Question I need answered

[shybutwhy]

Phil ayesho: you're wrong. Our world has been around for billions of years. Our history goes back thousands of years. Now human history goes back 90,000 years. That's at least 80,000 years where we lived before currency. Money is something born out of laziness and the necessity to survive. If you can't hunt for food trade something else. Well my friend this all started in what we know as the dark ages. Government and money was created by the rich for the rich. Jut nowadays the average man thinks more labour means more money which in turn means power. Wrong! This way of thinking is what got us here in the first place. I dont want to offend you but for the sake of humanity and not the machine that controls us, don't be an android. Take the time to understand life, nature and your relation to the universe and you too will realize we are spiritual beings having a human experience. I feel we are still in the dark ages with the way the average man thinks. Right now conform you must so work. But don't ever believe that people need to live like this. Life is a cycle and surely we've met this point before (Atlantis, lumeria) and we will again. It's the ones who realize this that will survive long enough to make a difference. Everyone goes by their own clock which makes it possible for a 20 year old to have more wisdom than a 50 year old. True wisdom is innate. Anything else is an imitation of the word and should be considered "life experience" which is totallly different.

 

[mitchymo]

Labor less? No money?

Sound's like a magical place where reality does not operate.

Sorry... we can not get a better world thru less labor.
and, Sorry again, we can not have a civilized world without some medium of exchange for the labor we perform.

You want to live in a world where you make pants, and can not get a needed operation because the surgeon happens to have all the pants he needs for now?

These kind of utopian fantasies all have two things in common... the folks who come up with them utterly ignore human nature, and the folks who support them never think anything all the way thru.


We did not end up with money by accident. It Evolved as the most efficient means of getting work done, and distributing goods and services.

You want a better life? It ALWAYS involves MORE labor.

( try running a farm... if you think the agrarian life is better... its damn hard work )

Lots of thing have been tried... communism results in effort falling to the lowest survivable level. Without incentive, human beings don't perform. period.
Without hunger, you would not get off your ass and make a sandwich.

What we have, right now, is the BEST life has been for humanity, ever.
And we can make it better, still.

But what we have is the result of cultural evolution.
The solution that works best is the solution that thrives.

Don't tell me you are going to thunk up a better solution than that which was the result of ten thousand years of trial and error real world testing.

I think you are wrong as you think i am.

Money is not the product of any acceptance that all methods have been tried and failed leaving us with the best way of living. It is the product of selfishness, greed, laziness and power-craving.

If i need food and you need clothes we can trade but if i need food and you have clothes do you give me the food anyway because i need it or do you insist i give you something else?
Negative human traits propel the existence of money and so sticky is it that nobody can come up with a better way because we are so globally linked. It would take a huge disaster to eliminate the need for money before we could change. What use is money when everyone is fighting for survival?

We are a developed people now, we have more conscience, we have more technology, we have computors. We have the ability to bring about a change which would have to be very gradual using technology to do most of our labour. If it was'nt already in progress then the majority of people would not be working in the service industry instead of agriculture like our ancestors.

With money in our lives we are coming to a snag. What do we do to earn a living when machines are replacing our jobs? We cannot afford to lose our jobs to machines so we end up slowing our development. We even compensate by creating new jobs and 'changing' our moral attitude to accomodate them. Think about the number of people that work legally in the sex industry and how they contribute to the economy, if they were not legally allowed to do so then unemployment rates would be higher.

Where do we work when our traditional jobs are replaced by technological advance? We predominantly worked in agriculture until machines replaced the need for so many so we moved into manufacturing, again machines have replaced the majority and we mostly work in the service industry. What happens when machines take them jobs?

Eventually the realisation will come that people will need to be given free food and free shelter becuase the basics will be about the only thing we will be able to afford in the future. What use is there in creating music or films or holding sporting events when people cannot afford it?

We are not working like our ancestors did Phil, we do not work because we need food (look at how much supermarkets chuck away each day) we are not working to build shelter (only to pay rent and tax on them) instead the only reason we are working is for money itself to buy things which we want not what we need. The sad fact is that many people still cannot afford the things they want because they only earn enough to cover their bills and their food. If the shit hits the fan and people stop spending because they can longer afford anything other than the basics then the economy crumbles and we all suffer from poverty.

The Zeitgeist movement does not suggest to have all the solutions and recognises a change would be slow but it has very real ideas that can improve society. Free basic necessities, Less labour, more equality, less crime.

Anyone who has negative traits such as selfishness, greed, or megalomania will curl their toes at the zeitgeist ideology for obvious reasons.

The only reason we work is for money because that is the status quo not because it is the best way of living. The social degradation that exists in our societies is as a result of living with money. Proof i give you of that is that when a customer is rude or disrespectful to me as an employee i have to bite my tongue or risk losing my job. It is socially irresponsible to allow people to get away with showing no respect simply so that the company you work for can keep their custom.

Money is the root of (almost) all evil, and i believe that.

 

[shybutwhy]

Mitchymo, you're an intelligent dude this I'm sure of. Money however isn't the root of all evil. Evil just like the forces of good is very real in this age of koli yuga. Do you really think it would let the fate of the world ride on a piece of paper? Desire is the root of all evil. From this is born selfishness, greed and inevitably, corruption. Remember if ever paper money fell through the powers that be would turn to anyone who has enough gold to restart the system. So it gets a lot deeper. The problems are within us, and the things we give value to. Only in this world can a hunk of shiny metal be worth more than your dignity.

 

[mitchymo]

Mitchymo, you're an intelligent dude this I'm sure of. Money however isn't the root of all evil. Evil just like the forces of good is very real in this age of koli yuga. Do you really think it would let the fate of the world ride on a piece of paper? Desire is the root of all evil. From this is born selfishness, greed and inevitably, corruption. Remember if ever paper money fell through the powers that be would turn to anyone who has enough gold to restart the system. So it gets a lot deeper. The problems are within us, and the things we give value to. Only in this world can a hunk of shiny metal be worth more than your dignity.

Well this is why we should be trying to create a world where people are free and happy right.

We need our governments to be responsible for ensuring that we produce a sufficient and sustainable food sources to take away any threat of starvation. Ensure that everybody has a home of their own for shelter. Allow people to work less for the same wage or less wage but free housing so that they have time to study for a dream job or just to have fun/spend quality time with family.

We are all just slaves to a system that will break eventually.

 

[Jason]

"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil."

Money isn't the problem. Indeed money is a necessary tool. It has taken us away from the limitations of hunter gathering and a barter economy and made many of the good things of our world possible. The problem comes when people start loving the stuff. Mitchymo is quite right that we need the requisites of food and shelter and the life-affirming provision of leisure time. Money should be the oil that enables this to happen.

As we move to a new society we have to libearte the positive functions of the tool which is money while getting away from the negatives. The old mantra of redistribution is largely bankrupt - how many centuries of failure do we need to convince us that this isn't going to work? Rather we need millions of individuals to change the way they are using money. Here are some examples:

* The festive spend on crap stuff. It is indecent! In the developed world we spend money we often haven't got on buying presents that no-one wants. We need to change ourselves.
* The willingness to spend on life damaging products. Tobacco is a simple example. We all know it causes terrible problems, yet people still buy.
* Lifestyles which are directed by fad and fashion so that we throw out serviceable stuff because it is old fashioned.
* Tax spent on silly projects no-one wants. Select your favorite stupid expenditure.
* Tax spent on illegal wars, eg UK in Iraq.
* Governments in effect saving in the good times (as Norway did) so there is money when recession comes. We have to get away from the idea of silly money based on debt.

We need to be sustainable, and part of this is that there is a limit on the population the world can support. The UK is now talking of a target of maximmum 70m.

The changes need to be made by us as individuals and by the politicians we vote for. In the internet age with ever better communication there is hope that we will start to get these things right. But the starting point is every one of us as individuals getting it right.

 

[Rikter8]

We are all just slaves to a system that will break eventually.

Eventually?

Babe. It's broke. It's been broke. It's just a Free for all now.

People with money have the power. People without the money will be just that. Poor.

There are so many people in 2010 that are going to loose their homes to forclosure - that the homeless population is going to burst.

Everybody's loading up on ammo over here just to be able to protect the little they have left - their lives.

 

[Jason]

Just noticed Rikter8's tag line:

"Pro Firearms:
"When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away." - Phillip Van Cleave (October 30, 2007)"

Sometimes it is better to die. Guns are not the solution.

 

[Rikter8]

???? Wha????

That's a whole nother topic...

 

[shybutwhy]

As long as money is around there will alway be those who don't have it. We weren't made to make money. That isn't in our nature. Greed isn't in our nature. We are made to serve a purpose which in the end is to protect ourselves and those we love. Remember creation, protection and destruction. The people that think money is necessary are detrimental to our survival as a species. Believe me when I say the last war we fight will be between the old world thinkers, and those trying to usher in the golden age. This is what I believe will happen in 2012. The people versus the machine.