Race and America

Lex

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He is ignorant in that he makes HUGE assumptions without a working understanding and knowledge of the facts. These issues are not new, although we repeatedly attempt to help him see things in a different light (I guess WE are insane).

I would go on about the white male issue, but I've already been called racist for going to a Black college, so I'll pass, thanks.

Zora--I REALLY need that back rub.

PrepStud--thanks for adding your personal experience and perspective on the HBCU issue. It was refreshing to hear an "outsider" who "gets it." HUGS.
 

GottaBigOne

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Originally posted by Lex@Aug 9 2005, 09:31 AM
KinkGuy--I love you man. Where are my PICS? :)

Research shows that it takes maybe 4-5 generations for a person to escape the ills of his or her birth (if it happens at all). I know that a LOT of white males have been educated and socialized to look at AA as reverse racism (which is an oxymoron). Its diffidult (I have been avoiding this conversation) because you have to understand that it is still very common that AfAm aren't called for interviews, as still seen as inferior, less educated, etc. I mean, WOMEN are STILL paid less than men for the saem work. This is no MISTAKE or CHANCE. There are people who MAKE IT SO--DELIBERATELY.

I went to an urban elementary school (my mom transferred me out before 4th grade). No one from that school, regardless of talent go into the city wide higschool. Then I met up with som eof my 3rd grade school mates in a citywide highschool. Now, if they were irght enough to go to oneof the top high schools in the state, what happened in middle school? Isn't an "A" supposed to be an "A"?

I went to a Historically Black College and University (after receiving scholarships to MIT, and UofMD) because I wanted to be around 3000 other black men who were trying to make a difference and counter the idea that we are all in jail, uneducated and/or on drugs.

While I understand and appreciate the need for AA for some people, I accpet that it has been abused from time to time (as have ALL all laws-so please get off that soap box). It kills me to hear Bush talk about it when he got inot the school he go into BECAUSE of AA--Legacy preferences IS AA.

I don't want ANY job if I get it simply becasue I am Black and thankfully I know that hasn't happened. I have risen from Teacher Aide to Asst. Principal to University Faculty Member by working my ass off to be 200% better than everyone around me. If some people want t look at me and think I am where I am because of A--fine. The sad turth is I'm here becase I am a better and harder worker and AA is just an excuse for thier mediocrity, their own beleifes that they are beter and thier own desparate atempts to continue the legacy of subjugation.
[post=333885]Quoted post[/post]​

so then Lex, your point is that since you worked hard you didn't need AA and that AA is only for those that are mediocre? I think that was my point. You have earned everything you have, and AA couldn't have helped you, good, thats the way it should be.

So is the major conflict here that there are white people who dont have to work hard to get somehwere? The problem then is that the system is unfair, there is a certain group that enjoys a preference. Is the answer then to give other undeserving people the same preference? Would that make things fair?? It might make things more "equal" but it would only encourage laziness in all. Hard work won't be rewarded, there will be no incentive to work hard.

I believe the ANSWER IS (HINT HINT, HERE IS MY SUGGESTION WHICH I HAVE PUT FORAWRD BEFORE IN CASE SOMEONE MIGHT HAVE MISSED IT AND ACCUSED ME OF NOT HAVING A SOLUTION) to do away with any sort of preference (even though i believe that would impede on individual freedom... but drastic measures you know) make it illegal to discriminate based on race or gender (i know that it is CURRENTLY illegal to do so, but i use the word make because it seems not to be enforced properly as of the moment) the way to insure that the law is being followed would be by not having quotas since they only work to encourage discrimination but by having another type of watchdog in effect. I don't know what exactly, but my only suggestion would be to have a form of written report done on hirees that can be checked to make sure that there was no discrimination or preference given, concurrently with that we should do something to improve the quality of inner city education, we need to educate minorites better in order to expect a better percentage of them to be able to compete. The reason I say "inner city" is because we are not talking about non-whites per se, we are talking of poor blacks and hispanics. Asians are a minority and they seem to do well for themselves, they own businesses and do well in school (on the whole at least in nyc. maybe you dont see them in executive board rooms wuite so often but they do have the opportunity to do well) Asians might also do well, because of stereotypes that are somewhat favorable i.e. being good in math, and also because (at least in nyc) they create their own communities where they don't have to involve themsleves with the evil white world. ok, back to the inner city.
Public education will not do it all though because a lot of the problems can be found at home, a lot of single parents and drug use, and crime and such. Crime could be taken care of by the government but the others must be dealt with by the black and hispanic communities themselves.

Another way that these things could be done andd one i am 100 percent agreeable with is the same thing that happened during the civil rights era. Remember rosa parks and the montgomery bus boycott? They got things done without legislation by hurting the bus company in the pocket. I believe that people should be FREE to discriminate on any basis however wrong that may be, and if people dont liek it then they must change it without force, but by showing them the errors of their ways. Force is anti-freedom. the only bought at the point of a gun is obedience, not aggreement. Is this view idealistic? hell fucking yes, is it realistic? hell fucking no, and I realize that. but i will not let go of my ideals only because humans are too fucked up to ever realize them, i can dream can't i?
 

GottaBigOne

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I was actually thinking about this earlier today and I wanted to clarify my position a little more.

Between my junior and senior year of high school I attended a summer college program given by the Pratt institute. The reason I heard of the program was because my teacher had given me a flier put out by the college's black alumni association. It was an offer for their scholarship for high school students to attend said program. The flier stated that the scholarship was only open to entrants that were "african american." I am not african american but I applied because after "african american" it said in parenthesis this includes latinos. Now while this can be seen as highly offensive to latinos, it is not my point. needless to say I won the scholarship and after having the black alums call me into their office to check to make sure I wasn't white, they gladly paid for me to attend the program. (Here's a secret: Since I am 50% italian, 25% irish and 25% puerto rican, I am actually more white than I am latino, at least when it comes to my genes, but my skin is brown, so I am not white to the establishment at least, but again that is beside my point)
My point is this: I can't think of anyone on this board who would object to the fact that there was a scholarship that was only open to black people (Including latinos hehe), even though it is racial discrimination. While everyone's justification of this discrimination might be different we are probably all okay with it. The reason I am okay with it is because people should have the right to do wahtever they want with their money and if they only want to help black people, orindian people, or WHITE people then that should be there prerogative. The fact si that it is still racist and probably "wrong" at least in the sense that it is closed minded and stupid. Why then can't this freedom to discriminate with one's money not extend to one's business? Now if there was a scholarship that was only for whites there would be a big hoorah about it and deservedly so, but the hypocrasy is that there isnt the same when it comes to other races. History should have no bearing on this because the poor white people who "need" money for school just as badly as poor black people weren't responsible for the actions of their fathers so why take it out on them?
My basic assertion is that people should be allowed to discriminate based on race, be allowed to be racist but also be called out on it, called a bigot, discouraged from holding such beliefs. They should have the freedom to be racist whenever they want, but not the freedom from the consequences of holding such beliefs. aadn the consequences shouldn't come from the government.
 

GottaBigOne

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I would have to disagree with you on that one Chi. Should we have to tolerate those things we think are evil? Or should we try to change them (without force)? and keeping with my whole freedom kick; shouldn't we be free to choose whether or not we tolerate?
 

GottaBigOne

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Good point but I don't feel that the only problems within a society arise because of differing cultures or ancestry. Economic status plays a huge role in societal issues. I do agree however that a strict common religion would tend to keep people united although I wouldn't call that freedom. Control keeps people in line, freedom allows them to be different, deifference breeds conflict.
 

prepstudinsc

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Originally posted by Shamrock+Aug 9 2005, 07:08 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Shamrock &#064; Aug 9 2005, 07:08 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-madame_zora@Aug 10 2005, 04:27 AM
When faced with facts that counter his rhetoric, Chimera will always change his objection. He has been exposing himself for the weasel he is for months folks, you simply can&#39;t have an intelligent conversation with an ignorant person.
[post=334014]Quoted post[/post]​

Chimera is ignorant? And your constant use of "white men" this "white men" that
to describe your bitter view of society is so enlightened?
If you want to accuse Chimera of something you yourself show all the time in your
hysterical white male hating, then you are the ultimate hypocrit.
[post=334097]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]

As much as I hate to agree with Zora, she is right on this, Shamrock. Chimera has proven himself over and over and over to be closed minded and ignorant when it comes to things racial. Zora might always be spouting off about how terrible white men are about giving women, especially women of color, promotions or paying them fairly, ( I wouldn&#39;t know of such, as I am a white man) but everything she has said above is true.
 

GottaBigOne

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Originally posted by Axex+Aug 10 2005, 03:23 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Axex &#064; Aug 10 2005, 03:23 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by ChimeraTX@Aug 9 2005, 10:55 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-GottaBigOne
@Aug 9 2005, 08:45 PM
I would have to disagree with you on that one Chi. Should we have to tolerate those things we think are evil? Or should we try to change them (without force)? and keeping with my whole freedom kick; shouldn&#39;t we be free to choose whether or not we tolerate?
[post=334136]Quoted post[/post]​

I don&#39;t think anyone should tolerate that which they feel is intolerable, thus the most cohesive societies would be ones in which the citizens share a common religon, or lack thereof, culture, and ancestry. There is less chance for intolerance, thus societal fragmentation, and more freedom.
[post=334144]Quoted post[/post]​

Why is tolerance a bad thing? I don&#39;t see how you think homogeneous societies experience little or no intolerance. What about China and the Communist revolution? Even if there are shared religion, ancestry, and culture, what about social status and sexual orientation? Everyone is different and some differences affect people in a negative manners. Toleration is what makes us civilized human beings. If you can&#39;t tolerate it, remove yourself from it. No reason to harm others cause you have a problem with something or someone.
[post=334153]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]
I am not saying that tolerance is a bad thing in and of itself, but it isn&#39;t automatic. Ask yourself if you tolerate intolerance. Or if you tolerate injustice, or anything else you see as evil.
 

GottaBigOne

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Originally posted by prepstudinsc+Aug 10 2005, 03:22 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(prepstudinsc &#064; Aug 10 2005, 03:22 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by Shamrock@Aug 9 2005, 07:08 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-madame_zora
@Aug 10 2005, 04:27 AM
When faced with facts that counter his rhetoric, Chimera will always change his objection. He has been exposing himself for the weasel he is for months folks, you simply can&#39;t have an intelligent conversation with an ignorant person.
[post=334014]Quoted post[/post]​


Chimera is ignorant? And your constant use of "white men" this "white men" that
to describe your bitter view of society is so enlightened?
If you want to accuse Chimera of something you yourself show all the time in your
hysterical white male hating, then you are the ultimate hypocrit.
[post=334097]Quoted post[/post]​

As much as I hate to agree with Zora, she is right on this, Shamrock. Chimera has proven himself over and over and over to be closed minded and ignorant when it comes to things racial. Zora might always be spouting off about how terrible white men are about giving women, especially women of color, promotions or paying them fairly, ( I wouldn&#39;t know of such, as I am a white man) but everything she has said above is true.
[post=334152]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]
I don&#39;t think shamrock was saying that Jana was wrong about her assesment of Chimera, only that he was pointing out the hypocrasy of her own views and statements about "the white man" and "rednecks" and such.
 

prepstudinsc

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Originally posted by Lex@Aug 9 2005, 07:34 PM
PrepStud--thanks for adding your personal experience and perspective on the HBCU issue. It was refreshing to hear an "outsider" who "gets it." HUGS.
[post=334114]Quoted post[/post]​
Lex-you&#39;re welcome. I&#39;ve gone to Hampton several times for conferences. I know faculty there. I know alumni there, I know current students there. I know Morehouse and Spellman faculty, and know alumni from most of the hbcu&#39;s around the country. Because I work in a predominantly Black church, I&#39;m around people who went to the schools and since there is one down the street from my church, I know faculty/administration there. I have even done some work in the music department there. Many of the music students there know me, so if I go to campus, they&#39;ll yell across the lawn to me to say hello. They don&#39;t care that I&#39;m not Black, they are glad that I&#39;m there to play for their class. It&#39;s encouraging to see what the hbcu&#39;s are turning out--many fine students are being graduated and finding their way into the workforce. There are always going to be the few who are goofs that flounder around, but many are out there teaching a new generation of children, some are starting businesses and revitalizing industries, others are getting into government and politics. I&#39;m glad that people see the need to keep the schools alive, I&#39;m sorry that Chimera doesn&#39;t understand the history behind them or how good the educational programs at some of the schools are&#33;
 

madame_zora

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Well, I thought I&#39;d made my stance clear enough, but here goes again. I don&#39;t dislike white men&#33; I married three of them for pete&#39;s sake, and I date them more frequently than those of other races. Here&#39;s the rub- overrepresentation in government and positions of authority. Across the board, whole population, women outnumber men. Fact. There is a certain percentage of men of African decent, Asian, Middle Eastern, native American, Australian, and the like. Without looking up figures, whilte males may only make up about 25% of the total population, but they occupy over 80% of the positions in government and higher ranks in major companies. Therefore, to assert that THEIR interests are not being looked after is absurd&#33; For a white male to then argue (like Chimera) that it is HE who is being mistreated is annoying because of it&#39;s intense stupidity. SLOWLY as more people of different ethnicities and women join government and earn positions of power, things are changing, but it is just absolutley stupid to say we&#39;ve arrived.

Now, GBO, I do understand what you&#39;re saying about asserting that AA is insulting to blacks, but consider this- the current situation is just as insulting to whites&#33; It always has been. I have worked with white men who resent this fact, they know very well that they can suit up and get hired anywhere whether they are qualified or not, it&#39;s not a great feeling. One guy told me he trembles in fear when he sees a black man or a woman doing the same job he does because he knows they must be sharp as hell to even be there in the first place, and will likely be very tough competition&#33; He&#39;s right.

Yeah, Lex is an exception. I am an exception- are you then asserting that only exceptional people deserve to eat? I am not&#33; Many average people of all races have families and responsibilities to attend to. Many who could build automobiles, drive trucks, make pizzas, operate telephones- do any number of things that would be more productive than drawing a government check will not be afforded the opportunity to do so because we STILL have a disproportionate number of people in positions of authority who are not enlightened enough to see them as human being with needs the same as their own. I DISLIKE GREEDY WHITE MEN WHO WON&#39;T SHARE THE PIE&#33; Slowly, things are changing, mainly because of exceptional people like Rosa Parks, and bitches like me who just won&#39;t go away, but at the same time I am able to work 16 hour days to get my share, there are 100 other women who also need to eat who could not do that. There are also 100 guys who will never understand how much this sucks because they can get jobs easily and don&#39;t believe that the world I live in is really that much different. They can be average, put in their 8 or 10 hour day, feel unduly taxed by it and then look down their nose at me because I complain. Well, I&#39;m fucking tired all the time, what do you expect? If I am average on a job, I stand a far greater chance of being terminated than a man does, even a black man. If I am below average, I can count on it. I know the world&#39;s not fair, you don&#39;t have to tell that to ME, but it is no surprise that every time these conversations come up, it is those in the positions of advantage saying that we should just clear the board and start from where we are now, doesn&#39;t that strike you as odd?

*sigh* I have had enough encouragement from MEN in various fields to never give up, keep fighting the good fight. Hell, I may even get a real job again at some point, who knows. All my mentors have been white men, that&#39;s who up there at the top&#33; Many of these men were very socially conscious and taught me well. Most of the attourneys I came to know in various EEO suits were men, duh- if you work in the real world at anything above minimum wage, the majority of your co-workers WILL be men, mostly white men at that. Of course they are not all bad, not even mostly, but it does seem like the ones at the very top of the pyramid are very reluctant to let anyone else up there. Just the facts, sad but true. This is where ideology breaks from reality. On an ideological level, I could agree with you, but I&#39;ve seen too much reality to have even the smallest amount of belief that anything less that constant vociferous screaming will ever make a difference. Those of us who can, must, because there are so many who simply cannot but still need to survive.

Lex, how about that backrub now, buddy? Sit your ass down and let mama go to work&#33;
 

GottaBigOne

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Madam, I know I said that I was done discussing this with you, but at least you finally stopped trying to insult me ( at least directly). When you say that people who haven&#39;t experienced the type of discrimination that you have experienced can not have any sort of worthwhile input on the subject (although you may have not said this outright, you have implied it) you are committing a logical fallacy, specifically a genetic fallacy. While it is true that someone who hasn&#39;t experienced racial dicrimination would be less able to empathize with the those that have, it does not mean they can not have valuable input. Take this conversation for example:
Dick: My house is burning&#33; My house is burning&#33; We need to throw big heavy logs on it to smother the flames&#33;
Jane: No, I think water would be a better idea, throwing wood on it will just feed the fire.
Dick: what are you talking about? Your house has never caught fire, you could not possibly have anything productive to say about housefires&#33; You just don&#39;t understand how big of a problem this really is, stop trying to preach to me&#33;

Just because I am male, and would not have the amount of problems you have had in corporate america does not mean my ideas are thus flawed. Maybe my ideas would work at a slower pace, and they probably would, but that doesn&#39;t mean that your quickfire way is okay. The only problem I have really with the whole thing is the instituting of racial quotas. If you make it mandatory to hire a certain amount of people based on race you are requiring that people use racial discrimination when hiring. I think that you and I agree that racial discrimination is wrong. Where we differ I believe is that you feel that racial discrimination against white men is justified. I find that inconsistent, and hypoctritical. Racial quotas are like throwing logs on a fire, it only adds more discrimination to the mix.

Also: Why do you assume that someone has to be a woman and a minority in order to adequatly represent you in the givernment? ISn&#39;t it racist to assume that since someone is male and white that they will automatically fuck you over? Yes, it is true that the current administration is not what you would liek it to be, but is that because they are mostly white males? It is very naive to think that if there were simply more blacks in government that they would be more agreeable to you; look at Alan Keyes. We should be more worried about whether or not our IDEAS are being represented in the senate or house, not our race. If we keep seeing it as "us" against "them" it will only breed the same sort of mentality we see manifested in Chimera, we will cleve as a country instead of pulling together.
 

GottaBigOne

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Chimera, Im gonna have to take issue with those last two statements.

First off: "Host population"??????? What exactly do you mean by host? Native americans seem to come to my mind automatically but I know you didn&#39;t mean that, you mean "merikans" of course.
Second: America has a strong national identity not because it is homogenous, or proud to be white, or whatever you may have meant. Our national identitiy can be our diversity, it is working at least in NYC. It is nearly impossible to get on a train in ny and see only one type of person, and its great.
"merika" is a result of immigration, that is our national identity, and it can be a strong, good thing. White people are not the host population, neither are blacks, or hispanics (although they are closest to being native) we are all just the population, and immigrants only add to it because they are absorped into it. Foreigners aren&#39;t even that foreign because the "merikan" culture is really a mixture of a bunch of different cultures. You really need to come hang out with me in NYC man, we can walk just three miles and you&#39;ll see "Little Italy" "China Town" "Spanish Harlem" The irish neighborhoods in "Breezy Point" the Carribean neighborhoods in the bronx, the russian neighborhoods in brooklyn, and when we wind up in central park, you&#39;ll see them all come together and intermix just fine. On your profile you said you like mexican food, and you speak spanish, so you&#39;re not xenophobic, why do you think everyone as a whole would be??
 

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Originally posted by ChimeraTX+Aug 10 2005, 06:09 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChimeraTX &#064; Aug 10 2005, 06:09 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-GottaBigOne@Aug 10 2005, 12:38 AM

First off: "Host population"??????? What exactly do you mean by host? Native americans seem to come to my mind automatically but I know you didn&#39;t mean that, you mean "merikans" of course.
[post=334190]Quoted post[/post]​
Native Americans had very little stock in the founding of this country, in fact, most avidly opposed it&#39;s formation and expansion.
[post=334201]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]
I&#39;m not certain about this, but maybe it was the whole "theft of their ancient homelands and the wholesale slaughter of their people" thing that maybe kinda turned them off the idea.
 

madame_zora

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GBO, I know I have a short fuse on some topics, such as this, but in sincerity I can tell you that I was not trying to insult you personally, but the ideas you presented before the site went down. I don&#39;t think that it&#39;s not POSSIBLE for a man to have sympathetic views to women&#39;s issues, just that they generally DON&#39;T. Once again, your ideals are fine, maybe even perfect, but they do not correspond very well with reality. I have a great deal of respect for your idealism and many times you have caused me to think more consicely about my own ideals. This I find valuable, but there is a point at which reality overtakes my desire to converse hypothetically, I hope you understand the difference.

You asked me why I assume that greater representation would give minorities better circumstances, well that&#39;s because that&#39;s how it&#39;s HAPPENED. One can&#39;t really deny what&#39;s already in the past. It&#39;s already recorded in the annals of time, there is really no logical argument against it. It&#39;s not really an "us against them" situation, it&#39;s more that many of the men in power need "permission" for lack of a better word to do the right thing. We were talking about exceptions earlier, well not every white male is exceptional either&#33; Exceptional means perhaps the top 5 or 10 percent, that still leaves the vast majority of people with a long way to go. Logically, most minorities, women, men of all races, fall into a more average category and will be more likely to just follow the status quo unless they feel safe that their own livelihoods will not be threatened if they take a stand out against the pack. Minorities have less, so they have less to lose by standing up for their own rights. Nobody cares about your money more than you do, right? So the same is true of rights. There can never be equality without representation, the entire history of the world proves that.

By the way, what have I ever suggested that was so radical? I haven&#39;t suggested implementing NEW laws, only enforcing the ones we have. Isn&#39;t that what you said as well? I don&#39;t really see myself as a radical. I pointed out that in the real world, in my own personal experience, it was very rare that the laws were being observed, and I suggested ways of monitoring employment practices to see that they were observed, that doesn&#39;t seem radical to me, just common sense. I don&#39;t advocate a free ride for anyone, only holding people&#39;s feet to the fire to do what our country has already decided it wants us to do. This should be over and done with by now, my frustration is mainly that it is NOT over, and we are still arguing the merits of respecting each other&#39;s rights.

You seem to be advocating very similar ideas as mine, only "not by force", but when has ANY change come about by any other means? Gandhi got labeled by the press as heading a movement of "passive resistance", but he would be the first to say he never advocated anything passive&#33; He advocated agressive, non-violent non-compliance. He was a mastermind at utilizing the press to expose the evils of the British army at their worst and got it published around the world for all to see. Once people knew, really KNEW what was going on there, the shame was so great that they had no choice but to leave or risk worldwide humiliation. I am certainly suggesting something far less radical than that&#33; Even Chimera points out that no one would voluntarily surrender a position of priveledge, that seems obvious. I understand the resistance of men in power to give it up, but give it up they will. I have a vested interest in seeing it happen in my lifetime- it&#39;s MY life, not yours, that will be affected. It&#39;s my daughter&#39;s life as well. Honestly, as one human being to another, have you no compassion?

I DO NOT advocate "white guilt" although Chimera has tacked that on me several times. Guilt is a wasted emotion, completely useless. It doesn&#39;t help me at all for anyone to feel bad, that&#39;s pure bullshit. I have only EVER stood up for admission of reality, acceptance that what has been done, has been done. If we disagree with it now, we are obligated to make a new decision based on this information. Throwing our hands up in the air and saying "oops" doesn&#39;t cut it. If I found out my friend stole your bike, but I didn&#39;t find out until years later, I wouldn&#39;t owe you a new bike, but as a human being, I would probably take an above average interest in seeing that you had a way to get around. I didn&#39;t do the wrong, nor am I responsible for it, but I do care that you&#39;re okay. That&#39;s all I am suggesting in this situation. Sadly, most people wouldn&#39;t care that you were okay unless it was their legal obligation to care. As a hiring employer, I would NEVER pass over a qualified white man in preference of a woman or black man, but I would look for qualified women and minorities, whenever possible. Why? Because they worked their asses off. They were so happy to be given a chance, they had something to prove to me. The three promotions I made were (in this order) a white man, a white woman and a black man. All were exceptional workers, all were promoted on merit. The differnce was I had to go to the batting cages to get approval to promote the second two. It was bullshit. All three of them were at the top of the ranks in sales at the times of their respective promotions, and this was within a company that was far above average at hiring practices. They STILL didn&#39;t want "those people" climbing to the top&#33; Funny, it was a brown woman who fought for their rights. Get my point here? Fortunately I had a great ally in my immediate supervisor who had hired me, and his word was gold so he made sure I got what I wanted. If not for him, my experiences would have been quite different, but even HE would not have done this on his own. We had a love-hate realtionship. He trained me to sell, so he got to brag about my success "even though I was a girl". I had to threaten to quit all the time to get him to give in to my wishes, and he didn&#39;t want to lose his bragging rights, so he did it. After a while it became more of a game than an actual threat, but the first few times, I had to be honestly ready to give it all up to stand up for what I believed in. Most people will never do that. I always had my costume business to fall back on if I needed fast cash.

You make me miss New York. I think that place has got it right better than anyplace else in the country, but there is also a lot of racial convergence in Chicago, LA, and most of the major cities I&#39;ve spent time in. The thing is, only about 40% of our population lives in major metropolitan areas, the rest are in smaller towns who are not doing nearly so well&#33; I think perhaps your feeling that enough correction has taken place may be in part because of the situation in your hometown. Believe me, I can appreciate this. Being from Cincinnati, which is far smaller but still a city, I didn&#39;t really know how bad things were elsewhere until I had to live in Coshocton Ohio, Bowling Green Kentucky, and Parkersburg West Virginia. Minority there still means "nigger" and they don&#39;t mind telling you so. It&#39;s harder to be the bigger person in a place like that. "Why aren&#39;t you home baking brownies?" is an acceptable way to address a woman professional in some places. I doubt YOU&#39;D be passive about that either.
 

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Originally posted by Dr Rock+Aug 10 2005, 03:06 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr Rock &#064; Aug 10 2005, 03:06 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by ChimeraTX@Aug 10 2005, 06:09 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-GottaBigOne
@Aug 10 2005, 12:38 AM

First off: "Host population"??????? What exactly do you mean by host? Native americans seem to come to my mind automatically but I know you didn&#39;t mean that, you mean "merikans" of course.
[post=334190]Quoted post[/post]​

Native Americans had very little stock in the founding of this country, in fact, most avidly opposed it&#39;s formation and expansion.
[post=334201]Quoted post[/post]​
I&#39;m not certain about this, but maybe it was the whole "theft of their ancient homelands and the wholesale slaughter of their people" thing that maybe kinda turned them off the idea.
[post=334210]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]


Yet ANOTHER fine example of Chimera being ignorant. Calling WASP&#39;s the host population of America is one of the most racist things I have read in this thread. Native Americans had THEIR land TAKEN From them. JESUS.

I especially love how he ignores all the salient points that anyone makes and simply responds to what he agrees with. Am I senseing a pattern here?


Zora--I&#39;m waiting babe. I&#39;ll rub you afterward.
*takes off his shirt and lays down*
 

GottaBigOne

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Madam, when i say that it shouldn&#39;t be done by force i am talking about force from the government. As I said before I am in favor of it happening by way of boycotts or passive resistance. I am not saying that nothing should done, please stop telling me that I dont see a fucking problem, its really arrogant.
 

madame_zora

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Originally posted by GottaBigOne@Aug 10 2005, 12:23 PM
Madam, when i say that it shouldn&#39;t be done by force i am talking about force from the government. As I said before I am in favor of it happening by way of boycotts or passive resistance. I am not saying that nothing should done, please stop telling me that I dont see a fucking problem, its really arrogant.
[post=334231]Quoted post[/post]​


Okay, well I never claimed I wasn&#39;t arrogant, but I can definitely trace exactly where my arrogance comes from. I used to be shy and withdrawn, but after having spent many years on the workforce having to prove I was better than other people just to be accepted as equal, I got arrogant. I can now go into a job interview in jeans and a t-shirt carrying a cup of coffee and know that my prospective employer will be wetting his pants to hire me- yeah, I&#39;m arrogant. I&#39;ve put my time and effort into helping to affect these social changes, I think I have to right to be proud of that.

What you are suggesting is that only the people who are willing to sweat and bleed to be considered equal to YOU should be rewarded, you think THAT&#39;S not arrogant? You&#39;ve said you realise that your way would take much longer, I guess you&#39;re okay with the idea of several more generations having to live in degredation, I am not.

I know very well that being my color is far less of an inhibiting factor to me than if I were darker, because I&#39;m not "that black". Racially, I have very few problems unless I&#39;m in a small town, but I&#39;m a woman everywhere I go. Having experienced this, I can easily understand how it feels to be black everywhere you go and I empathise with that situation having seen my small share of it. I reject social notions that it really isn&#39;t that hard for them, because I KNOW it&#39;s bullshit.

Anyway, boycotting and "passive" resistance have only led the government to change laws, so it still comes back to that in the end. All your suggestions would do is SLOW DOWN PROGRESS&#33; And for what? So that the people in positions of advantage would have longer to get used to the idea? I&#39;m sorry, but your rights to feel comfortable don&#39;t supercede my rights to earn an income.
 

jonb

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Originally posted by Lex@Aug 10 2005, 01:23 AM
Yet ANOTHER fine example of Chimera being ignorant. Calling WASP&#39;s the host population of America is one of the most racist things I have read in this thread. Native Americans had THEIR land TAKEN From them. JESUS.
[post=334219]Quoted post[/post]​
Yep. All in the name of Jesus.
 

GottaBigOne

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Originally posted by madame_zora+Aug 10 2005, 05:03 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madame_zora &#064; Aug 10 2005, 05:03 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-GottaBigOne@Aug 10 2005, 12:23 PM
Madam, when i say that it shouldn&#39;t be done by force i am talking about force from the government. As I said before I am in favor of it happening by way of boycotts or passive resistance. I am not saying that nothing should done, please stop telling me that I dont see a fucking problem, its really arrogant.
[post=334231]Quoted post[/post]​


Okay, well I never claimed I wasn&#39;t arrogant, but I can definitely trace exactly where my arrogance comes from. I used to be shy and withdrawn, but after having spent many years on the workforce having to prove I was better than other people just to be accepted as equal, I got arrogant. I can now go into a job interview in jeans and a t-shirt carrying a cup of coffee and know that my prospective employer will be wetting his pants to hire me- yeah, I&#39;m arrogant. I&#39;ve put my time and effort into helping to affect these social changes, I think I have to right to be proud of that.

What you are suggesting is that only the people who are willing to sweat and bleed to be considered equal to YOU should be rewarded, you think THAT&#39;S not arrogant? You&#39;ve said you realise that your way would take much longer, I guess you&#39;re okay with the idea of several more generations having to live in degredation, I am not.

I know very well that being my color is far less of an inhibiting factor to me than if I were darker, because I&#39;m not "that black". Racially, I have very few problems unless I&#39;m in a small town, but I&#39;m a woman everywhere I go. Having experienced this, I can easily understand how it feels to be black everywhere you go and I empathise with that situation having seen my small share of it. I reject social notions that it really isn&#39;t that hard for them, because I KNOW it&#39;s bullshit.

Anyway, boycotting and "passive" resistance have only led the government to change laws, so it still comes back to that in the end. All your suggestions would do is SLOW DOWN PROGRESS&#33; And for what? So that the people in positions of advantage would have longer to get used to the idea? I&#39;m sorry, but your rights to feel comfortable don&#39;t supercede my rights to earn an income.
[post=334298]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]
Why are you all of sudden making me the problem? Because I am male? AM I automatically at fault for the things you experienced in your past? I believe thats called generalization. I don&#39;t think only those that word extra hard should get rewarded, we are on the smae side Zora&#33;&#33;&#33; the thing I am against is those that haven&#39;t earned it getting rewarded, haven&#39;t I been fucking clear on this????

And anyway, does anybody really have a "right" to earn an income, or the right to the OPPORTUNITY to earn an income. Do I have a right to be the ceo of a huge company? No, I dont think so. Corporate america is not the only way to earn an income, working for someone else is not the only way to earn an income and its probably not the best way either. Starting your own business is probably the best way to make a lot of money and you wont have to deal with not getting promoted because you&#39;re your own boss. You found this out yourself Jana, isnt working on your own terms great?
 

KinkGuy

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Originally posted by ChimeraTX+Aug 10 2005, 04:00 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChimeraTX &#064; Aug 10 2005, 04:00 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-jonb@Aug 10 2005, 04:23 PM
Yep. All in the name of Jesus.
[post=334345]Quoted post[/post]​
The three g&#39;s, right?

GOLD&#33;, God&#33;, and... glory.
[post=334359]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]

Take off on the NeoCon "Three G&#39;s" there Chimera? The right wing extremist mantra was, and I quote from the most admirable mr. bill frist....."We can get anyone elected, to any office, anywhere when we invoke the three G&#39;s, God, Guns and gays."