Race and America

[madame_zora]

Originally posted by GottaBigOne@Aug 7 2005, 11:58 PM
Shamrock, that was my basic point, that affirmative action is defended as combating racial disrcimination but it actully encourages racial discrimination because people are getting hired because of their skin color and nothing else (no matter what that skin color is) If one wants to say that racial discrimination is wrong then one must be consistent and say that affirmative actiuon is wrong. Some people seem to believe that two wrongs make a right, and that wronging the group that has received and still receives in some cases certain preferences will somehow even everything out.
The greatest form of hypocrisy that I see is how certain people who say they are against sexism, or racism, also seem to think that unless your a minority woman you can't understand either. Doesn't that seem sexist and racist to anyone else??

[post=333711]Quoted post[/post]​

Well, if two wrongs DON'T make a right, then why do we incarcerate murderers and rapists? If a group has been severely hobbled by the misdeeds of a society, are you then suggesting that NOTHING be done? I want to hear you say that. I want to know what you think SHOULD happen. Do you really think we should "level the playing field" while minoriteies and women are at a severe disadvantage? I believe this IS what you're saying, I just want to clarify. If that's the case, then any white asshole could get a job, but only very exceptional women and minorities would be able to support their families. The laws are in place because most of the people in positions to hire WILL NOT OFFER EQUAL OPPORTUNITY to women or minorities unless forced. If you're okay with that, then fuck you very much, and I do mean that sincerely.

 

[madame_zora]

Chimera, I understand very well, and for what it's worth, I have said several times that I understand the flaws in the system. What I haven't heard is one suggestion of how make it better. Since I also don't have a good suggestion, I think some relief is better than none. Having experienced this shit extensively firsthand, I feel secure in saying that if it were not for the laws, far less minorities and women who ARE capable and trying would not be employed. Yes, I know how disgusting it is to work side by side with lazy people who take advantage of the system, but you must admit that these are not the majority and it would be a shame to revert back to the system where no one had a chance but white men just because of the bad behavior of the few. White men are not the only people who have responsibilities, or who need to eat, but there was once a time in our culture where they were the only ones to have access to gainful employment. Should we then forget what we know about how people operate and naively suggest that it will all magically be better now? Because of what? Give me some reasoning.

There are of white men who support AA, or it would not have been passed into law in the first place. The white male is not the enemy- the greedy white male is! He is cut of the same fabric as the lazy minority, each is looking for the easy way out.

It's just not good enough to say "level the playing field" when you know damned well it's not level, then claim not to be suggesting a disadvantage for minorities. You can't offer pure bullshit and expect not to be called out.


edit- as for the first point, I will now refer you to prison rape. We all know it happens, denying it is obtuse. Some feel that it is a just reward for the crimes of murder, rape and molestation.

 

[madame_zora]

Originally posted by ChimeraTX+Aug 9 2005, 03:16 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChimeraTX &#064; Aug 9 2005, 03:16 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-madame_zora@Aug 8 2005, 10:00 PM
Chimera, I understand very well, and for what it&#39;s worth, I have said several times that I understand the flaws in the system. What I haven&#39;t heard is one suggestion of how make it better.

[post=333809]Quoted post[/post]​

I would rather employment and education opportunities were based purely upon a meritocratic basis. I feel this is much more plausible today than it was several decades ago.

[post=333816]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]


Based on what??? You are free to FEEL whatever you want, but your feelings don&#39;t make facts. Have you worked over the course of several decades to have drawn such conclusions? NO&#33; You are just displaying ignorance of reality and that is what keeps getting me hot under the collar. I am happy to debate someone who knows at least something about the subject matter, but in this arena, you simply have nothing to offer but opinions, which aren&#39;t very interesting. While you are free to hold opinions, and speak them, they really aren&#39;t worthy of serious debate.

 

[madame_zora]

Originally posted by ChimeraTX+Aug 9 2005, 03:35 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChimeraTX &#064; Aug 9 2005, 03:35 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by madame_zora@Aug 8 2005, 10:23 PM
Based on what???

[post=333819]Quoted post[/post]​

Upon reading, and firsthand experience of the "flaws in the system" of which you spoke.
<!--QuoteBegin-madame_zora@Aug 8 2005, 10:23 PM
You are just displaying ignorance of reality and that is what keeps getting me hot under the collar.

[post=333819]Quoted post[/post]​

I don&#39;t think so, but I do feel it is ignorant to believe that one can suppress the tendency of a person to favor members of their own group.

[post=333826]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]


Well, in truth, you have no firsthand experience at 15 of any significant amount, you simply are not old enough to have. You could have read things, and I trust that you have, but you continually try to bolster your personal opinions with "experience" that you simply could not have had- it makes your argument dubious. Aslo, you continually ignore the most meaningful parts of even my very short posts, because you have no way to answer. I&#39;m done with you.

edit- I have NEVER suggested that anyone could supress the tendancy of one group to show favoritism to their own group without legislation, that&#39;s what this whole argument is about&#33; duh&#33;

 

[KinkGuy]

Originally posted by ChimeraTX@Aug 8 2005, 09:35 PM
and firsthand experience of the "flaws in the system" of which you spoke.

[post=333826]Quoted post[/post]​

What, the black kid get picked for dodge ball before you did?

 

[Dr. Dilznick]

Originally posted by jonb
As for Brazil, the CIA says whites are a majority.

Well, it&#39;s Latin America. The one-drop rule doesn&#39;t apply there.

Example: 80% of Puerto Ricans identified as white in the 2000 Census...and like 40% of Mexicans. Also, you have a lot of dark-skinned Latinos who still identify themselves as white.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-3.pdf

 

[Lex]

KinkGuy--I love you man. Where are my PICS?

Research shows that it takes maybe 4-5 generations for a person to escape the ills of his or her birth (if it happens at all). I know that a LOT of white males have been educated and socialized to look at AA as reverse racism (which is an oxymoron). Its diffidult (I have been avoiding this conversation) because you have to understand that it is still very common that AfAm aren&#39;t called for interviews, as still seen as inferior, less educated, etc. I mean, WOMEN are STILL paid less than men for the saem work. This is no MISTAKE or CHANCE. There are people who MAKE IT SO--DELIBERATELY.

I went to an urban elementary school (my mom transferred me out before 4th grade). No one from that school, regardless of talent go into the city wide higschool. Then I met up with som eof my 3rd grade school mates in a citywide highschool. Now, if they were irght enough to go to oneof the top high schools in the state, what happened in middle school? Isn&#39;t an "A" supposed to be an "A"?

I went to a Historically Black College and University (after receiving scholarships to MIT, and UofMD) because I wanted to be around 3000 other black men who were trying to make a difference and counter the idea that we are all in jail, uneducated and/or on drugs.

While I understand and appreciate the need for AA for some people, I accpet that it has been abused from time to time (as have ALL all laws-so please get off that soap box). It kills me to hear Bush talk about it when he got inot the school he go into BECAUSE of AA--Legacy preferences IS AA.

I don&#39;t want ANY job if I get it simply becasue I am Black and thankfully I know that hasn&#39;t happened. I have risen from Teacher Aide to Asst. Principal to University Faculty Member by working my ass off to be 200% better than everyone around me. If some people want t look at me and think I am where I am because of A--fine. The sad turth is I&#39;m here becase I am a better and harder worker and AA is just an excuse for thier mediocrity, their own beleifes that they are beter and thier own desparate atempts to continue the legacy of subjugation.

 

[Shamrock]

Originally posted by jonb@Aug 8 2005, 10:47 AM
@Chimera:
It&#39;s funny. I don&#39;t remember South Africa for whites being discriminated against. In fact, their constitution (post-apartheid) specifically says racial discrimination is illegal. But leave it to you to interpret that as discrimination against whites.

As for Brazil, the CIA says whites are a majority.

[post=333724]Quoted post[/post]​

Then I guess what you and I call white are different things.

Most "whites" in Brazil are actually mixed. Having green/blue eyes may make
some of them look more white than other groups, but they are mixed.

Also, as far as discrimmination goes, my ancestory is Celtic, mostly Scottish, a
bit of Irish, and we have been fighting the English for 800 fucking years, does
the UN step in and condemn England? No. Why? Because its not considered
opression, cause white people can&#39;t be opressed. Supposedly.

 

[naughty]

Chimera,

The reason there are Historically Black Colleges and Universities is because of segregation. The other colleges are Historically White Colleges and Universities. Perhaps Lex might have wanted to be somewhere he was affirmed and not in the minority for a change.

Naughty

 

[prepstudinsc]

Read Lex&#39;s post...the hbc&#39;s, for the most part, ARE making a difference. Many of them are educating kids who are the first generation to go to college. The "bougie" people who are college educated for several generations might go there for several reasons: alumni pride/family loyalty, quality of education, to work within the Black community to foster change from within, and maybe to even prove that not all Blacks are what is portrayed on the evening news--that most are upstanding, hardworking citizens. The tradition of the hbc is a vestige from the 1800&#39;s. What&#39;s wrong with it? If it produces good role models and hard workers that are going to enhance our society, shouldn&#39;t we keep it going? Just so you know, Chimera, you could go to one, if you wanted. I know several White people who have grad degrees from an hbc in education because the program was better than at a historically White college.

 

[naughty]

Chimera,

What is the problem here? If HBCU&#39;s give scholarships to whites and you were just complaining about them not doing so, why are you now saying you dont want to take a space from a deserving black person because of a loop hole? I have my own suspicions, but I will keep them to myself.

Monty,

I could not have explained it better. Thank you.

Naughty

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by ChimeraTX@Aug 9 2005, 04:27 PM
I would rather go to a school that has a White majority?

[post=333986]Quoted post[/post]​

why?

 

[Lex]

Originally posted by ChimeraTX+Aug 9 2005, 11:12 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChimeraTX &#064; Aug 9 2005, 11:12 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by Lex@Aug 9 2005, 04:31 AM
Research shows that it takes maybe 4-5 generations for a person to escape the ills of his or her birth (if it happens at all).

[post=333885]Quoted post[/post]​

I don&#39;t understand what you mean.

Originally posted by Lex@Aug 9 2005, 04:31 AM
I went to a Historically Black College and University (after receiving scholarships to MIT, and UofMD) because I wanted to be around 3000 other black men who were trying to make a difference and counter the idea that we are all in jail, uneducated and/or on drugs.

[post=333885]Quoted post[/post]​

LOL, do you have any idea how racist a "historically black college" is? What if I wanted to go to a "historically white college"? What if I wanted to be around 3000 other white men?

[post=333953]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b]

Dude--going to Morehouse, or Spelman or Clark Atlanat U or Howard is NOT racist. ANYONE can apply and attend. They were founded ina time (often by white men and women) when acceptance into a state university or college would NEVER happen for a Black person.

Go research "social mobility." it takes GENERATIONS (meaning from greatgreatgreatgranfather to greatgreatgreatgrandson for people to overcome being porr porr, lower class, etc.

Originally posted by ChimeraTX@Aug 9 2005, 11:57 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-naughty

@Aug 9 2005, 10:30 AM
The reason there are Historically Black Colleges and Universities is because of segregation. The other colleges are Historically White Colleges and Universities.

[post=333958]Quoted post[/post]​

There aren&#39;t any colleges that only allow White students though, but there are those that only allow Black students. They are still a lot of race-specific scholarships aswell.

[/quote]


This is not true. PLEASE research the FACTS before spouting hyperbole. In FACT, there were about FIVE white males at my college when I went there. TI was close frineds with one of them--he played sports, studied African American Literatur/English as a mjor and planned to do social research and teach. All were treated well and befrienced. It is NOT racist to go there-as Naughty (Bless you) is tryng to explain to you.

Please seek first to understand, Chimera. I truly don&#39;t know which is scarier--your limited perspective (which will hopefully only be a function of age) or your seeming unwillingness to expose yourself to thoughts counter to your own (which appear to not all be founded upon ideas with any merit or basis).

 

[madame_zora]

When faced with facts that counter his rhetoric, Chimera will always change his objection. He has been exposing himself for the weasel he is for months folks, you simply can&#39;t have an intelligent conversation with an ignorant person.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Originally posted by ChimeraTX@Aug 9 2005, 01:48 PM
would rather share classes with people in who I share common ancestry and culture.  It&#39;s a preference.

I would rather share classes with others who have a similar interest in the subjects being taught regardless of their ethnic or economic backgrounds. I could be in a classroom full of Cubans. I would have many things in common with them: language, ancestry, traditions, religion, etc. However, the reason that we&#39;re in that classroom is to learn the subject being taught, not reminisce about the old country. My preference is not to have classmates of the same ancestry as I: it&#39;s to have a knowledgeable teacher competent in teaching his subject.

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by ChimeraTX+Aug 9 2005, 06:48 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChimeraTX &#064; Aug 9 2005, 06:48 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dr Rock@Aug 9 2005, 11:54 AM
why?

[post=334000]Quoted post[/post]​

I would rather share classes with people in who I share common ancestry and culture. It&#39;s a preference.

[post=334016]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]
uhh, you go to school to learn shit. what the fuck does it matter what color any other attendee happens to be?

 

[Lex]

Originally posted by ChimeraTX@Aug 9 2005, 02:48 PM
[
I apologize. I was under the impression, incorrectly, that Whites weren&#39;t allowed at HBC & U&#39;s.

Merit is subjective, however basis is not. What makes you feel that my opinions are unfounded; without a valid basis?

[post=334016]Quoted post[/post]​

I think your opinions are unfounded and without valid basis becasue they are.
For example--you call me racist for attending a HBCU and say that they don&#39;t enroll non-African American. Based on that you have formed reactions and opinions upon something that simply ISN&#39;T TRUE. THAT is scary.

Does knowing why/how they were founded and by whome changed your ridiculous "racist" stance? What did you base you opinions on HBCU on prior to my last post--Ignorance (meaning lack of factual knowledge about the subject)--heresay?&#33;?

Nevermind.


Zora--can I have a neck and back rub please ma&#39;am?

 

[prepstudinsc]

Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper+Aug 9 2005, 03:58 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DoubleMeatWhopper &#064; Aug 9 2005, 03:58 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-ChimeraTX@Aug 9 2005, 01:48 PM
would rather share classes with people in who I share common ancestry and culture.  It&#39;s a preference.

I would rather share classes with others who have a similar interest in the subjects being taught regardless of their ethnic or economic backgrounds.

<SNIP>

My preference is not to have classmates of the same ancestry as I: it&#39;s to have a knowledgeable teacher competent in teaching his subject.

[post=334036]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]


The thing about any college, including a hbcu, is that the people attending come from very diverse backgrounds, even though they might share a darker skin color. Students attending the school might be from a wealthy northern family who has attended the school for 4 generations and has two buildings named after them, but sitting across the aisle from that student might be a person from a Caribbean Island who, while Black, is clearly from another culture. Next to that student, might be someone who grew up in the projects in Atlanta, worked hard in school, is on scholarship, and is the first person in his or her family to go to college and wants to make a difference in the society that they came from.

Having many friends who are Black--not all of them are African-American, some are from the islands, it&#39;s interesting to get their perspective on the schools. It&#39;s also interesting to see why some went to a university like Morehouse or Hampton or why they went to Yale.

The main purpose of a college or university, however, is to learn so that when any of us gets out into the world we are better equipped to do our job and to serve in whatever role we chose to work.

 

[prepstudinsc]

Originally posted by Dr Rock+Aug 9 2005, 12:54 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr Rock &#064; Aug 9 2005, 12:54 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-ChimeraTX@Aug 9 2005, 04:27 PM
I would rather go to a school that has a White majority?

[post=333986]Quoted post[/post]​

why?

[post=334000]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

because he&#39;s racist.

 

[Shamrock]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Aug 10 2005, 04:27 AM
When faced with facts that counter his rhetoric, Chimera will always change his objection. He has been exposing himself for the weasel he is for months folks, you simply can&#39;t have an intelligent conversation with an ignorant person.

[post=334014]Quoted post[/post]​

Chimera is ignorant? And your constant use of "white men" this "white men" that
to describe your bitter view of society is so enlightened?
If you want to accuse Chimera of something you yourself show all the time in your
hysterical white male hating, then you are the ultimate hypocrit.