Question about circumcision

mandoman

Cherished Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Posts
3,454
Media
0
Likes
323
Points
148
Location
MA
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
Not even close to true. Circumcision was in full swing well before Dr. Spock.
The military was doing it, as a pre-emptive measure, during WWI, when guys could expect to be in the trenches, and could not bathe. Those soldiers came home, and had their kids circumcised at birth, because they were told it was cleaner, would prevent disease, and that babies' nervous systems were not developed at birth, so they felt no pain. You know, all the standard lies the medical community has previously hawked.
The American influence can be seen in South Korea's penchant for non-medical non-religious circumcisions. It was the British influence, during their relatively brief circumcision period, which influenced Australia and New Zealand, and to a large part, Canada.
I don't think a whole lot of Europeans left their kids with foreskins, to Hitler-proof them. I think they left their kids with foreskins, because their country never bought into the whole thing in the first place.
 

JTalbain

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2005
Posts
1,786
Media
0
Likes
14
Points
258
Age
34
I don't think a whole lot of Europeans left their kids with foreskins, to Hitler-proof them. I think they left their kids with foreskins, because their country never bought into the whole thing in the first place.
I think Britain did a fair bit of circumcising for awhile, but when evidence began to make itself known that circumcision was harmful, they stopped. In fact, I believe the UK makes underwear designed to help circumcised men remain sensitive now.
 

big_tits4big_dicks

Experimental Member
Joined
May 28, 2010
Posts
445
Media
0
Likes
5
Points
51
Location
L.A, city of madness,
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Female
Second, Much of North America was populated by Puritans. It's so obvious here that it's kind of a joke, but Puritan sexual values (sex is sinful and so is everything that's to do with sex) are still very much alive, especially in the US. You can show someone getting shot in the head on TV, but accidentally expose a woman's breast and it's a national outrage south of the border.

Having said that, there are lots of Americans who think that's as ridiculous as I do, but this thread is kind of about sweeping generalisations.


Yep, you hit it on the head. Cutting off parts of your genitals, male or female, is something religious minds thought up. They are responsible for a lot of deplorable, inhumane actions. Genital cutting is about power, I believe. Just like female circumcision, it is to have the power of this woman's body. I have spoken with many mothers about their sons and why they cut them. it was because they wanted to, there was no good reason, typically. POWER. They will not come out and say that, they know how to tip toe around things you can't say. But really, these women seemed to like having control over their kids genitals. And that fucking horrifies me. It's your dick, do what you like. But there needs to be an age restriction for cosmetic surgery such as this, especially when it DOES have health benefits to keeping it.

*Just add the usual disclaimer to this, it's my thoughts and opinions obviously not fact, blah, blah, blah.
 
S

SirConcis

Guest
In a previous post, I used Dr Spock's book as an example. I did not wish to state that he started the circumcision trend. By the time he wrote his books, circumcision was well enough on its way to being universal in the USA that he recommended to get all sons done to prevent them from being teased because they were different.

However, there have been many baby books written before Spock which advised mothers to get sons cut because it was better, eliminated cancer etc etc etc.

Québec is an interesting example. Anglophones adopted circumcision to a greater degree than francophones. One possible reason is that they read english language baby books from the USA, whereas many francophones would have read french language baby books from France. (although Spock's book was available in french if I remember correctly). Obviously, the doctor's recommendations come into play here.

And when the Québec government decided to stop paying for baby circs around 1980, the rate dropped dramatically. The way I see it, circumcision was like that free desert at the restaurant. If it is included in the meal, you accept it. But if you have to pay for it separately, you look at your waist and wallet and don't automatically order desert.

Britain may have had seeds of circumcision, but it is the USA that made it widespread in other english speaking countries. Canada and Australia's circ rates continued to climb through the 1960s, some 15 years after the UK had abandonned it. And in the 1960s, circumcision was already forgotten in the UK, and many older men born well before the 1960s had never heard of circumcision being widespread in the UK. So the many stories of circumcision having been widespread in UK have to be talen with a grain of salt.
 

darkbond007

Expert Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Posts
1,245
Media
54
Likes
118
Points
308
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
This is actually part of the reason why I'm against circumcision of people who can't consent to it. An individual should be permitted to make the decision for themselves, as they are the absolute best people to decide whether or not their foreskin contributes meaningfully to their sexual pleasure. There are many intact men that say they love their foreskins, it is their favorite part, and they can't imagine sex/masturbation without it. If they are wired so they're foreskin is more necessary for sexual pleasure, how would they have been affected by its removal?

I don't think it has any pre-wiring connotations to it. You have men who are circumcised as an adult that enjoy sex more. You have men who restore who enjoy sex more. I think it is what you identify with.

Well, let me set the record straight by saying I don't think that every circumcised penis is automatically inadequete. In fact, I have agreed that in many cases, it may be a matter of preference. If people are happy with their own circumcised penis, I encourage them to be happy with their own circumcised penis. However, most of the reasons given boil down to "I think it is more appealing that way", a valid stance, but not a reason to pursue the operation for anyone else. With that in mind, I don't think the choice should be stripped from an individual before they are old enough to make it for themselves. The effects of circumcision, given that there are people on both extremes, can be said to be uncertain at best in regards to sexual sensitivity. In return, for the risk that they could lose a great deal, what is the child being subjected to the procedure receiving? What is our justification for denying them so personal a choice? If we are left without any reasons for the child's well-being, what reasons are left besides our own vanity?

Again, I think parents do believe they are doing it for the well being of the child. If I am a circumcised man that was RICed and I grew up and enjoyed my circumcised penis then my assumption is my son will as well. Sure it may be messed up to some but its the same with many things, I grew up liking a certain type of food based on my exposure to it, without being exposed then I have no context. Of course there are exceptions to this but everyone will take into account those exceptions differently.

We may not see eye to eye on most to do with circumcision, but I agree with you 100% here. If people look at the details they might see circumcision is unnecessary, but if the doctor recommends it and the procedure is free to them...

I think that honestly this would be a valid fix, not perfect but reasonable. Just declare that non-medical circumcision can't be covered by insurance as a medical procedure. See how tightly people cling to their "parental rights" when they have to shell out the 300-400 dollars cost for a procedure the doctor tells them their baby doesn't need.

We can agree here. I guess the difference for me is that I would shelve out the money. But I'm probably 1 out of 10 that would do that. And clearly that is where the worldwide percentages are.

Wow we agreed on something...Lets throw a party!!!
 

Sapien

Experimental Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2009
Posts
416
Media
65
Likes
22
Points
103
Location
Canada
Gender
Male
I don't think it has any pre-wiring connotations to it. You have men who are circumcised as an adult that enjoy sex more. You have men who restore who enjoy sex more. I think it is what you identify with.
Th point is how does one know in advance what the newborn will prefer.

Again, I think parents do believe they are doing it for the well being of the child. If I am a circumcised man that was RICed and I grew up and enjoyed my circumcised penis then my assumption is my son will as well. Sure it may be messed up to some but its the same with many things, I grew up liking a certain type of food based on my exposure to it, without being exposed then I have no context. Of course there are exceptions to this but everyone will take into account those exceptions differently.
Absolutely agree that parents "believe" they are doing for the well being of the child and that circumcised fathers are more likely to circumcise their sons. However, this is not necessarily because they like being circumcised. It is more that they don't know the difference and choose conformance.

Now that we know the the foreskin is functional erogenous tissue we also now know it is wrong to practice routine infant circumcision. That is why it is no longer covered in Canada and Australia and it is actually banned in public hospitals in Australia. In Australia, the hospitals provide new parents with brochures on circumcision to educate them why it shouldn't be done including that it is a human rights issue.

Ignorance does not make it right!
 

arktrucker

Sexy Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2005
Posts
1,098
Media
1
Likes
91
Points
268
Sexuality
69% Gay, 31% Straight
Gender
Male
There is a huge medical propaganda machine in the US. They talk out of both sides of their mouths.
The circumcised guys typically have a huge investment emotionally, like "it must not be useless, otherwise why would my parents have done it", not understanding all the effort the medical community has put into the fake studies, and the rationalizations to keep doing it, so they can continue to make money at it. The AMA and AAP say that it is not necessary medically, and that people should be educated, so they can make a good choice. Then, they make no effort whatsoever to either educate the people on the benefits of having a foreskin, or show them studies that both circumcised and uncircumcised men get the exact same diseases, at the exact same rates...or discourage the doctors from violating their Hippocratic Oath, "first, do no harm". They justify it with, well, it will bring the cancer rate down, and lessen their chance of getting HIV, of which neither is actually true. It's a 250+ million dollar a year industry, at least that is what the AMA was willing to admit a few years ago.
It sounds cynical, but I swear, it is true.
Why else would the US be the only country where a majority of the guys have had non-religious circumcisions?
Fortunately, whenever Europeans share their views, as you just did, it causes somebody in America to question this cycle. The rate is dropping very quickly, mostly because of the internet. Another reason is that many people have now played with an uncut cock, and realized they are not the hygiene horror show they were made out to be, they are actually fun.

One thing about circumcision in the US, insurance companies pay for it. As soon as they stop paying for circumcisions, you'll never see them here again.

The old argument about its not being clean is just absurd. If parents teach their daughters to use soap and water to keep their lady bits clean then they can teach little boys to retract the foreskin and keep their penises clean as well.
 

JTalbain

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2005
Posts
1,786
Media
0
Likes
14
Points
258
Age
34
I don't think it has any pre-wiring connotations to it. You have men who are circumcised as an adult that enjoy sex more. You have men who restore who enjoy sex more. I think it is what you identify with.

Again, I think parents do believe they are doing it for the well being of the child. If I am a circumcised man that was RICed and I grew up and enjoyed my circumcised penis then my assumption is my son will as well. Sure it may be messed up to some but its the same with many things, I grew up liking a certain type of food based on my exposure to it, without being exposed then I have no context. Of course there are exceptions to this but everyone will take into account those exceptions differently.
We can actually somewhat agree here as well, people's preferences are based off of their experiences, and they will tend to direct their child in the same paths they took. However, whereas you were cut as an adult, by your choice, and enjoyed yourself more after, most adults were cut as infants themselves. It isn't truly a preference if they don't know the difference. If they were never exposed to both sides, and thus don't actually know any other way, how can they be thought to be making a thoughtful, calculated choice for the benefit of their child? It's this lack of rational basis for the choice that leads people to say that the choice is made for the parent's benefit rather than the child's, as a way for them to psychologically justify their own circumcisions.
We can agree here. I guess the difference for me is that I would shelve out the money. But I'm probably 1 out of 10 that would do that. And clearly that is where the worldwide percentages are.

Wow we agreed on something...Lets throw a party!!!
I'll bring the soda if you bring the pizza. :biggrin1:
 

darkbond007

Expert Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Posts
1,245
Media
54
Likes
118
Points
308
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Absolutely agree that parents "believe" they are doing for the well being of the child and that circumcised fathers are more likely to circumcise their sons. However, this is not necessarily because they like being circumcised. It is more that they don't know the difference and choose conformance.

I don't believe that is a judgment you can pass on everyone.

We can actually somewhat agree here as well, people's preferences are based off of their experiences, and they will tend to direct their child in the same paths they took. However, whereas you were cut as an adult, by your choice, and enjoyed yourself more after, most adults were cut as infants themselves. It isn't truly a preference if they don't know the difference. If they were never exposed to both sides, and thus don't actually know any other way, how can they be thought to be making a thoughtful, calculated choice for the benefit of their child? It's this lack of rational basis for the choice that leads people to say that the choice is made for the parent's benefit rather than the child's, as a way for them to psychologically justify their own circumcisions.

I dont think they are trying to justify their own circumcisions. I think they truly feel it is the better form of a penis. Whether that is true or not is left up to debate. It actually stems from just about any choice a parent makes for a child.
 

mandoman

Cherished Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Posts
3,454
Media
0
Likes
323
Points
148
Location
MA
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
I disagree here.

The average man regardless of circ status can say what parts of them are sensitive. Using your analogy one would assume that the other knows how it feels to be both and thats not a correct assumption. You make the foreskin out to be the be all and end all to sexual response; unfortunately it is not.

Additionally, America is HARDLY a country where the rate of circumcision is categorically high, Muslim and Jewish areas/countries are all over, I wonder why the question was not posed in this manner.



I would just like to say that I don't think it's worthless. However at the same time I dont feel it is the golden fleece that connects sexual response to sexual pleasure/satisfaction.


I'm not disputing anything you say here. On you, your foreskin was not the be all and end all of sexual response. On me, the inner foreskin and frenulum are the most sensitive parts, by far. The glans comes in a distant third...closer to that sensitive spot at the bottom and rear of my scrotum.
 

mandoman

Cherished Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Posts
3,454
Media
0
Likes
323
Points
148
Location
MA
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
In a previous post, I used Dr Spock's book as an example. I did not wish to state that he started the circumcision trend. By the time he wrote his books, circumcision was well enough on its way to being universal in the USA that he recommended to get all sons done to prevent them from being teased because they were different.

However, there have been many baby books written before Spock which advised mothers to get sons cut because it was better, eliminated cancer etc etc etc.

Québec is an interesting example. Anglophones adopted circumcision to a greater degree than francophones. One possible reason is that they read english language baby books from the USA, whereas many francophones would have read french language baby books from France. (although Spock's book was available in french if I remember correctly). Obviously, the doctor's recommendations come into play here.

And when the Québec government decided to stop paying for baby circs around 1980, the rate dropped dramatically. The way I see it, circumcision was like that free desert at the restaurant. If it is included in the meal, you accept it. But if you have to pay for it separately, you look at your waist and wallet and don't automatically order desert.

Britain may have had seeds of circumcision, but it is the USA that made it widespread in other english speaking countries. Canada and Australia's circ rates continued to climb through the 1960s, some 15 years after the UK had abandonned it. And in the 1960s, circumcision was already forgotten in the UK, and many older men born well before the 1960s had never heard of circumcision being widespread in the UK. So the many stories of circumcision having been widespread in UK have to be talen with a grain of salt.

Dr. Spock did circumcise his sons. Towards the end of his career, he did a 180 degree about face on the subject of circumcision, and came out adamantly against it.
The books which pointed to foreskins as the cause of penile cancer or cervical cancer were \based on the best guesses at the time (1950s). They knew that Jewish women had a lower incidence of cervical cancer, and thought, without research, that circumcision was the cause. Now, we know that they have an immunity to types of the HPV virus in their DNA, and that circumcision status has nothing to do with it. Circumcised men get penile cancer.
 

mandoman

Cherished Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Posts
3,454
Media
0
Likes
323
Points
148
Location
MA
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
One thing about circumcision in the US, insurance companies pay for it. As soon as they stop paying for circumcisions, you'll never see them here again.

The old argument about its not being clean is just absurd. If parents teach their daughters to use soap and water to keep their lady bits clean then they can teach little boys to retract the foreskin and keep their penises clean as well.

Truer words were never spoken. The key is for Americans to get Medicaid to stop paying for it in their states.
 

Sapien

Experimental Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2009
Posts
416
Media
65
Likes
22
Points
103
Location
Canada
Gender
Male
I don't believe that is a judgment you can pass on everyone.

I agree, it is not a judgment that can be passed on to everyone, that is why I said "it is not necessarily.......". However, I think the the number of people in his category is significant though the numbers are decreasing now that information on this subject is more readily available. Hence, the decreasing infant circumcision rates.

I dont think they are trying to justify their own circumcisions. I think they truly feel it is the better form of a penis. Whether that is true or not is left up to debate. It actually stems from just about any choice a parent makes for a child.

Yes, they may genuinely believe that is a better form of the penis but this belief is intrinsically intertwined with the male psyche. The father's justification of his own circumcision may not be a conscious part of this decision making process but it is inevitable that it is a component of it. This is especially true when the father is not informed on the topic. There is plenty of evidence of this throughout the many threads on this debate on this website.

As the information in the benefits and function of the foreskin is being assimilated by the general public you see more and more circumcised fathers proudly stating that they left their sons intact. Education is key in making the justification component of the decision process a conscious one.
 

JTalbain

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2005
Posts
1,786
Media
0
Likes
14
Points
258
Age
34
I don't believe that is a judgment you can pass on everyone.
Not everyone, but since most men in the US who are circed were cut at birth it does apply to most people. As the status quo for a circumcised father choosing for his son, he question becomes something like "Do you want your son to be circumcised like you, or are you unhappy with your own circ job?"

I dont think they are trying to justify their own circumcisions. I think they truly feel it is the better form of a penis. Whether that is true or not is left up to debate. It actually stems from just about any choice a parent makes for a child.
If every person was making that choice rationally and fully informed I would have less of an issue with it. If they say, "Look, foreskin problems run in my family. I, my brothers, my dad, my uncles, and my grandfather have all needed to be circumcised for medical reasons at some point. I'd rather not have my son deal with that," then that's actually a very rational informed decision that almost everyone would agree with. In that particular case, it probably falls under the banner of preventive medicine.

However, people don't usually make this decision with that level of thought. I've talked to many parents who are expecting, and they had already decided to get their son circed just for aesthetic reasons (Because Daddy is). Like I said before, other parents would blanch at the risks they'd never been made aware of. I've only had a couple actually be interested in finding out more information about the procedure on their own. One even noted that the doctor asked for "consent" for circumcision by asking if the father was cut, assuming he would want the same for his child (lawsuit waiting to happen).

Parents research and debate about a great many decisions for their children, but circumcision is something many of them don't even give a second thought. If they asked their doctor, and he briefed them, honestly, on both sides it would go something like this:

"Circumcision is a procedure which removes the foreskin and all of its related structues from the person. Most of the reasons for which children have been circumcised in the past are false, so don't base your decision on that. It doesn't prevent STDs, and it isn't much harder to clean. While it does slightly change the rates of some diseases/conditions, in both directions, it doesn't outweigh the risks of the procedure enough for the American Medical Association or the American Academy of Pediatrics to recommend it routinely. The risks include excessive bleeding, partial penile amputation, and even death in rare cases, but the last two have never happened in our clinic. Some of the most recent research indicates that the foreskin does have mechanical functions in sex and masturbation. Other research indicates that circumcision can affect sexual pleasure, but that is still under debate. Also, some studies have indicated that it can affect the rates of HIV transmission, but it isn't a vaccine. Safe sex would still be required to prevent it. Do you have any questions?"

Clear, concise, covers about everything we've been talking about, alerts parents to the procedure affecting much more than they might have considered, and it is a much larger step to obtaining true informed consent from them. It lets them know the foreskin is more complicated than just a piece of skin, that there are risks, that it isn't medically recommended, and that research from both ends have highlighted possible good or bad effects of it, but they are still under investigation. This whole talk and the questions they may have after would take maybe 10-15 minutes, but I've never heard of a single person receiving a talk like this prior to the procedure. Making any permanent medical decision based on busted disproven science is not good for the child.