Race wars and white supremacy terrorism in the us

jaap_stam

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BLM isn't perfect but they are being noticed. Without making noise would there be any mention of the numerous examples of police injustices? At least the idea that someone is watching might give them pause before they act. Gay rights would not have progressed as it had were it not for those who decided to fight back at Stonewall. The Mattachine Society thought the way to advance was to fit in and not draw attention to differences. Is BLM supposed to follow that example?

I don't disagree with you in a broad sense. And of course, I'm not suggesting people just take poor outcomes lying down.

However, Cliven Bundy and gang are also "making noise." UKIP is making noise. All sorts of people with lots of opinions but nothing to say are making noise. In this day and age of instant information dissemination, any asshole with a keyboard and a bunch of friends can "make noise" - but the problem isn't the noise, it's the who is listening? The people actually making decisions aren't including people of BLM at the big kids table when it's time to actually make decisions. That's where I'm saying that influencing key people under the radar is a much more effective strategy.
 

jaap_stam

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What does it mean? What tangible outcomes? Look it up. Kind of early to be making judgements on their success or failure, I think. Certainly too early to write them off wholesale as "just a waste of time and energy" as YOU put it.

Can you point to a single piece of legislation that was directly lobbied for by BLM that has seen a tangible reduction in unjustified police violence against black citizens? I've looked it up and haven't found it. Perhaps you can help me?


Rather PRESUMPTUOUS of you to say WTF I "spend time" doing, don't you think?


The fact that you carry on about "starting conversations" as if BLM was the first group of people to figure out racism is still institutionalized strongly suggests your views on this matter are shaped more by media hype than direct experience in this particular matter. As we've seen, the introduction of anti-racist laws are only as good as the state's willingness to enforce them. And the state's willingness to enforce them is almost entirely dependent these days on the will of the various business lobbies. BLM's association with activities that are indiscriminately costly and disruptive to white and black businesses has seriously compromised their ability to gain financial support of the allies they need the most - black business owners.


You know, a lot of that sounds strikingly similar to some of that (not so well known) enmity that sometimes existed between various factions of the Civil Rights Movement of the '60's and '70's. And frankly, it comes off as rather guarded. I happen to think (as I did then) that each component/entity can have a role to play in working towards the overall goals.
Because of your personal involvement, you seem to be rather envious of the attention BLM gets, rather than being able to view them objectively. Which perhaps explains why you find them so objectionable.


Are you envious of the attention that Trump gets? BLM has essentially been using the same media-grab tactics - militant, loud, angry rhetoric, reliance on whipping crowds into an emotional frenzy. Divisive and non-constructive. And very short on depth. Many of the reasons why you find Trump objectionable, I see in BLM. It has nothing to do with jealousy, but rather the fact that they offer no evolution at all in how Americans approach uncomfortable aspects of shared racial history, how groups in opposition find common ground, how black people organize politically for the sake of driving wealth into black communities. Instead, they rely on slacktivism, social media "burns", and shit stirring to get attention...that they have no real way of translating into a coherent framework for actual empowerment. Again, just like Trump. Only instead of an angry white audience, they're preaching to angry black people.


That is quite likely to happen regardless, as a natural course of progression... the "changing of the guard" if you will. And NOT necessarily because one or the other (BLM or a "more mature organization) is the more VALID.

I don't subscribe to the idea of a natural course of progression, in part because I don't believe in an absolute right or wrong. I take more of a quantum mechanics view of political outcomes rather than a deterministic one. Hindsight allows us to create a narrative to support the inevitability of the outcome that came to be, but there are thousands of historical inflection points where people make decisions with imperfect information that may or may not align with their actual goals, and we discount just how much accidents and dumb luck play a role.
 

b.c.

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The fact that you carry on about "starting conversations" as if BLM was the first group of people to figure out racism is still institutionalized strongly suggests your views on this matter are shaped more by media hype than direct experience in this particular matter.

And there you go with the same condescending ASSuptions of what I know, what I don't, and what my views are based upon. That same s****** tripod pulled (until I put his a*** on IGNORE. Which is what I'm about to do for you too) since you choose to resort to insults.

Because frankly I have absolutely NO respect for or desire to respond to someone who's out to denigrate my intellect, or PRESUMES to know what shapes my views. So kindly f****** off with that.

I never said BLM started conversations in the sense that it's never been discussed before, champ, but CLEARLY we and others are talking about BLM and not those other groups of which you speak. And awareness is raised when people (especially those who otherwise wouldn't even KNOW) get to talking.


Again, saying BLM is "just a waste of time and energy" is SYNONYMOUS with the same things they said about the Civil Rights Movements of the 60's and 70's.

I guess all of THOSE "agitators" (as they called them) should've just STFU too.
 
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b.c.

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Oh... and in answer to this ------------ :

Can you point to a single piece of legislation that was directly lobbied for by BLM that has seen a tangible reduction in unjustified police violence against black citizens? I've looked it up and haven't found it. Perhaps you can help me?

SEE:

Ten Ways Black Lives Matter Is Already Winning

"Many of their proposals have or had already been adopted in cities and states across the country, with some even specifically crediting protests as their motivation for the changes.

Here is a sampling of some of the changes to policing we have seen in recent time that have Campaign Zero’s proposals in action."
 

StormfrontFL

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I don't disagree with you in a broad sense. And of course, I'm not suggesting people just take poor outcomes lying down.

However, Cliven Bundy and gang are also "making noise." UKIP is making noise. All sorts of people with lots of opinions but nothing to say are making noise. In this day and age of instant information dissemination, any asshole with a keyboard and a bunch of friends can "make noise" - but the problem isn't the noise, it's the who is listening? The people actually making decisions aren't including people of BLM at the big kids table when it's time to actually make decisions. That's where I'm saying that influencing key people under the radar is a much more effective strategy.
By itself BLM isn't that effective but by working with other groups they can effect change. One group protesting and another group working from within.
 

b.c.

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Like Crimson has already noted, the person who created a thread with the words "white supremacy terrorism" in its title curiously has spent the bulk of it trying to dismiss BLM "as just a waste of time and energy" to use his exact words, in effect, lending validation and support to racists and conservative critics of the movement.

True, the group (or more accurately, some associated with BLM) haven't been without their faults. But personally I find his lack of VISION appalling.

No doubt, for those hell bent on discrediting the movement, seeing such blanket condemnation of BLM as a whole must be a JOY to behold. O'Reilly MUST certainly be dancing.......... Hell, with "friends" like these.......


Btw... here are a few more opinions/observations on BLM (though admittedly not quite in keeping with the LEARNED opinion of the OP):

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...cy-agenda-is-practical-thoughtful-and-urgent/

How 'Black Lives Matter' Activists Are Shaping the 2016 Campaign - NBC News

https://www.dissentmagazine.org/onl...s-matter-minneapolis-symbolic-demands-winning
 
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Klingsor

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However, Cliven Bundy and gang are also "making noise." UKIP is making noise. All sorts of people with lots of opinions but nothing to say are making noise. In this day and age of instant information dissemination, any asshole with a keyboard and a bunch of friends can "make noise" - but the problem isn't the noise, it's the who is listening?

Part of the "who is listening?" may have to do with the worth of the message conveyed--so your comparisons may not be that apt.
 
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10silverdollars

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And awareness is raised when people (especially those who otherwise wouldn't even KNOW) get to talking.

What good is raising awareness when BLM activity creates a pretty wide swath of negative reaction to it? Just 'cause you tell me there's dog shit on the carpet doesn't mean I'll like you for it or I'll want to see you coming around again...
 

keenobserver

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What good is raising awareness when BLM activity creates a pretty wide swath of negative reaction to it? Just 'cause you tell me there's dog shit on the carpet doesn't mean I'll like you for it or I'll want to see you coming around again...

So, you would live with the shit on the carpet?
 
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b.c.

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So, you would live with the shit on the carpet?

Lol. GOOD one. I think some might prefer to pretend it isn't there. Others, to pick at it all subtle like, in the hopes that no one notices. A few might even dress it up, in a little suit and tie, and say that it's a guest.
 

RedDick

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White supremacy movements are rejected by 99% of the nation by people of all colors. White America has the KKK and black America has the black panthers, blm movement and Luis Farrakhans "nation of Islam", which is virtually exclusively filled with blacks.

The only reason the KKK and loons like David Duke still have a smidgen of relevancy is because liberals love to give them all sorts of publicity. Liberals need racists so that they can smear an entire segment of people as being "racist". The idea that there is a legitimate "white supremacy" movement in America is a lie and a myth.

On another note, if Al Sharpton had a magic wand that had the power to eliminate all bigotry, would he use it? Of course not. He's made millions being a social justice warrior and still, incidentally, won't pay his "fair share" in taxes. I've noticed the IRS isn't hounding him and nobody here cares, right?
 

jaap_stam

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And there you go with the same condescending ASSuptions of what I know, what I don't, and what my views are based upon. That same s****** tripod pulled (until I put his a*** on IGNORE. Which is what I'm about to do for you too) since you choose to resort to insults.

Because frankly I have absolutely NO respect for or desire to respond to someone who's out to denigrate my intellect, or PRESUMES to know what shapes my views. So kindly f****** off with that.

I never said BLM started conversations in the sense that it's never been discussed before, champ, but CLEARLY we and others are talking about BLM and not those other groups of which you speak. And awareness is raised when people (especially those who otherwise wouldn't even KNOW) get to talking.


Again, saying BLM is "just a waste of time and energy" is SYNONYMOUS with the same things they said about the Civil Rights Movements of the 60's and 70's.

I guess all of THOSE "agitators" (as they called them) should've just STFU too.

I think you're better off putting me on ignore if you can't handle critical discussion with someone you disagree with without getting your feelings hurt! Just tell me what you do that's directly involved in this space, and I'll take your word for it and change my position. Else, I'll assume that everything you know about the issue is second-hand.

Second - to your links...there is absolutely nothing in the article that details BLM's involvement in any of those changes, and what they did/who they allied with politically to make it happen. Your logic is literally
1. BLM's political stance is X
2. In YY state, something close to X happened
3. BC thinks that that means BLM made it happen

I had asked for data about what BLM specifically has done - not what things have been done relevant to what BLM talks about - and you couldn't point to actual data that demonstrates their direct impact.

Most of those legislative changes have been driven by groups and leaders who have been building political capital for years among the people with actual influence. You act as if there was no conversation about broken windows policing, microaggressions, racial bias in policing etc before BLM came along. All they've done is take a militant position on it and flooded the internet with viral messaging that some opportunistic politicians who understand "zeitgeist" have co-opted. But as I keep saying, they aren't actually that connected with the real political process on the ground. Which is important, because what they have done is provide a concrete figure for racist white people to rally against and use as a political strawman to slow down any efforts relevant to BLM's stated goals.
 

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White supremacy movements are rejected by 99% of the nation by people of all colors. White America has the KKK and black America has the black panthers, blm movement and Luis Farrakhans "nation of Islam", which is virtually exclusively filled with blacks.

The only reason the KKK and loons like David Duke still have a smidgen of relevancy is because liberals love to give them all sorts of publicity. Liberals need racists so that they can smear an entire segment of people as being "racist". The idea that there is a legitimate "white supremacy" movement in America is a lie and a myth.

On another note, if Al Sharpton had a magic wand that had the power to eliminate all bigotry, would he use it? Of course not. He's made millions being a social justice warrior and still, incidentally, won't pay his "fair share" in taxes. I've noticed the IRS isn't hounding him and nobody here cares, right?
tRump has members of the white nationalist movement close to him. He doesn't deny their support and you have the nerve to call Democrats racist?
 

jaap_stam

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Crimsonlurker

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I think you're better off putting me on ignore if you can't handle critical discussion with someone you disagree with without getting your feelings hurt! Just tell me what you do that's directly involved in this space, and I'll take your word for it and change my position. Else, I'll assume that everything you know about the issue is second-hand.

Second - to your links...there is absolutely nothing in the article that details BLM's involvement in any of those changes, and what they did/who they allied with politically to make it happen. Your logic is literally
1. BLM's political stance is X
2. In YY state, something close to X happened
3. BC thinks that that means BLM made it happen

I had asked for data about what BLM specifically has done - not what things have been done relevant to what BLM talks about - and you couldn't point to actual data that demonstrates their direct impact.

Most of those legislative changes have been driven by groups and leaders who have been building political capital for years among the people with actual influence. You act as if there was no conversation about broken windows policing, microaggressions, racial bias in policing etc before BLM came along. All they've done is take a militant position on it and flooded the internet with viral messaging that some opportunistic politicians who understand "zeitgeist" have co-opted. But as I keep saying, they aren't actually that connected with the real political process on the ground. Which is important, because what they have done is provide a concrete figure for racist white people to rally against and use as a political strawman to slow down any efforts relevant to BLM's stated goals.

You do realize you're basically agreeing with RedDick right? In that blacklivesmatter (why none of you can actually type that out is a bit telling) is somehow responsible for the actions of racists. Yes, you are absolving them of all responsibility. Not just any responsibility mind you. Personal responsibility.

A guy mind you who just said....

White supremacy movements are rejected by 99% of the nation

Without you so much as metaphorically blinking. Major lolz dude. Major lulz.