Quebecois Seccessionist Movement Dead?

[2322]

I thought there were minor secessionist movements in Manitoba and Saskatchewan and the maritimes as well? It was my understanding The Plains wanted to dump everyone else and the maritimes wanted to join the US. That would leave Ontario, Alberta, BC, and the territories as Canada.

I really hope that doesn't happen but as has already been observed, it may just be a matter of time before North America is a virtual EU.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

No, despite what the PQ would have Quebecers believing, walking away from the debt is not that simple.

I really don't think they will.
But if they do, they will never have walked away from a debt contractually assumed by the Province (now Republic, I assume) of Quebec.
It's like if you, rob, took out a loan with Fritz, but only your name was on the loan forms.
If Fritz stiffs you, Fritz has an issue with you ... but probably not with the bailiff.
I have read articles where a number of legal and financial experts (not Quebecois) see real potential strengths in the Quebec position.
Fair? No.
Anyway, I don't think it'll come to that. What I think they'll do is use the debt as leverage on other issues.
But who knows?

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

I thought there were minor secessionist movements in Manitoba and Saskatchewan and the maritimes as well? It was my understanding The Plains wanted to dump everyone else and the maritimes wanted to join the US. That would leave Ontario, Alberta, BC, and the territories as Canada.

There all very minor, jason.
The strongest of them was in Alberta, but I have never met an Albertan secessionist.
Sometimes one hears of an idea that BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba could make their own country, but these are just wisps in the wind.
You'll never see polls that indicate any level of support for secession, outside of Quebec.

 

[str82fcuk]

I thought there were minor secessionist movements in Manitoba and Saskatchewan and the maritimes as well? It was my understanding The Plains wanted to dump everyone else and the maritimes wanted to join the US. That would leave Ontario, Alberta, BC, and the territories as Canada.

I really hope that doesn't happen but as has already been observed, it may just be a matter of time before North America is a virtual EU.

like senor said, support for secession/soverignty/deconfederation/ whatever has only about one thousandth as much support outside of quebec as it does in quebec ...

here in quebec support has shifted toward more autonomy for now but that is just until things heat up again

I cant believe though that I am actually talking about that here ... maybe because I spend most of my life en francais I hear about this all the f...ing time ...

personally I wouldnt be opposed to sovereignty if it wasn't accompanied by nationalism (I dislike all forms of nationalism)

but actually I had my fill of politics in another country a long time ago so I tend to try to avoid this terribly touchy subject (except here at lpsg I let it all hang out)

anyway we will soon have the North American Union with three official languages and then I will move to new york yeah :biggrin1:

 

[2322]

like senor said, support for secession/soverignty/deconfederation/ whatever has only about one thousandth as much support outside of quebec as it does in quebec ...

here in quebec support has shifted toward more autonomy for now but that is just until things heat up again

I cant believe though that I am actually talking about that here ... maybe because I spend most of my life en francais I hear about this all the f...ing time ...

personally I wouldnt be opposed to sovereignty if it wasn't accompanied by nationalism (I dislike all forms of nationalism)

but actually I had my fill of politics in another country a long time ago so I tend to try to avoid this terribly touchy subject (except here at lpsg I let it all hang out)

anyway we will soon have the North American Union with three official languages and then I will move to new york yeah :biggrin1:

LPSG is surprising in that so many topics have nothing to do with the stated topic of the website.

New York, eh? I hope to welcome you!:smile:

 

[kalipygian]

I thought there were minor secessionist movements in Manitoba and Saskatchewan and the maritimes as well? It was my understanding The Plains wanted to dump everyone else and the maritimes wanted to join the US. That would leave Ontario, Alberta, BC, and the territories as Canada.

I really hope that doesn't happen but as has already been observed, it may just be a matter of time before North America is a virtual EU.

St. Pierre et Miquelon are already part of the original EU.

 

[rob_just_rob]

I really don't think they will.
But if they do, they will never have walked away from a debt contractually assumed by the Province (now Republic, I assume) of Quebec.
It's like if you, rob, took out a loan with Fritz, but only your name was on the loan forms.
If Fritz stiffs you, Fritz has an issue with you ... but probably not with the bailiff.
I have read articles where a number of legal and financial experts (not Quebecois) see real potential strengths in the Quebec position.
Fair? No.
Anyway, I don't think it'll come to that. What I think they'll do is use the debt as leverage on other issues.
But who knows?

The difficulty with one province defaulting on its share of the national debt as it walks out the door is that the national debt is owed, in some significant part, to ourselves.

The obvious thing to do in such a case is to not repay the part of the debt that is held by companies/individuals with a Quebec address. Quebec would also be walking away from it's share of the EI surplus in such a situation. And so on.

It's also a fairly safe bet that the James Bay basin and the hydroelectric assets therein would have to be severed from Quebec, in partial satisfaction of their debt obligation.

 

[earllogjam]

Seriously, earl ... why don't you sketch out your red neck roots a bit?
You do look a tad red neck ... but that's a good thing.
You know, verrrrry maskuleen and all ...
Anyhoo, I'm curious.
Seriously.

Thank you (I think).

Maw Logjam is actually one of you, Canadian from BC and Paw Logjam is from Montana via Arkansas. So you see we are practically cousins.
Funny thing about rednecks is that when they move to civilization they still remain rednecks but have kids who like sugar pies.

 

[D_Hairy Reed]

May I be a bit provocative?

You wrote...

It would also be the end of a beautiful idea ... that two peoples, each with great histories behind them, could come together and form a larger whole, with each keeping virtually all of its specificity. The world needs these examples, and Canada, for a long time, has been one.

What great history are you referring to??

I sincerely hope my question doesn't offend you, because it is NOT intended to and because I have lived in Canada for 1.5 yrs, including Quebec, Alberta and BC. I love the country for its natural beauty, the simpleness/unpretentiousness of its inhabitants and certainly lack of hang-ups (esp when compared to your neighbours). In fact, I'd rate Canada among my top 5 favourite countries, and I have visited many.

But - history - just doesn't come to my mind when I think of the two North American countries. What does come to my mind is the ethnic cleansing and land appropriation from the First Nations of Canada. I'd be ashamed to call that a historical achievement - but in terms of contribution to world civilisation, could you name me some great achievements in Canadian history? It may well be that I have a knowledge gap, which I'd like to close.

If that beautiful idea cannot work in Canada, then where can it work?

That beautiful idea - I agree - of a country comprising multiple nations does work well in a few different places around the world, e.g. the United Kingdom (English, Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish living in one country), China and India. Obviously, all of these countries have significantly shaped world civilisation and history and it may be unfair to compare new nations such as Canada or the US to those cultural heavy-weights.... what do others think?

 

[2322]

I love the country for its natural beauty, the simpleness/unpretentiousness of its inhabitants and certainly lack of hang-ups (esp when compared to your neighbours).

I agree! Those Russians are just the most repressed people out there save for the Danes who are even worse! Poor Canada, a brewery amongst a bunch of Carrie Nations.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

St. Pierre et Miquelon are already part of the original EU.

As part of France, no?

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

The difficulty with one province defaulting on its share of the national debt as it walks out the door is that the national debt is owed, in some significant part, to ourselves.

The obvious thing to do in such a case is to not repay the part of the debt that is held by companies/individuals with a Quebec address. Quebec would also be walking away from it's share of the EI surplus in such a situation. And so on.

It's also a fairly safe bet that the James Bay basin and the hydroelectric assets therein would have to be severed from Quebec, in partial satisfaction of their debt obligation.

There would be many things to adjudicate, obviously.
If Canada (or The Rest of Canada, referring to what would remain if Quebec left) owed money to individuals or institutions in Quebec, they would still owe the money even if the Quebec government refused to accept a part of the national debt.
The Canadian government could be sued for default if it refused to pay. I don't imagine the Canadian courts would see default on a debt between the two levels of government, relevant in such a case.
The share of the EI surplus would be a pittance by comparison.
Severing the James Bay basin? By whose declaration?
The Cree and the Inuit seem to want to stay in Canada, true enough.
But the Quebec government has control over land right to the edge of long-established geographic borders.
As Parizeau once said, the day after a declaration of independence by Quebec, it would be too late for the Rest of Canada to do anything.
You'll say that it's not really all that simple, and you're probably right.
I'm not saying any of this would happen.
I wouldn't be surprised if a divorce, if it happens, turned out to be amicable.
But Quebec would have very strong cards if they wished to play rough.
Stronger than we, in the Rest of Canada, like to think.

 

[2322]

Oui! St. Pierre and Miquelon are external departments of France, fly the French flag, and exist nearly entirely on the Euro welfare sent to them from France. They are the only European colonies within North America (unless you count Bermuda).

At one time the islands were valuable for French fishing rights off the Grand Banks and may still be valuable depending upon petroleum reserves in the surrounding area.

Otherwise they're useless.

The most interesting part of their history was during WWII. The islands pledged allegiance to Vichy France and that caused more than a little trepidation in Canada and the United States as the islands could then be used by the Germans for supplying and fortifying U-boats or even be a staging point of German invasion (a serious concern in the early years) of Canada.

General de Gaulle was not unaware of this and actually mounted an invasion of the islands with free French naval forces backed by the US and the UK. As all good French governments do, the governor surrendered (even if it was to their own forces:34.

The people do speak French and are fervently French. They are not merely Canadians with another passport.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Poor Canada, a brewery amongst a bunch of Carrie Nations.

Not bad, Jason, not bad at all. A multi-level pun! Whew!

The people [of St. Pierre and Miquelon] do speak French and are fervently French. They are not merely Canadians with another passport.

True enough. They really are French. And stepping onto their shores really is to step into another country. (Or so I'm told ... haven't ever been there, though I'm very curious.)

 

[Drifterwood]

Would Rupert's lnd be given back the the 1912 Boundaries extension act be rescinded?

I ask because Quebec was made a lot bigger than the original New France colony, by the Canadians and British.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

What great history are you referring to??

I am talking about their entire history, even going back to their respective motherlands.

But - history - just doesn't come to my mind when I think of the two North American countries. What does come to my mind is the ethnic cleansing and land appropriation from the First Nations of Canada. I'd be ashamed to call that a historical achievement...

The state of the aboriginal people is the great shame of Canada.
You know, we really didn't have an ethnic cleansing comparable to what happened in the U.S.
However, no one calls what happened to the aboriginal people, an achievement of any kind.
And resolution of the problems, particularly land claims settlements, but also equalization of educational and health care levels, is on the agenda of all political parties. Progress, however, is slow.

... in terms of contribution to world civilisation, could you name me some great achievements in Canadian history?

The existence of a union between two great cultural and linguistic groups over quite a long period of time.

That beautiful idea - I agree - of a country comprising multiple nations does work well in a few different places around the world, e.g. the United Kingdom (English, Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish living in one country), China and India.

The U.K., China, and India are not similar cases, imo.
In the U.K., the English, Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish all speak English and are part of a homogenous cultural stew. What separates is mostly the narcissism of small differences. (There may be very small pockets of Gaelic speakers, but they are insignificant.)
In China, much of the 'unity' has been achieved in a very heavy-handed fashion, some of it, especially in Tibet, excoriated by the world.
India is quite the opposite of the Canadian case ... an amalgamation of an incredible number of cultural and linguistic groups. But historically, that has proven relatively easy to maintain. It's when you have two large groups, each dominant on particular pieces of geography, that the jalopy gets creaky. Belgium is an obvious current example ... and alas, so has Canada been, though the end result of that, I'm going to say gingerly, promises to be happier than Belgium's case.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Would Rupert's lnd be given back the the 1912 Boundaries extension act be rescinded?

I ask because Quebec was made a lot bigger than the original New France colony, by the Canadians and British.

That's a great question.
Some people say Quebec, in a post-separation world, would retain only a small patch of land along the St. Lawrence River, its historic heartland.
Quebec was given a great deal of land, on the assumption that it would remain part of Canada.
Fair though that seems in some ways, I wouldn't personally bet on it.

 

[Drifterwood]

Are the citizens who live in the extended territories as seperatist as those in the original heartland?

Is there separatism within seperatism?

I always feel uncomfortable when urban majorities push their democratic weight around at the expense of us rural people.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Are the citizens who live in the extended territories as seperatist as those in the original heartland?

Is there separatism within separatism?

I always feel uncomfortable when urban majorities push their democratic weight around at the expense of us rural people.

The French-speaking parts of Quebec all tend to be somewhat secessionist, both in urban and rural regions.
The separatism heartland is, or used to be, in the St. Jean region, which is quite rural. It was the only part of Quebec that voted Oui in the 1980 referendum, which saw a roughly 79/21 percent breakdown between those who wished to remain in Canada and those who wanted to ...
Well, what, exactly?
The question was so convoluted that it was hard to say what it meant.
But certainly the secessionists were in that vastly smaller group.
In the Outaouais, that pocket of Quebec near the Capital Region, just across from Ottawa, French people are more supportive of the Canadian idea.
Gaspe used to be more federalist as well, but I think that has changed.

 

[rob_just_rob]

There would be many things to adjudicate, obviously.
If Canada (or The Rest of Canada, referring to what would remain if Quebec left) owed money to individuals or institutions in Quebec, they would still owe the money even if the Quebec government refused to accept a part of the national debt.

So? Pass a law absolving ROC from an obligation to pay debts owed to Quebecers. It wouldn't be the first time such a thing has been done.

The Canadian government could be sued for default if it refused to pay.

See above. Sue away. The right of action wouldn't exist in Canadian courts.

I don't imagine the Canadian courts would see default on a debt between the two levels of government, relevant in such a case.

See above.

The share of the EI surplus would be a pittance by comparison.

True. But don't think an independent Quebec won't ask for it.

Severing the James Bay basin? By whose declaration?

The Cree and the Inuit seem to want to stay in Canada, true enough.
But the Quebec government has control over land right to the edge of long-established geographic borders.

By whose declaration? You could say that about Canada as a whole. If Canada is divisible, Quebec is divisible.

If Quebec can vote to leave Canada, the First Nations people living in what is now Quebec can vote to leave Quebec.

As Parizeau once said, the day after a declaration of independence by Quebec, it would be too late for the Rest of Canada to do anything.

Parizeau was a racist and a drunk. And for someone who called himself an economist, he didn't apparently understand the economic effects of partition.

But Quebec would have very strong cards if they wished to play rough.
Stronger than we, in the Rest of Canada, like to think.

Quebec has evidently underestimated how pissed off the rest of us will be with them, should separation come to pass.