Race, Sexual Desire, and Politcal Consciouness

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by B_cricketsliar, Oct 17, 2005.

  1. B_cricketsliar

    B_cricketsliar New Member

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    I'd like to ask people to think about the intersection of Race, Sexual Desire, and Political Consciouness. Can you think of any examples where this intersection may result in a Cultural/Sexual Taboo? For example, Black Gay Men and Sexual Bondage, or Black Women and Sexual Bondage- can we enjoy this as sexual act, or is it too remiscent of slavery to fantasize about?
     
  2. Dorset

    Dorset New Member

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    Depends where you're from

    I'm from England and we haven't had much slavery here for a couple of thousand years so we're not so sensitive about it (Bloody Vikings, come over here, rape our women!!!)

    Can I take a guess that you're from South Africa?
    That's the only Cricket playing nation that I can think of that still has such strong Black-White tensions
     
  3. B_cricketsliar

    B_cricketsliar New Member

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    No, I'm Not From South-Africa.

    Even for many sexually "liberated" African-American/Black Peoples today, the notion of experimenting with S/M, on a interracial basis, seems to conjur up a history of physical abuse associated with things like whipping during slavery. So As a Black Gay Man, you could conceivable be turned on by a fantasy of Interracial domination, but not try it since it echoes many aspects of the relationship between White/Blacks during slavery.
     
  4. DC_DEEP

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    What an odd question. Among those I know in the BdSm community, race generally is not a consideration - what does matter is that activities are safe, sane, and consensual. And yes, I do know MANY, from all backgrounds: people from many and varied racial, financial, cultural, and national origins, gay and straight, male and female. For the most part, most of them play well together. Common interests are more important than skin color or religious beliefs or even to some degree, gender.

    I suppose there are some who look for non-existent correlations and metaphors. The black men with whom I have engaged in bondage play were more interested in the sensation of the bondage, rather than focusing upon what it may have been like for a slave 200 years ago to be tied to a whipping post.
     
  5. jonb

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    As a rule, don't bring race into the bedroom solely for its own sake.
     
  6. BobLeeSwagger

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    I can see why you would say that, but at the same time, it's easy for you to say. England has its own history of brutalizing various brown-skinned people around the world. The descendents of those people would probably say that that lack of sensitivity was part of the problem.

    I don't say that to accuse you personally of anything. I could say that all of my ancestors came to the United States after slavery was abolished, so I have no responsibility at all for the slavery era. That would be true, but it's not really the point. We inherit that history collectively, but can only deal with it individually.
     
  7. Dorset

    Dorset New Member

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    First of all where did your ancestors come from? Their's not a country on earth that hasn't had a brutal history at some point!

    And secondly why do we have to deal with things individually? I've never been brutal to anyone so I don't care if I come across as distant to it. I am not responsible for anything bad that my country has done hundreds of years ago. By the way though, most of our former colonies are still very close to us and some still request visits from our Queen. If we were always so brutal then why would they love us so much?

    Oh yeah, and while I'm on a rant, it might be true that America used slaves but a peice of history that is swept under the carpet is that most slave traders in Africa were Black locals. You won't see that on 'black history month' on MTV I bet!
     
  8. DC_DEEP

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    Very good points, Dorset. It smacks just a bit of the old biblical concept of "the sins of the father" being carried down seven generations. It is ludicrous. Reminds me a bit of the ideas bounced around for a while, a couple of years back, with some individuals asserting that every black person in america receive monetary compensation for the wrongs committed against their great great great grandfathers. It was just so stupid - my comment was always "I never owned a slave, you were never a slave, why should I pay you compensation for slavery?"

    It is just a trend (always been around, but more prevalent now) for people to blame all problems on other people. IMHO, the only time one person can be responsible for the actions of another is a parent who should take responsibility for the actions of their young children.

    I have had sexual interaction with people of races other than my own; but I don't go into it with the "Mandingo complex" and their race is not relevant to our activities.
     
  9. Dr. Dilznick

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    All that it is, is a plea for acknowledgement from whites. Still crying for the scraps off the massa's table. It's disgusting.
     
  10. DC_DEEP

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    A plea for acknowledgement, a perceived opportunity to blame their own problems on other people, an attempt to get something for nothing - it doesn't matter, I agree, it is disgusting. How about we all take responsibility for our own problems, actions, and accomplishments? I don't really care about race or religion; as long as someone is intelligent, thinks independently, and basically practices the "golden rule," they are fine by me. Don't ask for anything you have not earned, don't expect rights you are unwilling to extend to others, don't demand respect you are not willing to give... but that's too much to ask, eh?
     
  11. B_cricketsliar

    B_cricketsliar New Member

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    What an odd question. Among those I know in the BdSm community, race generally is not a consideration - what does matter is that activities are safe, sane, and consensual. And yes, I do know MANY, from all backgrounds: people from many and varied racial, financial, cultural, and national origins, gay and straight, male and female. For the most part, most of them play well together. Common interests are more important than skin color or religious beliefs or even to some degree, gender.

    I suppose there are some who look for non-existent correlations and metaphors. The black men with whom I have engaged in bondage play were more interested in the sensation of the bondage, rather than focusing upon what it may have been like for a slave 200 years ago to be tied to a whipping post.
    [post=352641]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/b][/quote]

    From your standpoint, there may be a non-existent correlation between being African-American/Black, and experimenting in Interracial S/M. However, being African-American, and having dealt with an innumerable variation of Black peoples from differing socio-economic, religious, gender, and regional perspectives I can safely say that S/M participation is not minimally embraced as an sexual practice. I agree that some African-American/Blacks may discretly participate in BD-S/M within the contexts of a Intra-Racial Relationship. But in terms of a Interracial Black/White relationship, there is more often, than not a reluctance to engage in sexual play which is visually reminiscent of Slave Time Torture. This is not to suggest that African-American/Blacks do not fantasize about participating in BD-S/M in sorts of contexts with all sort of people. However, there is frequently a disconnect between this fantasy, and actual participation which I believe articulates itself as politcal consciousness.

    I'm very interested to know of any other cultural examples, if people have them?
     
  12. Dr. Dilznick

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    On point. I've certainly heard most of these kinds of sentiments directed towards blacks by blacks as well (i.e. "giving back" to the (black) community).

    Like Larry Elder says, does the fact that I'm successful and you're not (be it due to chance, luck, hard work, or any other combination of factors) make you entitled to what I have? Not "it would be nice if you'd share," which is true, but does it make anyone else entitled to it? Of course not. To believe so is absurd.
     
  13. B_cricketsliar

    B_cricketsliar New Member

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    First of all where did your ancestors come from? Their's not a country on earth that hasn't had a brutal history at some point!

    And secondly why do we have to deal with things individually? I've never been brutal to anyone so I don't care if I come across as distant to it. I am not responsible for anything bad that my country has done hundreds of years ago. By the way though, most of our former colonies are still very close to us and some still request visits from our Queen. If we were always so brutal then why would they love us so much?

    Oh yeah, and while I'm on a rant, it might be true that America used slaves but a peice of history that is swept under the carpet is that most slave traders in Africa were Black locals. You won't see that on 'black history month' on MTV I bet!
    [post=352833]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/b][/quote]

    The purpose of this thread was not to personally indict anyone of racism. Nor, did I intend to imply that I support the argument that the descendants of White Slaveholders, are responsible for their ancestor's actions. Also, I was not asking a question regarding peoples views on African-American/Black reparations.

    My point in this thread, was to ask a question regarding the intersection of Race, Sexual Desire, and Political Consciouness. What I wanted was to ellicit a discussion about existing SEXUAL TABOOS in various Communities that may originate from their Racial, Ethnic, and or Cultural Identity. I also wanted to ask if the expression of some SEXUAL DESIRES are complicated, or even proscribed by an individuals politics.
     
  14. DC_DEEP

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    I thought I understood your point in the thread, but perhaps we are misunderstanding one another's posts.

    I AM actually very active in the bdsm community; I am a member of a well-known organization based in Chicago, and attend events throughout the year. My partner and I are active in mentoring and awareness programs.

    One event, in particular, that we attend every year is sponsored by our Chicago club, and is conducted in two "sessions," comprising one full week. It is held in a closed environment (we reserve the entire grounds of a motel/resort, cordon off the perimeter, and have security) and there are about 250 men per session - we always go for both, the full week.

    The event is members and invited & approved guests only, so we try to ensure that only men of quality are registered. In my 5 years of attending this event, there have been attendees of almost any background you can imagine. Men from many countries also attend. I have had experiences with whites, latinos, blacks, chinese, japanese, navajo, christians, jews, buddhists, atheists, old, young, fat, skinny - literally, all types. Perhaps the reason I have not experienced what you are talking about is that it is just not an issue with me, and perhaps I seek out others for whom it is not an issue. Yes, I have restrained and flogged more than one black man. If they identified the experience with slavery on some level, they did NOT relate that to me. I certainly had no fantasy of Slave Time Torture going on with an African-American person than I did with a white person or a japanese person. When playing with my Navajo friend, I didn't have a "cowboys & indians" thing going on, either. All of this is going on in a "less than public, but in no way discrete" setting. There may be onlookers, perhaps LOTS of them, but they are all kindred spirits.

    Perhaps with those who have little or no experience with bdsm, the outward trappings distract them from what bdsm is really all about. It is NOT about the actual bondage or flogging or tactile play or whatever the act itself. It IS all about the EXCHANGE of energies. It is about examining yourself, your fears, your limits, and becoming a better person for your self-examination.

    I never engage in these types of activities without first doing some negotiation, finding out about the person and what they desire, and what they expect to get out of a session. While every person is different, I have never come across the type of mindset you describe. If I did, I would probably decline. There is a sub-set of the bdsm community with interest in humiliation, but that is a scene in which I have zero interest. Perhaps the slavery-imagery folks are in that subset, and that is why I have no experience with them.

    So, to try to sum up an answer to your question: I do have CONSIDERABLE experience in the area, but have not experienced the taboo thing you asked about, regardless of the race or religion or country of origin of the person with whom I am having the experience. I am not saying it does not exist, just that in the bdsm community at large, it must be a tiny fraction of the community.

    Out of curiosity, do you have a personal interest in bdsm, did this thread evolve out of conversations with your friends, or was there some other reason you thought & asked about it? I'm fairly well-connected, and could either answer further questions directly, or direct you to a "minority" friend...

    PEACE!
     
  15. B_cricketsliar

    B_cricketsliar New Member

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    Out of curiosity, do you have a personal interest in bdsm, did this thread evolve out of conversations with your friends, or was there some other reason you thought & asked about it? I'm fairly well-connected, and could either answer further questions directly, or direct you to a "minority" friend...


    "Minor" people don't interest me.
     
  16. B_cricketsliar

    B_cricketsliar New Member

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    I thought I understood your point in the thread, but perhaps we are misunderstanding one another's posts.

    I AM actually very active in the bdsm community; I am a member of a well-known organization based in Chicago, and attend events throughout the year. My partner and I are active in mentoring and awareness programs.

    One event, in particular, that we attend every year is sponsored by our Chicago club, and is conducted in two "sessions," comprising one full week. It is held in a closed environment (we reserve the entire grounds of a motel/resort, cordon off the perimeter, and have security) and there are about 250 men per session - we always go for both, the full week.

    The event is members and invited & approved guests only, so we try to ensure that only men of quality are registered. In my 5 years of attending this event, there have been attendees of almost any background you can imagine. Men from many countries also attend. I have had experiences with whites, latinos, blacks, chinese, japanese, navajo, christians, jews, buddhists, atheists, old, young, fat, skinny - literally, all types. Perhaps the reason I have not experienced what you are talking about is that it is just not an issue with me, and perhaps I seek out others for whom it is not an issue. Yes, I have restrained and flogged more than one black man. If they identified the experience with slavery on some level, they did NOT relate that to me. I certainly had no fantasy of Slave Time Torture going on with an African-American person than I did with a white person or a japanese person. When playing with my Navajo friend, I didn't have a "cowboys & indians" thing going on, either. All of this is going on in a "less than public, but in no way discrete" setting. There may be onlookers, perhaps LOTS of them, but they are all kindred spirits.

    Perhaps with those who have little or no experience with bdsm, the outward trappings distract them from what bdsm is really all about. It is NOT about the actual bondage or flogging or tactile play or whatever the act itself. It IS all about the EXCHANGE of energies. It is about examining yourself, your fears, your limits, and becoming a better person for your self-examination.

    I never engage in these types of activities without first doing some negotiation, finding out about the person and what they desire, and what they expect to get out of a session. While every person is different, I have never come across the type of mindset you describe. If I did, I would probably decline. There is a sub-set of the bdsm community with interest in humiliation, but that is a scene in which I have zero interest. Perhaps the slavery-imagery folks are in that subset, and that is why I have no experience with them.

    So, to try to sum up an answer to your question: I do have CONSIDERABLE experience in the area, but have not experienced the taboo thing you asked about, regardless of the race or religion or country of origin of the person with whom I am having the experience. I am not saying it does not exist, just that in the bdsm community at large, it must be a tiny fraction of the community.

    Out of curiosity, do you have a personal interest in bdsm, did this thread evolve out of conversations with your friends, or was there some other reason you thought & asked about it? I'm fairly well-connected, and could either answer further questions directly, or direct you to a "minority" friend...

    PEACE!
    [post=352992]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/b][/quote]


    You have the advantage of belonging to a community which already assumes the acceptability of BD/SM. In reference to this thread, that was not necessarily my starting point. While I agree that there may be considerable African-American/Black people who participate in the event that you described in your post, that does not support a conclusion that a "majority" of open-minded African-American/Black people embrace BD/SM openly as a sexual practice, or would condone it in terms of an Interracial relationship.

    I'm curious about something, does that rape scene in Pulp Fiction turn you on?
     
  17. DC_DEEP

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    Interesting, although I don't know what exactly it means.

    <!--QuoteBegin-cricketsliar
    @Oct 18 2005, 08:24 PM

    You have the advantage of belonging to a community which already assumes the acceptability of BD/SM. In reference to this thread, that was not necessarily my starting point. While I agree that there may be considerable African-American/Black people who participate in the event that you described in your post, that does not support a conclusion that a "majority" of open-minded African-American/Black people embrace BD/SM openly as a sexual practice, or would condone it in terms of an Interracial relationship.

    I&#39;m curious about something, does that rape scene in Pulp Fiction turn you on?
    [post=353025]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/quote]
    I do perhaps have an advantage, but it is not one I was born with, it was one I cultivated, regardless of the opinions and perceptions of others.

    I will spell out, very succinctly if I am able, precisely what I understood to be your starting point in this thread; correct me, please, if I am STILL wrong...

    I understood your question to be "is African-American involvement in the context of bondage one that is perceived by either participant as taboo, perhaps somewhat representative of practices that may have existed during the era of slavery in the US, and how does that relate to sexual desire and political consciousness?" Is that a fair understanding? If not, please clarify it for me. If so, what I am trying to get across to you is that in my experience, which is not minimal, that is just not the case. I cannot speak for the "majority" of open-minded African-American/Black people as to their embracing of sexual practices, I can only address the majority of black gay males within the bdsm community whom I have met. Among those whom I know, the taboo aspect of bondage is not an issue. I do actually know more than just a few of them, my sample population is not insignificant.

    And to answer your question, no, rape scenes in any depiction including Pulp Fiction, do not turn me on - where the fuck did that come from? The motto of any credible bdsm practitioner is "Safe, Sane, and Consensual." Rape is not consensual, I find it to be especially revolting. You have a lot to learn.
     
  18. Dorset

    Dorset New Member

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    I did understand the purpose of the thread and the original point I tried to make was that the idea of a social taboo in any area of sex is purely in the minds of the participants. They are just what you think others are thinking, the truth is that just about nobody cares who you&#39;re shagging

    I find it hard to imagine any racial combination that hasn&#39;t yet been seen or any sexual scenario that hasn&#39;t been over exposed on the internet already
     
  19. B_cricketsliar

    B_cricketsliar New Member

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    I do perhaps have an advantage, but it is not one I was born with, it was one I cultivated, regardless of the opinions and perceptions of others.

    I will spell out, very succinctly if I am able, precisely what I understood to be your starting point in this thread; correct me, please, if I am STILL wrong...

    I understood your question to be "is African-American involvement in the context of bondage one that is perceived by either participant as taboo, perhaps somewhat representative of practices that may have existed during the era of slavery in the US, and how does that relate to sexual desire and political consciousness?" Is that a fair understanding? If not, please clarify it for me. If so, what I am trying to get across to you is that in my experience, which is not minimal, that is just not the case. I cannot speak for the "majority" of open-minded African-American/Black people as to their embracing of sexual practices, I can only address the majority of black gay males within the bdsm community whom I have met. Among those whom I know, the taboo aspect of bondage is not an issue. I do actually know more than just a few of them, my sample population is not insignificant.

    And to answer your question, no, rape scenes in any depiction including Pulp Fiction, do not turn me on - where the fuck did that come from? The motto of any credible bdsm practitioner is "Safe, Sane, and Consensual." Rape is not consensual, I find it to be especially revolting. You have a lot to learn.
    [post=353034]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/b][/quote]

    Obviously, you&#39;re a BD/SM loyalist so i&#39;ll try very hard not to offend the sensibilities of your community. But, you must know that many African-American/Black people who consider themselves to be Sexually Progessive, and down for trying all manner of freaky things are revolted at the sight of a Middle-Aged White Man decked out in Black Leather, and Chains Whipping a Black Male- even if it is consensual. Perhaps you fail to see that point because your are unable to acknowledge that many African-American/Black PREJUDGE the BD/SM as RACIST. If your sample were truly significant, you would have been more familiar with this point.
     
  20. DC_DEEP

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    Obviously, you&#39;re a BD/SM loyalist so i&#39;ll try very hard not to offend the sensibilities of your community. But, you must know that many African-American/Black people who consider themselves to be Sexually Progessive, and down for trying all manner of freaky things are revolted at the sight of a Middle-Aged White Man decked out in Black Leather, and Chains Whipping a Black Male- even if it is consensual. Perhaps you fail to see that point because your are unable to acknowledge that many African-American/Black PREJUDGE the BD/SM as RACIST. If your sample were truly significant, you would have been more familiar with this point.
    [post=353282]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/b][/quote]
    You still did not answer: how did you bring a rape question into this?

    I may perhaps be a loyalist, but you will not offend my sensibilities by asking questions. It is not that I am unable to acknowledge that many people of any race prejudge BdSm as unappealing, I just have not come across what you describe. My sample size is about 50 or so individuals. No, it isn&#39;t the entire Negro race. Your example is a middle age white man whipping a (non-specific age?) black male. Would you find it as revolting if the roles were reversed? A young black buck whipping an old white man? I&#39;m sorry you have this prejudice, I&#39;m sorry that it causes you such angst. I guess I have just been lucky that the men I have dealt with in this area, regardless of race or age or size, are more open-minded and have moved beyond all that bitterness. If your preconception of BdSm is only white men whipping black men, and you have no interest in learning otherwise, then by all means that is your right. Please don&#39;t accuse anyone who does have an interest of being racist. Simply because you and all your friends have that perception, that does not make it universal. Psychologists call your assertion "projection."
     
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