Questions for God...
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Yes .Why to me is the most important or the most vital question .
The main question.
JustAsking
Sexy Member
Jason,
I am checking in while at work with just enough time to say that you have made your case against the God that permits evil passionately and eloquently. I will be back tonight to do it justice. Thanks for a truly interesting discussion.
In the meantime (since I can't resist a really great discussion for very long) , I want to say that I am with you that I don't find a complete or a satisfying answer in the "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" justification for God's seeming non-intervention. I would modify it to say,
1) That what might kill you (but doesn't) might make you stronger.
2) That what might kill you (but doesn't) might make you insane or emotionally crippled.
3) That what might kill you (but doesn't) might cause you to physically suffer for hours, days, months, or years unmercifully, such that you wish for #5.
4) That what might kill you (but doesn't) might put you in a coma or a mentally vegetative state for the rest of your life.
5) That what might kill you, might actually just kill you.
So I don't think the whole answer is contained in #1, like the_reverend was implying, nor do I find intrinsic "meaning" in the other choices.
Secondly, (and I am sure the_rev would say this, too) God doesn't cause evil in order to test or edify a person's faith or emotional maturity. If I believed that, I would be standing in the same lynch party as you, ready to lynch God asap.
Naturally, that still leaves your demand for a answer to why God permits evil, or creates a universe where misery and suffering are possible and frequent.
One other thing. A world where God performs very frequent miracles (where I define a miracle as a momentary suspension of the laws of nature) every day in order to limit anyone's potential suffering is a world in which we could not operate since nothing in the world would behave with any kind of consistency.
I will be back tonight to give my opinion. Thanks again, everyone for a truly interesting discussion.
JA
I am checking in while at work with just enough time to say that you have made your case against the God that permits evil passionately and eloquently. I will be back tonight to do it justice. Thanks for a truly interesting discussion.
In the meantime (since I can't resist a really great discussion for very long) , I want to say that I am with you that I don't find a complete or a satisfying answer in the "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" justification for God's seeming non-intervention. I would modify it to say,
1) That what might kill you (but doesn't) might make you stronger.
2) That what might kill you (but doesn't) might make you insane or emotionally crippled.
3) That what might kill you (but doesn't) might cause you to physically suffer for hours, days, months, or years unmercifully, such that you wish for #5.
4) That what might kill you (but doesn't) might put you in a coma or a mentally vegetative state for the rest of your life.
5) That what might kill you, might actually just kill you.
So I don't think the whole answer is contained in #1, like the_reverend was implying, nor do I find intrinsic "meaning" in the other choices.
Secondly, (and I am sure the_rev would say this, too) God doesn't cause evil in order to test or edify a person's faith or emotional maturity. If I believed that, I would be standing in the same lynch party as you, ready to lynch God asap.
Naturally, that still leaves your demand for a answer to why God permits evil, or creates a universe where misery and suffering are possible and frequent.
One other thing. A world where God performs very frequent miracles (where I define a miracle as a momentary suspension of the laws of nature) every day in order to limit anyone's potential suffering is a world in which we could not operate since nothing in the world would behave with any kind of consistency.
I will be back tonight to give my opinion. Thanks again, everyone for a truly interesting discussion.
JA
JustAsking
Sexy Member
Thanks! I'm really enjoying this too! Very happy to be engaging.
If all creation is of God then evil is of God as well. Nothing exists which God does not will to exist. If that is not the case then man is as gods because we have created evil without God and so God is either indifferent or powerless to stop it. Why bother praying? Why build churches? It's pointless. God will not intercede no matter what.
Life just doesn't seem to matter much to God nor does love. If I knew that I would sire a son who would die by crucifixion then I wouldn't have a son for if I did, then I would be as good as driving nails into his wrists myself and the thought of a parent allowing that to happen to their own child is... I don't have words to express that kind of contempt. More reprehensible still is if I allowed his crucifixion to happen and I had the power to stop it. Christians are worshiping a deity who committed infanticide. Dare I say that if, "we are all his children," then he's doing it on a daily basis, ignoring the screams and cries of his children, letting them die in horrific manner at the hands of his other children or even his other creations.
Supposedly God willed the substances of the earth and heavens, willed our dust to become living flesh, willed us to have free will of our own. Christianity makes great pains to teach us to be something God clearly is not. We can be more compassionate, more loving, even more just than God for we sometimes act when he does not. If we hear screams we can call others to assist, use all our resources to rescue, use our justice to punish and incarcerate evil doers so they cannot harm again, use our medicine to heal, and even say and write words to comfort the surviving. Some of us are far more gracious and concerned than God ever is or was.
Then I think you're underestimating the power of God in the J/C/I context. Miracles are not the suspension of the laws of nature because God is nature by creationist reasoning. What God decides the laws shall be are what they are and are natural for it. If God willed there to be a 5-sided triangle then a 5-sided triangle would exist. We might be unable to comprehend or detect it but it would exist. There may even be one somewhere out there. Similarly if God wished us to function in a state where miracles occurred then we would. We may not be able to imagine how we would function as we do now but then we don't have to. God would will it and that's enough.
If all creation is of God then evil is of God as well. Nothing exists which God does not will to exist. If that is not the case then man is as gods because we have created evil without God and so God is either indifferent or powerless to stop it. Why bother praying? Why build churches? It's pointless. God will not intercede no matter what.
Life just doesn't seem to matter much to God nor does love. If I knew that I would sire a son who would die by crucifixion then I wouldn't have a son for if I did, then I would be as good as driving nails into his wrists myself and the thought of a parent allowing that to happen to their own child is... I don't have words to express that kind of contempt. More reprehensible still is if I allowed his crucifixion to happen and I had the power to stop it. Christians are worshiping a deity who committed infanticide. Dare I say that if, "we are all his children," then he's doing it on a daily basis, ignoring the screams and cries of his children, letting them die in horrific manner at the hands of his other children or even his other creations.
Supposedly God willed the substances of the earth and heavens, willed our dust to become living flesh, willed us to have free will of our own. Christianity makes great pains to teach us to be something God clearly is not. We can be more compassionate, more loving, even more just than God for we sometimes act when he does not. If we hear screams we can call others to assist, use all our resources to rescue, use our justice to punish and incarcerate evil doers so they cannot harm again, use our medicine to heal, and even say and write words to comfort the surviving. Some of us are far more gracious and concerned than God ever is or was.
Then I think you're underestimating the power of God in the J/C/I context. Miracles are not the suspension of the laws of nature because God is nature by creationist reasoning. What God decides the laws shall be are what they are and are natural for it. If God willed there to be a 5-sided triangle then a 5-sided triangle would exist. We might be unable to comprehend or detect it but it would exist. There may even be one somewhere out there. Similarly if God wished us to function in a state where miracles occurred then we would. We may not be able to imagine how we would function as we do now but then we don't have to. God would will it and that's enough.
Hello God- perhaps you'd like to explain the evilness of my landlord when it comes to supplying adequate heat. No? In that case, why is it that pornographic films and stories are considered to be naughty?
And why was Gilligan's Island cancelled before we got to see the Skipper and Ginger having sex?
Is it true that when we die we get the opposite in terms of size when it comes to our genitals and that the men who are now large will be teensy weensy then while the small and average will be large? And big breasted women will be flat chested while flat chested women will have trouble standing upright from their new breast size?
Is there orgasmic sex in the hereafter?
Seeing as how we have two ears, to eyes and two nostrils in the nose, why don't we also have two mouths?
Did you approve of Joan of Arcadia as a television show?
Why didn't you build the world with padded sidewalks?
When you planned that flood, what were you going to do if:
A) Noah had turned out to be a homosexual
B) Noah had no children
C) Noah and his wife had just had a feud and weren't speaking
D) Noah had not had any boat building skills?
And why was Gilligan's Island cancelled before we got to see the Skipper and Ginger having sex?
Is it true that when we die we get the opposite in terms of size when it comes to our genitals and that the men who are now large will be teensy weensy then while the small and average will be large? And big breasted women will be flat chested while flat chested women will have trouble standing upright from their new breast size?
Is there orgasmic sex in the hereafter?
Seeing as how we have two ears, to eyes and two nostrils in the nose, why don't we also have two mouths?
Did you approve of Joan of Arcadia as a television show?
Why didn't you build the world with padded sidewalks?
When you planned that flood, what were you going to do if:
A) Noah had turned out to be a homosexual
B) Noah had no children
C) Noah and his wife had just had a feud and weren't speaking
D) Noah had not had any boat building skills?
B_Italian1
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That's why we want you to come over to the light side. Believe me, those bad things will still happen, but they'll be a lot more bearable.
the_reverend
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there isn't any justice in it. i never claimed there was. the lesson exists on a far greater scale than one individual life. we're all learning and teaching with everything we do and say in this world, and everything that is done and said in turn. and while i don't know what happens after we die, i believe that death is not the end. so the lessons we learn, our experiences, our emotions, our fears and loves, are all taken with us.
i never mentioned Christianity having value. yes, i am a Christian, but i'm talking about greater ideas than any one particular specific faith. clearly, any compassionate PERSON given the choice and the power would say "yes, do away with all evil and suffering in the world." but one, would they be entirely in the right to do so? because in doing so you prevent conflict, change and growth. you impose your will upon others, even if it is a benevolent will. and second, just because it's what a compassionate person would do does not mean it's what a compassionate God would do. you asked why God allows such things. because allowing us to live freely, make our mistakes and hurt each other is far greater and more beneficial in the long run than forcing us to live, think and act in perfect harmony so that no one ever has to be hurt or unhappy. it may seem perfect on the surface, but at the cost of our ability to think and choose for ourselves? to feel the full spectrum of human emotion and experience? that's too costly to my mind.
it serves us all to learn and grow. you want God to swoop in and end all war and genocide...but then where does it stop? should He also end all arguments and conflict of any kind? no more accidents with broken arms and scraped knees? no more heartbreak and loneliness? no more hurricanes or disease? you begin to take this idea of God making sure everyone is safe and happy all the time forever and ever to its final conclusion and the world becomes a very sterile and stagnant place.
love can exist with out evil. just as light can exist without darkness. but they offer definition, context, understanding. things are given value by their opposites. you can't fully grasp freedom without knowledge and understanding of oppression. you can't truly know how to appreciate joy unless you've also known sorrow. so i would say that we could have love without evil, but we wouldn't understand or appreciate it as much.
that's not what i said at all. i don't believe evil triumphs. i believe that it can inspire incredible strength and nobility, acts of bravery and kindness. God abandons no one. you see suffering and death as this great final indignity that there can be nothing worse than, that to die or suffer means that God has abandoned you. i believe He's there more than ever for you in those times. God isn't Superman. His function isn't to swoop in out of the sky and save everybody's life. because death is not the end. it's just another step in the journey. what lies beyond that step, none of us know. but to believe in God is to believe that there is something beyond this life, beyond this reality. and if you don't believe in God, then it's a moot question anyway because no answer about Him will ever satisfy you.
it's not just about that. it's about EVERYTHING in your life. that's just one aspect. you choosing not to acknowledge that isn't going to stop suffering or cruelty in the world, not to use it in yourself not just for feeling better about yourself but to inspire the obvious passion and emotion you feel about that suffering and to direct it towards some greater good, towards helping people or creating or inventing or something, anything, then all it will ever be is just senseless cruelty happening to strangers in another part of the world. it is what YOU do with how you feel about it that gives it any real value in your life.
right, and thus if we saw someone drowning we would know it was necessary and good to rescue them. if we saw someone strangling another person, we would know it is good and necessary to stop them from doing so. i think you're taking my use of the word "lesson" the wrong way...we learn things in life through our experiences. we learn what it is like to feel this, to think that, to do this, to say that. it's not the acquisition of knowledge, but the collection of wisdom. just because someone has died doesn't mean they haven't learned something. hell, they've learned the ultimate answer...what is death and what lies beyond it? someone who commits such atrocities has truly experienced what it is like to take another life, to be cruel, to torture...to be evil. do they continue to be evil, or do they realize what they've done later and repent and try to redeem themselves? and as for witnesses...well, clearly there are. just because we don't see the act itself doesn't mean we don't bear witness to what has happened and learn our own lessons, feel our own emotions, experience it in our own ways. all the suffering you mention, the wars and genocides and such...how could you mention them if you had not heard of them? in this way, you are a witness. you stand as an outraged soul in the face of such travesty, demanding justice and sense out of an unjust and senseless situation. i'm saddened and disheartened by them as well, and stand aghast at how we as fellow human beings can allow such acts to continue and realizing how immense such problems are and how difficult the solutions will be to come by without just making it all worse. i don't hold God responsible because i see these things as the necessary cost of living in a world of free thinking individuals with diverse and varying philosophies and ideologies and traditions. conflict is inevitable, and that conflict will ignite into wars and will lead the strong to impose their will and brutality upon the weak. there will be suffering. there will be pain. there will be death. it is not God's will nor His function to step in and end it all so that we can all just get along. because in order to accomplish that, we would have to live in a perfectly white washed monoculture with no difference in thought or appearance. we would HAVE to. there would be no choice in it. no freedom. and to my mind, that's far more cruel and unjust. the responsibility falls on US to find ways to end suffering, to save lives, to live together. if God just steps in and does it for us, then it has no meaning, no value. we haven't grown or learned at all. we cease being His children and start being His pets.
my two cents. though i doubt there'll ever be an answer to satisfy you. not that that's a bad thing. the fire in your belly and the strength of your convictions will serve you well, my friend.
the_reverend
Sexy Member
i suppose i would ask Him why He allowed Fox to cancel Firefly...:tongue:
He created Cancun and daiquiris.
my personal belief on the matter (as i think i've expressed elsewhere) is that God exists in a realm of absolutes. ALL knowing, ALL present, ALL loving, ALL powerful...perfection. but with no context, there's no meaning. if you know everything but you are all there is, then all you know is that you exist. which is kind of a cool Zen concept, but I think God wanted to learn and grow and become MORE perfect. So He created a universe through which to experience Himself subjectively. All things spring from God and thus all things are God. we all carry a spark of that divine essence within us and when our time here is done, we return to that divine Source carrying all we have seen, done, thought, believed, loved, feared, enjoyed, regretted...all of it. and perhaps we come back again and play the game in a different suit or perhaps we're reabsorbed into the cosmic background and become the stuff of planets and stars. But in the end, every emotion, every experience, every possibility of infinity is explored and endeavoured and understood and all comes back to that initial starting point. And God is all knowing because there was an all to know and in the end it comes back once more to knowing that He, and thus We, exist. only now it MEANS something. it's a grand experiment. it's an improvised play. it's a storybook and we're both the characters and the imagination of the author. it's a process in development. it's a self correcting and refining system. the meaning of life is to live. the meaning of creation is to create. we're fulfilling our destinies and purposes just by being here. :biggrin1:
He created Cancun and daiquiris.
my personal belief on the matter (as i think i've expressed elsewhere) is that God exists in a realm of absolutes. ALL knowing, ALL present, ALL loving, ALL powerful...perfection. but with no context, there's no meaning. if you know everything but you are all there is, then all you know is that you exist. which is kind of a cool Zen concept, but I think God wanted to learn and grow and become MORE perfect. So He created a universe through which to experience Himself subjectively. All things spring from God and thus all things are God. we all carry a spark of that divine essence within us and when our time here is done, we return to that divine Source carrying all we have seen, done, thought, believed, loved, feared, enjoyed, regretted...all of it. and perhaps we come back again and play the game in a different suit or perhaps we're reabsorbed into the cosmic background and become the stuff of planets and stars. But in the end, every emotion, every experience, every possibility of infinity is explored and endeavoured and understood and all comes back to that initial starting point. And God is all knowing because there was an all to know and in the end it comes back once more to knowing that He, and thus We, exist. only now it MEANS something. it's a grand experiment. it's an improvised play. it's a storybook and we're both the characters and the imagination of the author. it's a process in development. it's a self correcting and refining system. the meaning of life is to live. the meaning of creation is to create. we're fulfilling our destinies and purposes just by being here. :biggrin1:
B_Italian1
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If you take care of yourself you can live longer. At one time people didn't make it past 40.
the_reverend said:
the_reverend said:
Then we should stand by and do nothing when we find suffering because it's not what God would do? Shouldn't we emulate God? By saving someone from suffering we might prevent someone from experiencing change and growth? Then how do we know what suffering we should or should not prevent? What if we suddenly find a cure for all diseases, invent an impenetrable personal shield? Should we not use them?
I'm quite sure if you told a person being tortured to death they're dying for a far greater and beneficial humanity you'll be told you're full of shit unless you're interviewing a martyr and even then I wouldn't be too sure. You're essentially giving the evil doer carte blanche to achieve a nobler end for the greater good. I find that perverse.
the_reverend said:
How do you know? I believe most people would love to live in harmony with each other, not suffering accident or hurt. Isn't that what we imagine heaven to be? Certainly someone being burned at the stake would wish to be at that point in time.
If you are a Christian then you believe that we were created in a harmonious paradise. Man himself chose to leave that paradise. That was our doing, not God's. As far as Christianity is concerned, man bit the apple of knowledge and fell from grace. It's considered original sin. It was a transgression against God and man was driven from paradise.
You're valuing the fruits of the sin; free-choice, self-knowledge, unhappiness, thinking and choosing; above the paradise which we were originally given.
Once again, if God wants to give us free will while also being unable to harm each other then he can do so. Do not place human limits on God. If he is omnipotent then what God wishes can be.
invisibleman
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THe MeaNiNG oF LiFe:
The art of multitasking love, learning, living with uncertainty, assurance, dynamicism and to be superheroes, angels, supervillans, or demons to our fellow man...if you believe it so. We live life to learn how it is like to be God and live understand how it is to suffer. Without suffering, you cannot appreciate living.
Why life is unfair? To illustrate and illuminate areas where fairness needs to be...or learn to be compromising.
Why evil exists? Opportunities for good to prevail. Counterbalance. Counterbalance. Counterbalance. Maybe learn a valuable lesson you need to learn or deal with. But then you REALLY have to define those evils to make sure evil is TRULY that.
Nature is cruel and brutal with animals because of their nature and living on a baser, unbridled instinct. You never see an animal say "Well ah'l be Gawldammed, I am starvin'. I am goin' down to the ATM ta git sum munny ta eat at Food Chain King. I lik' th' way those cuntry Bubs run over the roadkill there. Got those tire treads on the venison like I lik' 'em. Black, jagged and deep with extra road grit in t'ere."
Animals do not live by ethical doctrine. "Never saw a cheetah in church before. Cheetahs don't read the Bible or any religious text."
Why didn't God create a perfect world? Well, maybe to illustrate this:
If we were created in God's image and God works in mysterious ways, then we work in mysterious ways. Humans create things that aren't perfect and we create things that are. Maybe God is a reflection of His hand. Maybe life is perfect and the way you perceive it makes it not so. With life being uncertain, random and dynamic, the perfection is in that. We can either manifest the goodness and the mercifulness of God's hand in our works...or we can manifest the wrath.
God created good and evil maybe to give humans something to do. Something to occupy our waking moments. Maybe something to allow God to learn from us.
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