics will cure the infection, but they don't cure the tight foreskin that causes the infection. Alleviating the symptom of a problem without dealing with the cause isn't a long term solution. Until the foreskin is either stretched, loosened or cut, the poor victim will get repeated infections and therefore have to take repeated doses of antibiotics, something that is not recommended in adults let alone in children.
I thought that I had implied or inferred that if both infection and phimosis are present then antibiotics would be combined with a conservative treatment of the phimosis. I hope that's clear now.
With regard to informed consent. Children aren't able to give informed consent to anything. Should we not operate on their hernias, etc. until they are able to give consent?
In USA, only parents and legal guardians can give consent to surgery on a child. The child mostly has no say in the matter, and thus, that makes it more imperative that conservative treatments be pursued first. If those fail, then progress to surgery. O.T.O.H. for something like a Stage I or Stage II malignancy then surgery is the first choice and as quickly as possible.

Note about USA: The situation that we've been discussing - infection with phimosis - is essentially hypothetical. If a boy in the USA still has his foreskin and these two problems occur, say at age 8, it's quite likely the boy will whisked to a hospital and the foreskin and frenulum removed w/o any consideration of a conservative treatment. Often no alternatives will even be presented. The mentality of USA Medicine is: the foreskin shouldn't be there in the first place.
I've never been involved in Neonatal circumcision (although it would depend how you define neonatal?)
As I understand it, neonatal means the first month. Most circumcisions being done in USA are neonatal and are done without any medical indication. Sad, wouldn't you say?

So, that's what I wrote yesterday but didn't have time to proofread and submit. Now that the radicals are involved, I'd say our civil debate has come to an end. You might want to get out now. If you thought I was "confrontational and argumentative" just watch what those guys will do.
 

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dxjnorto said:
Then why are you doing them? It's a living, right? Tell the truth so everyone can see that it is a business.

Opt out dude. It's immoral.

What do you know about selling the purloined tissue?

Thanks in advance,
Jerry

I never said that was doing circumcisions for social reasons. I work in a UK NHS hospital where you'd be very unlikely to get a circumcision for any reason apart from a medical one. Also, you seem to be under the impression that I'm employed as a baby circumciser. Circumcision is really a very small part of what of I do. Spend more time treating cancer, replacing hips, knees, etc. fixing up trauma victims, resuscitating the dead, you name it. So I sleep very soundly in my bed at night.

With regard to selling the foreskin. Never been involved in it. In the UK we throw the foreskin away. One bloke asked if he could keep it but wasn't allowed to because of Health and Safety issues. Who buys the foreskins and what do they do with them?
 

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Mine came out perfect, it is, what it is ! A virtual work of art for a very select group of ladies only. Besides, even if the doctor fucked it up, he's probably dead by now anyway, not to mention the hassle of tracking him down to sue him.
 

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SuperActive said:
I never said that was doing circumcisions for social reasons. I work in a UK NHS hospital where you'd be very unlikely to get a circumcision for any reason apart from a medical one. Also, you seem to be under the impression that I'm employed as a baby circumciser. Circumcision is really a very small part of what of I do. Spend more time treating cancer, replacing hips, knees, etc. fixing up trauma victims, resuscitating the dead, you name it. So I sleep very soundly in my bed at night.

With regard to selling the foreskin. Never been involved in it. In the UK we throw the foreskin away. One bloke asked if he could keep it but wasn't allowed to because of Health and Safety issues. Who buys the foreskins and what do they do with them?

in the US foreskin can be harvested for skin grafts that are used on burn victims and non-healing ulcers.....im surprised they dont do this "across the pond" :wink:

anyways yeh i was also labeled as a crazed circumcision fanatic that went into nurseries late at night and chopped little boys penises because as an MD i have absolutely nothing better to do and im bitter with my parents for having me cut:rolleyes: .....i seriously hope the sarcasm is screaming here.....thats why i gave up in the circumcision debates here. some people will state there is never a medical reason to do it ever.....they obviously have never spent a day on the wards. I can honestly say that i would treat a young child conservatively first but the first sign of renal infection i would insist the circumcision......not force it but insist it. Why? Because i would much rather see this kid get circumcised than continue to treat conservatively and destroy a kidney.....
 

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SuperActive said:
With regard to selling the foreskin. Never been involved in it. In the UK we throw the foreskin away. One bloke asked if he could keep it but wasn't allowed to because of Health and Safety issues. Who buys the foreskins and what do they do with them?
SuperActive, I'm glad you don't have to do those things, as I know sometimes it can be difficult to opt out of procedures that are considered a part of your job. I still think that on a moral basis, you don't have to do things that are against your principles. Cutting infants with no medical indication would definitely be one of those things for me.

As for selling the tissue, I wonder if baseball can provide more information? Somehow the tissue gets from the hospital to various entities that process it.

In a Men's Health article [Jenkins, M. (1998, July/August). Separated at birth. Men’s Health, 130-135, 163.] they said that the foreskin would fetch about $40 at the time. As you might imagine, baby foreskins make excellent seed culture for skin graft products, as baseball has said, as well as for very expensive skin care products. One brand name is TNS recovery complex. It's engineered from human foreskin said a Dr. Wexler when she appeared on Oprah last year to tout the product.

This adds a further element of moral confusion to the U.S. practice of still nearly routine infant circumcision. In another thread baseball has explained that U.S. parents are told, “you have a baby boy, you have a very important decision to make.” If that isn't marketing, I don't know what is.

“...the practice of routine circumcision rests on the absurd premise that the only mammal in creation born in the condition that requires immediate surgical correction is the human male.” Thomas Szasz, M.D.
 

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dxjnorto said:
SuperActive, I'm glad you don't have to do those things, as I know sometimes it can be difficult to opt out of procedures that are considered a part of your job. I still think that on a moral basis, you don't have to do things that are against your principles. Cutting infants with no medical indication would definitely be one of those things for me.

As for selling the tissue, I wonder if baseball can provide more information? Somehow the tissue gets from the hospital to various entities that process it.

In a Men's Health article [Jenkins, M. (1998, July/August). Separated at birth. Men’s Health, 130-135, 163.] they said that the foreskin would fetch about $40 at the time. As you might imagine, baby foreskins make excellent seed culture for skin graft products, as baseball has said, as well as for very expensive skin care products. One brand name is TNS recovery complex. It's engineered from human foreskin said a Dr. Wexler when she appeared on Oprah last year to tout the product.

This adds a further element of moral confusion to the U.S. practice of still nearly routine infant circumcision. In another thread baseball has explained that U.S. parents are told, “you have a baby boy, you have a very important decision to make.” If that isn't marketing, I don't know what is.

“...the practice of routine circumcision rests on the absurd premise that the only mammal in creation born in the condition that requires immediate surgical correction is the human male.” Thomas Szasz, M.D.

i dont know much about how the foreskin is processed from the hospital. Also the vast majority is not utilized anyways. It isnt at my hospital but somewhere and somehow it is.....
Circumcision is not marketed. You're changing my words (again).....Do you know how much stuff needs to be spelled out for new parents? Childbirth is natural, being a parent is not. After the birth a multitude of topics are discussed with the parents. Breast feeding vs bottle, circumcision, vaccinations, follow-up visits, well-baby exams, accident prevention, abuse prevention, how to baby proof homes, pets, pacifiers, colic, and many more. According to your statement we market circumcision as often as we market abuse :rolleyes:
 

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Obviously there is a market for many of the things you mention. None require gratuitous amputation. None are as lucrative as genital cutting. Ergo: marketing
 

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baseball99 said:
Also, just to note, your term of routine infant circumcision is out of date. It's not routine but it does happen often. there is a difference
I don't like the term either but that's what AAP calls it so I guess we're stuck with it. I'd prefer Ritual Infant Circumcision.
 

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baseball99 said:
I can honestly say that i would treat a young child conservatively first ...
Well, there's something I agree with. So, baseball99 what are your recommended conservative treatments for phimosis? And phimosis with an infection?
 

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dxjnorto said:
Obviously there is a market for many of the things you mention. None require gratuitous amputation. None are as lucrative as genital cutting. Ergo: marketing

i like how you think circumcision is so lucrative.....guaranteed keeping a patient for a day longer in the hospital is much more lucrative. youre letting your skepticism blind what really occurs. Everything is presented unbiased. I dont know how much more simple that sentence can be made. For heavens sake if i really wanted to abuse the system to make money i would give every child the RSV vaccine.....
 

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SteveHd said:
Well, there's something I agree with. So, baseball99 what are your recommended conservative treatments for phimosis? And phimosis with an infection?

those go along the same lines as how would you treat a myocardial infarction. How would you treat a stroke......how would you treat renal failure.....my recommended conservative treatments are first obtaining a urine analysis. If no signs of kidney damage then possibly just treat with abx. If any signs of renal infection, ultrasound and other diagnostic tests. Any signs of sepsis conservative treatment is discarded immediately.
 

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At last a voice of reason, thank you Baseball99.

Had an interesting discussion with a mother to be about circumcision today. She has been considering having her future child cut (presuming it is a boy). The lady is from Nigeria and will probably be returning to home in the future. Because of prejudice in the country against the uncircumcised, it is likely that he will be teased and even ostracised and bullied if he remains intact. She said that if she were staying in the UK she wouldn't bother but is considering it to protect her child. This may seem a bit extreme, but I think it illustrates that very little is black and white when making what are often complex decisions for parents.
 

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SuperActive said:
Had an interesting discussion with a mother to be about circumcision today. She has been considering having her future child cut (presuming it is a boy). The lady is from Nigeria and will probably be returning to home in the future. Because of prejudice in the country against the uncircumcised, it is likely that he will be teased and even ostracised and bullied if he remains intact. She said that if she were staying in the UK she wouldn't bother but is considering it to protect her child. This may seem a bit extreme, but I think it illustrates that very little is black and white when making what are often complex decisions for parents.
So you tried to make a case for a neonatal or infant circumcision on a yet-to-be-born child. Thank you for being honest. Thank you for helping the cause of Intactivism. You very nicely clarified why most circumcisions of babies are done: social. Heaven forbid that the boy might be "teased" or "ostracized" or "bullied" for being intact. Based on my own childhood experience of being teased and ridiculed for having a "big nose," I think boy will do just fine. I really do. His penis will be much easier to hide than my nose.