Questions about the UK

dong20

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LINittanyLion said:
26 + 6 = 1

IIRC, doesn't Scotland have approval for their own Parliament as well, not just NI? Which by the way, the crown suspended:mad:

Yes Scotland has long had it's own Parliament which first met in 1999. It's relatively powerful, certainly compared to the Welsh Assembly but still defers to Westminster on key issues such as Defence and Foreign Policy. The suspension of the NI assembly is only a small part of the ongoing comical trainwreck that is NI politics right now.
 

B_Stronzo

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ORCABOMBER said:
I'd argue that "British"ness is a broader term, but it is most often chirped by English who don't really want to be...I could use the excuse I'm a 2nd Gen colonial though. :p

During my schooling in England I never heard one person I knew (several I still know) who were native to England call themselves anything but "English".

More recently I've met several Englishmen online who refer to themselves as "Brits" though.

From my own experience only, "British" seems like a broader and more inclusive term which refers more to a cultural phenomenon rather than one based in national origin. Things may be changing though so I'm interested to read the take of our posters from England.

**an odd aside and slight hijack: When I was married my wife whose family was what we in rural New England broadly refer to as "Yankee" (a very specific term actually which is not interpreted negatively as it is when used American Southerners who use it as an aspersion) said invariably I'm "American" when asked what her genealogical heritage was. After I'd learned her genealogy by substantial investigation I'd found she was roughly 85% English by ancestry with the remaining 15% Scottish or Scots-Irish.

Yet since her family had been here for easily 14 generations their identity was no longer acknowledged as "English" by genetics. But if you ask my best girlfriend from adolesence (whose ancestors migrated from Ireland post-1850) she still (to this day) refers to herself as "Irish-American".

I'm not sure why the English as a nationality are largely over-looked when you ask Americans in general what their background is. In that same vein I recently met a man whose last name is "Kempton". I asked him if he knew his nationality since I do genealogy as an avocation. Oh yes I'm "all Irish". I told him to go ask his father if he was Irish or English. Several weeks later this same man took me aside and said "how did you know I was English on my dad's side?" I said "I'll go you one further. I'm betting your mother's Irish genealogically". He looked at me incredulously and said "Yes. Her maiden name was Hanrahan". What's odd to me is that here again the English gets absorbed as a legitimate background.
 

D_Herin_Ghan

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dong20 said:
Yes Scotland has long had it's own Parliament which first met in 1999. It's relatively powerful, certainly compared to the Welsh Assembly but still defers to Westminster on key issues such as Defence and Foreign Policy. The suspension of the NI assembly is only a small part of the ongoing comical trainwreck that is NI politics right now.

There is nothing comical about the NI political scene IMO. It's more sad than comical. That feud has been ongoing, and 80% of the problem falls directly on the crown and Parliament. The IRA is a brutal organization, this is true. However, I can't help but wonder why when Sectarian violence forced Linfield to play their CL qualifier behind closed doors. Their FA is downsizing the NI league to 10 teams, knocking out some predominantley Catholic teams. There was violence AGAIN at the IRA parade for its fallen soldiers.

Explain to me what Britain has to gain by keeping NI? They have NO connection to the rest of the Irish mainland, just those six counties. They have oppressed those people long enough. Just let em go.
 

dong20

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LINittanyLion said:
There is nothing comical about the NI political scene IMO. It's more sad than comical. That feud has been ongoing, and 80% of the problem falls directly on the crown and Parliament.

I was being ironic, and yes it's anything other than funny.

LINittanyLion said:
.....Explain to me what Britain has to gain by keeping NI? They have NO connection to the rest of the Irish mainland, just those six counties. They have oppressed those people long enough. Just let em go.

I already stated my position on NI. I worry that the continued suspension of Stormont is slowly unravelling the last ten years of hard won progress.
 

B_Stronzo

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LINittanyLion said:
Explain to me what Britain has to gain by keeping NI? They have NO connection to the rest of the Irish mainland, just those six counties. They have oppressed those people long enough. Just let em go.

'Those people' Lion also consist of many who descend mulit-generationally from English and Scottish Protestants who consider that land as much "home" as the resident generational Irish Roman Catholics. And indeed as much "home" as we do our own New World terra firma.

You cannot over-simplify the thing by simply wishing the thing away. If that were the case we'd be packing up collectively here in Massachusetts and giving the lands back to the Wamanoags.
 

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hung said:
It seems that almost every other new member in the Large Penis Support Group has a UK address.

Is it the water or what.
or, given that at least 80% of the posters here are fakes and/or liars in some respect, maybe there's just a lot of bullshitters in the UK :biggrin1:

dong20 said:
Personally I think NI may be better 're-united' with the Republic.
what on earth makes you think they'd want it?

LINittanyLion said:
Explain to me what Britain has to gain by keeping NI?
absolutely nothing. quite the opposite, when you think about it. however as long as the majority of ulster residents identify themselves as british and demand to remain part of the UK, the clowns in westminster are kinda obligated to deal with it. what would your recommendation be - to force or bribe the government of eire to adopt it, and just ask the british army to "re-settle" all the ulster brits on tristan da cunha?
 

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dong20 said:
I didn't suggest they would.
... so how would ulster be "better reunited" with them then? you can't force a country to take responsibility for a region that its government has consistenty averred they want nothing to do with. every time it's been suggested, we've explained to the brits that eire cannot spare the kind of military strength and human resources necessary to even keep an effective lid on ulster, let alone try to govern it. i mean, take a look: they've done a pretty fucking terrible job of that themselves over the past 86 years, even with their cutting-edge security forces and limitless oceans of tax money.
 

D_Herin_Ghan

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Dr Rock said:
absolutely nothing. quite the opposite, when you think about it. however as long as the majority of ulster residents identify themselves as british and demand to remain part of the UK, the clowns in westminster are kinda obligated to deal with it. what would your recommendation be - to force or bribe the government of eire to adopt it, and just ask the british army to "re-settle" all the ulster brits on tristan da cunha?
I have a funny feeling the Ulster Freedom fighters have a shitload to say on this issue. The phrase "Prepared for Peace, Ready for War" kinda gives me the impression that they aren't exactly OK with said British settlers being there. I watched Some Mother's Son the other night again, and granted it has always had an effect on my viewing of the conflict, the British treatment of Irish prisoners was absolutely deplorable even in modern times.

Britain made their own mess with this one when they decided to intervene in an age old conflict of interest between Catholics and Protestants. In my opinion, the first thing which needs to be done is the complete reconfiguration of the "Orangemen". They have been completely dominated by protestants for too long, and granted over the past 10 years things had started to improve, the IRA was killing Catholics who attempted to join (one of my ancestors who is Scouse, but was a Catholic due to his ancient Irish roots was one of em) up until around 20 years ago. You need a cooperative force of protestant and catholic policemen first an foremost. This police unit should only be loyal to Northern Irish parliament, and have nothing to do with Westminster.

It takes a lot to end a conflict, this we all know. Keep in mind however, Israel pulled their settlers out of their homes in Gaza, it's perfectly within reason to have Britain do the same if need be..
 

dong20

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Dr Rock said:
... so how would ulster be "better reunited" with them then? you can't force a country to take responsibility for a region that its government has consistenty averred they want nothing to do with. every time it's been suggested, we've explained to the brits that eire cannot spare the kind of military strength and human resources necessary to even keep an effective lid on ulster, let alone try to govern it. i mean, take a look: they've done a pretty fucking terrible job of that themselves over the past 86 years, even with their cutting-edge security forces and limitless oceans of tax money.

Who mentioned forcing anyone to do anything? Well, aside from sectarian terrorists and who cares what they think. The last 'vote' on this issue was in 1973 and the answer was no, so what can I say?

FWIW, I was thinking as much it may be better for Britain as well as the citizens of NI, then of course it may not be; I'm not sure, that's why I said may and not would. Subtle distinction sure, but it's there.

I don't know how the Republic would see it for sure, do you? And who is the 'we' in "we've explained to the Brits"? If you mean the US then you can imagine how much I care what the US thinks and says about NI.:rolleyes: :tongue:
 

dreamer20

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col said:
Something I've never been able to grasp fully :redface: is what the difference is between someone calling themselves British and English? Is British the more insular term because it is separate from the Welsh, Scots and Irish and then you use English if you want to refer to the whole country?
Applying a global view, as opposed to an insular one, one should not forget that the term "British" applies to the citizens of the following territories too, including me as I hail from the isle of Bermuda.

dong20 said:
Anguilla, Bermuda, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Montserrat, St Helena and Dependencies (Ascension Island and Tristan da Cunha), Turk and Caicos Islands, Pitcairn Island, South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands,
 

Jason

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There is nothing simple about the way the UK is set up - and Brits misunderstand it almost as much as others. To complicate matters the whole system is in a state of slow change. At the moment Scotland through its parliament and Wales through its assembly are asserting ever greater self-determination. As a result England is beginning to stress Englishness. In the 2006 world cup England supporters waved English flags; in the 1966 world cup England supporters waved the UK Union Jack.

Lots of people outside the UK don't realise that there are different bank notes in different parts of the UK. We have the Bank of England providing most of the notes in England and Wales. Scotland has three issuing banks: Clydesdale, Bank of Scotland, Royal Bank - and Northern Ireland has four issuing banks. Just to confuse everyone one of these is Bank of Ireland. Places like Gibraltar issue their own notes and coins.

The position of territories such as the Channel Islands and Isle of Man is also evolving. They are outside the EU, but pressure has been brought on them to conform for some aspects of banking, for example. There is a movement for a "Council of the Islands" to maintain their status outside the EU.
 

dong20

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Jason said:
There is nothing simple about the way the UK is set up - and Brits misunderstand it almost as much as others. ..... In the 2006 world cup England supporters waved English flags; in the 1966 world cup England supporters waved the UK Union Jack.

And few know that there is a belief that it should be called the Union 'Flag' and only called the Union 'Jack' when flown at sea by non civilian vessels. There is some controversy about this but it adds a little extra complexity.:rolleyes:

The resurgence of 'Englishness' over recent years is an interesting phenonemon. The Banner of St. George used to have such negative connotations.
 

Jason

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QUOTE FROM ABOVE "Britain made their own mess with this one when they decided to intervene in an age old conflict of interest between Catholics and Protestants. In my opinion, the first thing which needs to be done is the complete reconfiguration of the "Orangemen". They have been completely dominated by protestants for too long, and granted over the past 10 years things had started to improve, the IRA was killing Catholics who attempted to join (one of my ancestors who is Scouse, but was a Catholic due to his ancient Irish roots was one of em) up until around 20 years ago. You need a cooperative force of protestant and catholic policemen first an foremost. This police unit should only be loyal to Northern Irish parliament, and have nothing to do with Westminster."

It is true that there have been problems in Ireland for a very long time, but the recent "troubles" date from the late 1960s. The UK government did not have any choice but be involved in a domestic issue within a part of the UK, just as the USA would be involved if civil unrest broke out in California or Florida. The Orangemen are effectively a social club comprised of protestants loyal to the Queen. They are going to remain protestant. They are not a political force themself, though there are links with the two main Unionist parties. I don't doubt that the IRA might have killed people who tried to join - the IRA are terrorist murderers and criminals who have maimed, murdered and threatened the people of the UK. We do have a cooperative police force: PSNI, which is constituted to be accountable to the Northern Ireland assembly. However the assembly is presently suspended. Sinn Fein, the political wing of the IRA, were caught planning attacks on their political opponents, their families and supporters. The DUP walked out as they felt that they could not engage in a democratic process with terrorists, so we're back with direct government from London.

The US could do a lot to help matters by encouraging a better understanding by its citizens of what is happening in Northern Ireland. There is a lot of silly romanticism from the US. NI is an integral part of the UK because the majority of its people want this, and this state of affairs is fully accepted by the Irish Republic - indeed there is no way Dublin wants the problems of the north. We have however a sad history of destabilisation by IRA, and a dubious record on the part of their political wing Sinn Fein. Yet in the US Noraid, which raises funds for the terrorists of IRA, is a legal group. Sinn Fein does not get appropriate condemnation in the US press.
 

dong20

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Jason said:
The US could do a lot to help matters by encouraging a better understanding by its citizens of what is happening in Northern Ireland. There is a lot of silly romanticism from the US. NI is an integral part of the UK because the majority of its people want this, and this state of affairs is fully accepted by the Irish Republic - indeed there is no way Dublin wants the problems of the north. We have however a sad history of destabilisation by IRA, and a dubious record on the part of their political wing Sinn Fein. Yet in the US Noraid, which raises funds for the terrorists of IRA, is a legal group. Sinn Fein does not get appropriate condemnation in the US press.

I couldn't agree more. It's for the people of NI to decide, the last time they were asked was over 30 years ago and it was a resounding no, even if Nationalists boycotted the vote, no-one made them. Do you have an sense that the answer would be different today. Would you think joining the Republic would be bad, not right now obviously but in the long term?

It makes me laugh (sardonically) at the fairy tale image the US so often has of or portrays events happening outside it's borders. Well the US administration probably has a good idea (well, maybe), but there's political capital and money in supporting those 'freedom fighters' in that 'Emerald Isle'.:rolleyes:

Personally I'd like to see the US keep out and stop meddling in things they will never understand, hell I barely do so what hope has a clown like Bush got.:biggrin1:

It's hardly eden, but I'd hate to see the last ten years come unravelled, as I'm sure you feel the same?
 

eddyabs

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I am half Irish, half English/British (take your pick), and I spend a lot of time in Eire (the Republic of Ireland) with my family there. Many discussions have taken place over the years, and a large percentage of Irish people tend to ignore the Northern Ireland problem, not seeing NI as their problem...'leave it to the Brits' tends to be the general attitude...in other words, 'we couldn't give a monkeys'. The fact is that the UK government has been and is in a right old pickle about Northern Ireland. ..what to do??? If the UK gives Northern Ireland independence (pretty much impossible)..or back to Ireland (even more impossible)....there would be bloodshed like never before, which, if you think about, makes the possible, well, pretty much impossible, without having further blood on our hands. The situation is relatively quiet there now, so why do anything...while there are still waters, lay back and enjoy. The fact is that a larger percentage of the population in NI want to remain a part of the UK (I am totally impartial). Unfortunately, Britains colonial past has had created many undesirable headaches for present politicians...but also has contributed greatly to Britains affluent and hugely successful multi cultural mix. Caribbean, African, Asian....all here, and compared to anywhere else in the world, extremely intermixed, equal and happy.

I noticed many Americans posting messages about this subject, I like you Yanks, good people (the ones I have met)...but let us not forget, your foreign policy totally sucks shit, need I name but a few of the hundreds of 'headaches' that your country has created in it's globally short history....Vietnam, Korea, Panama.....the list goes on and on, sorry to say it guys, but you now top the list of global bullies....

P.S. and does NORAID ring a bell to any of our American cousins????
(fingers in pies, fingers in pies...)
 

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LINittanyLion said:
I have a funny feeling the Ulster Freedom fighters have a shitload to say on this issue.
doesn't everyone. and virtually none of it ever seems to be applicable to the real world.

they aren't exactly OK with said British settlers being there.
:shrug: many of those british "settlers" have been there for 400+ years. it's a little late to start blaming them for shit that their long-dead ancestors were mostly forced to do. bear in mind that a whole lot of ulster brits are descended from scots who were themselves fleeing sectarian persecution on the mainland.

Keep in mind however, Israel pulled their settlers out of their homes in Gaza
you'll have to excuse me if i don't look to israel for guidance on how to resolve conflicts of interest. also see "settlers" above

dong20 said:
Who mentioned forcing anyone to do anything?
:confused: it's the only way you'd ever get the irish government to take on ulster. they sure as hell wouldn't do it voluntarily.

I don't know how the Republic would see it for sure, do you?
well, given that i'm from there, i probably have a better idea than most of you