"Racism" charges Prof. Gates

Flashy

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No, unfortunately, Industrialsize's remark is not far from the truth at all.

yes, my friend, it is.

why exactly would police even bother responding to the call of two suspicious men trying to force their way into a home if they had no intention of confirming they were not criminals?

if they did not take the care and protocol to ascertain that this was the home of the men in question, it would be dereliction of duty.

"I'll take your word for it" is not a police protocol when responding to reports of two men forcing their way into a vacant home. They must investigate and confirm. That is their job.

completely offbase.
 

Flashy

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Meanwhile I thanked my neighbor for calling the police when I was trying to break in to my house. I'm not always there and appreciate that someone who I don't know well is looking after my house. I'm not trying to open another can of worms but I know how to deal with the police and some people don't and that is where the problems start.

BINGO.

perfectly stated.

the way to deal with the police, is to be honest, forthcoming, deferential, polite and accomodating on every level, to every request they make in order to put them at ease with the situation (that there is no danger) your willingness to make their job easy (to resolve the situation) and your absolute indication and inclination to make sure they understand you know they are just doing their job, and you will do everything necessary to assist them in doing that.

I have never had a problem with a police officer in over about 10 different incidents, from the time i was in college to now...over incidents as simple as being pulled over for a tail-light out, to the incidents i described.

be polite, honest, accomodating and deferential and you will almost always receive the exact same in return. (note*, i am in no way downplaying or minimizing the very rare, yet traumatic incidents where there have been incidents that deviate from the norm, as experience by african americans, or others who have dealt with a police officer who was out of line)
 

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flashy said:
why exactly would police even bother responding to the call of two suspicious men

What makes them "suspicious"?

I had to shoulder my front door (rarely used) to get it open this afternoon. Several cars went by. I live much closer to the road than Prof. Gates.

Why aren't I in cuffs?

I swear flash.. I wish your comment about accomodating, deferential and polite were true. It just isn't in my experience.
 
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Flashy

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Gates showed two forms of ID after his initial statement flash.

I understand that, but he did not comply with the officer who asked him to come outside with him and then (according to reports) became uncooperative or unruly or disruptive when he decided he no longer wished to comply and was "frustrated" (as GAtes' lawyer said).

I think we can all agree, that it is not a good idea, that no matter how frustrated you are, that when dealing with a police officer, you follow all his or her instructions to a T and accomodate them completely in every way.

They ask you to step to the curb, you step to the curb. They ask for ID, you give ID, they ask you to come outside, you come outside, they ask for a phone number to call a r elative, you giver them a phone number. They have a way of doing things and each officer is trained to go through those things as best as they can to resolve the situation...throwing them off their routine in anyway, acting out in anyway, not complying in anyway, is an immediate warning sign to a police officer...any type of non-compliance, while not indicative of a crime, raises the officer's alarm level in his/her head...another type of non-compliance, raises it again, an unheeded warning increases it further, and when you cross the threshold of a particular officer's comfort zone with specifics relating to dealing with an officer, they will arrest you, to prevent any possible further altercation.

you never know, and the safest thing for a cop to do if he keeps feeling that you are tripping him up or avoiding or obstructing, is to arrest you on a very basic charge of some type of disorderly conduct or non-compliance, cuff you, and take you downtown. Better safe than sorry, and i cannot say that i disagree.

The scuttlebutt on the local news is that by the time the Cambridge PD arrived Gates and his friend were already inside the foyer of the house and when the police asked to come in Gates allowed them in.

He showed them his Mass. Driver's License and his Harvard ID. When Gates asked for the officer's info (badge # and name) the officer refused to give it. That's what's out there for local consumption.

I'll watch the 11:00 local news to see any updates.

It appears from what Couric's nightly broadcast intimated that both Gates and the Cambridge Police want an end to the thing. We'll see. I know that neighborhood in Cambridge and it's 99% white. In my opinion (again I want to state in my opinion) the woman who called the Cambridge police to report what she deemed a breaking and entering made a rush to judgment. The man with Gates was his driver from Logan Airport ... and the suitcases were on the porch.

The weather here in New England has been atrociously wet and humid and we've not seen a summer like this in eighty years. I suspect (as mine was this afternoon) Gates's door was swollen shut from humidity and weather.

The only fault I find with Gates is that he appeared to become immediately confrontational in that he said "this is how it is for a black man living in America" to the police (which would not fall on sympathetic ears to a Cambridge white police officer). But then again there's truth in Gates's statement too.

I can tell you from my own experience that being singled out as a minority for negative attention is a very unsettling thing. What that minority may be is irrelevant to how it feels to be singled out when one is minding his own business let alone (Gates) trying to get in his front door.

I'm just saying....

as for the rest of the story, we will see how it plays out.

as for being singled out for being a minority, i am not suggesting that it is not unsettling...but all the more reason that Gates should have been twice as careful, especially consdiering that the police had arrived to protect *HIS* house. He should have understood that, considering his intelligence, and if he went down the "cause i'm black" path, as you said noting Boston history of race relations, that probably did not endear him to the officer, who was just doing his job...

from what i have heard, the officer did not make one single solitary racial statement, and if he did not, then Gates' racial taunts, are totally unacceptable as was his not obeying instructions.
 

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What makes them "suspicious"?

I had to shoulder my front door (rarely used) to get it open this afternoon. Several cars went by. I live much closer to the road than Prof. Gates.

Why aren't I in cuffs?

I swear flash.. I wish your comment about accomodating, deferential and polite were true. It just isn't in my experience.


It is in mine, I'm sorry it's not in yours. The final chapter of my story is that I have joined the neighborhood association and tell them when I am home and when I am not. I have contractors and workmen coming and going from my house but only during business hours. On top of all of this I live in a gated community and have an alarm.
But frankly I'm grateful for my neighbor and the police for doing their job. Once again had the neighbor not called the police and an intruder had robbed his home would he have said that they did not call the police because he was black?
BTW If I show up on your doorstep with my luggage and claim to live there when you are not home...Don't you think you would be happy if the police questioned me and asked for ID?
 

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What makes them "suspicious"?
I do not know, but obviously, in my hypothetical case, a neighbor found it suspicious, and in the Gates case, the person who called, felt that two men, who happened to be black, who were working in tandem, to open a door that would not open for them, was suspicious. now, ovbviously, a woman from across the street or wherever, seeing this scene from a distance cannot hear what they are saying, and simply sees two men, forcing their way in the front door...she sees one of them leave (i guess, Gates) to go around to the back of the house, then, sees that guy inside the house, while the other guy continues pushing from the outside of the front...

now, that might be suspicious, if you do not know the men, cannot hear what they are saying, and see this happen.
I had to shoulder my front door (rarely used) to get it open this afternoon. Several cars went by. I live much closer to the road than Prof. Gates.

Why aren't I in cuffs?
cars that go by are different from someone that lives in the neighborhood, are they not?

perhaps nobody from the neighborhood saw you doing it, and if perhaps they did, maybe they recognized you.
I swear flash.. I wish your comment about accomodating, deferential and polite were true. It just isn't in my experience.
well, i have never encountered anyone where that was not the case...i know several people from college, and later life, who behaved badly, and got arrested, for disorderly conduct, like at a party, or causing trouble near college or outside a club etc...but never someone who behaved themselves and was doing nothing wrong and who cooperated completely.

I am sure it does exist and does happen, though. But the vast majority of the time, when behaving normally, deferential and polite, it doesn't.
 

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[/B]It is in mine, I'm sorry it's not in yours. The final chapter of my story is that I have joined the neighborhood association and tell them when I am home and when I am not. I have contractors and workmen coming and going from my house but only during business hours. On top of all of this I live in a gated community and have an alarm.
But frankly I'm grateful for my neighbor and the police for doing their job. Once again had the neighbor not called the police and an intruder had robbed his home would he have said that they did not call the police because he was black?
You live in a very different sort of place than I. I just couldn't live like that in constant fear. Do I have neighbors who watch my house? Yes. And my house came with an alarm (city one). I have never visited a gated community so maybe things are different there than here. I don't know.

BTW If I show up on your doorstep with my luggage and claim to live there when you are not home...Don't you think you would be happy if the police questioned me and asked for ID?

If they were invited guests (as the luggage would easily suggest) and I hadn't made it home in time to be there to greet them I'd be embarassed silly in truth.

I don't want to live in a police state.

flashy said:
cars that go by are different from someone that lives in the neighborhood, are they not?

From what's being reported here in the greater Boston area the woman was driving by.

flashy said:
then Gates' racial taunts

He said one thing only (paraphrase) "this is what it's like for a black man to live in America". That's not a racial taunt the way I read it. It's a statement of fact.

**additionally: I present the following from The Boston Phoenix

This is what your average "Joe" from suburban Boston thinks. It's representative of what's in The Boston Herald and even the nearly bankrupt Boston Globe.


Rest assured. Bigotry is alive and well and thriving in suburban Massachusetts.
 
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I see at as a, "he said, she said," kind of thing unless witnesses can verify what happened. I'm not surprised the police officer abused his authority to arrest Gates on some ridiculous charge that would be dismissed. Cops do that all the time just to be assholes.

My experience with cops is pretty basic. Be polite but never admit to anything, never sign anything, never, ever, allow them to search without a warrant and learn what and when cops can search your vehicle. If you notice they've done something illegal, keep your mouth shut about it until you can speak to a lawyer.

Many police officers are decent people trying to do a good job but many others aren't. Don't risk your safety and liberties assuming you've got one of the good ones. Sadly, law enforcement tends to attract precisely the sort of person who shouldn't be in any sort of position of authority.
 

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The end of the story for me is that both sides are on CNN saying it was a misunderstanding. For me it means that both sides had some fault and want to move on.
As for me I was happy that Honolulu's finest showed up at my door and was grateful in the end that no one said "Book him Danno!"

YouTube - Hawaii Five 0 Intro
 

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My experience with cops is pretty basic. Be polite but never admit to anything, never sign anything, never, ever, allow them to search without a warrant and learn what and when cops can search your vehicle. If you notice they've done something illegal, keep your mouth shut about it until you can speak to a lawyer. Don't risk your safety and liberties assuming you've got one of the good ones. Sadly, law enforcement tends to attract precisely the sort of person who shouldn't be in any sort of position of authority.

When you nail it brother you nail it! I've never trusted (for the most part) the incentive behind those who opt for the job.

We've lived parallel lives in this Jason.
 

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From what's being reported here in the greater Boston area the woman was driving by.

well, it is strange, but hey...shit happens.



He said one thing only (paraphrase) "this is what it's like for a black man to live in America". That's not a racial taunt the way I read it. It's a statement of fact.

well, sounds like a racial taunt to me :smile:

keep in mind, the definition of "taunt"

To reproach in a mocking, insulting, or contemptuous manner.

sure sounds like he was reproaching the officer, who was white, who had not made race an issue, in a contemptuous manner, suggesting that the white officer was treating him with bias and racism.

When you openly accuse someone of racism, when that person has made no mention of race and is doing his job, calmly and methodically, i'd say that qualifies as a taunt...Gates was certainly being contemptuous IMO, from what he said.



**additionally: I present the following from The Boston Phoenix

This is what your average "Joe" from suburban Boston thinks. It's representative of what's in The Boston Herald and even the nearly bankrupt Boston Globe.


Rest assured. Bigotry is alive and well and thriving in suburban Massachusetts.

I do think anyone disagrees that there is bigotry in many places...but that does not excuse Gates' behavior in this matter. He taunted a man who had not hurt him, not been racist and was just doing his job...Gates worked himself up into a self-imposed frenzy of racial victimhood, when clearly, the situation called for calmness and rational behavior on his part. The officer did not harm him, hit him, berate him, make racial statements, or behave in anything less then a proper manner of police procedure from what everyone is saying.

it is indeed sad and unfortunate, when innocent african americans have been victimized by police in the post, which is certainly deplorable...but this is not one of those situations...the officer dealt with him calmly and rationally,....he did not go in with guns drawn, did not force Gates to the floor and yell a racial epithet at him...he went to investigate the scene of a report of suspicious activity. NOthing more.
 

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I do think anyone disagrees that there is bigotry in many places...but that does not excuse Gates' behavior in this matter. He taunted a man who had not hurt him, not been racist and was just doing his job...Gates worked himself up into a self-imposed frenzy of racial victimhood, when clearly, the situation called for calmness and rational behavior on his part. The officer did not harm him, hit him, berate him, make racial statements, or behave in anything less then a proper manner of police procedure from what everyone is saying.

Gates' alleged behavior. The only source you have to confirm that behavior was the man who, possibly illegally, arrested him. It is possible the police officer didn't believe Gates and brought him in simply because he was black and in a house that looked too expensive for a black person to own and Gates tried to defend himself verbally. The fact is we don't know what happened until we find some corroborating witnesses swearing to what they saw, under penalty of perjury, one way or the other and that ain't happening.
 

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Gates' alleged behavior. The only source you have to confirm that behavior was the man who, possibly illegally, arrested him. It is possible the police officer didn't believe Gates and brought him in simply because he was black and in a house that looked too expensive for a black person to own and Gates tried to defend himself verbally. The fact is we don't know what happened until we find some corroborating witnesses swearing to what they saw, under penalty of perjury, one way or the other and that ain't happening.

you are probably right Jase, but i do not see why both are dropping their charges etc and agreeing to it being a misunderstanding...because it is probably a bit of both.

Gates' lawyer did not deny he said the "black man in america" and the police are probably just as eager to avoid an embarassment. my guess is they both screwed up....but i do not think he was "illegally" arrested...i think he was brought in on as minimal a charge possible by the officer once the officer got scared by the race comment and Gates being frustrated and possibly uncooperative.

i would like to know where the driver was, in all this.
 

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I think it's absurd what Gates did. What a retard ? This idiot is employed by Harvard and is teaching those students ? When a police officer is investigating and you are innocent, no matter how innocent you are, you co-operate, red, yellow, black/brown or white. The badge and the law are on his side. "To serve and to protect", not just Gates, but any and all of his neighbors. When you initially refuse to show someone your id and the police can demand it when investigating this level of an incident (hell, they can ask you for id anytime and anywhere as part of due diligence to the community), playing a race card while being difficult is a good way to find out what laws are on the books to make the officers job easier to do. They are responding to a break-in and have no way of knowing whether it's an armed break-in. That happens to white people too. You don't want to deceive or make their job any more difficult than it already is in a tense situation. Gates had no way of knowing what was reported, how it was described. Nobody wants to get shot by accident, but at the very least, the police officers are armed and will use necessary force to perform their job to protect everyone involved. They have no way of knowing whether Gates was harmless, but again, refuse to co-operate and regardless of skin color, you're escalating a potentially volatile situation. The amount of time it would have taken Gates to diffuse the situation with going the extra good faith co-operation, he lost ten fold by being the "poor me, I'm being discriminated against because I'm a black man in America". He empowered his own victimization instead of using the higher intellect and education he's earned scholastically ?

And when is it racial profiling when one fits the description from an eye witness that reported a perceived crime ? That happened to me a few year's back and I stood in the rain for 45 minutes next to my truck as my background check went thru the procedures that are in place that everyone must abide by. Yes it's inconvenient, but you can imagine how pissed off I'd be if the fugitive they were looking for had done something to me as an innocent victim ? In that case, the safety of the community is at risk if they don't do their jobs. That incident I was an innocent bystander to, it involved several squad cars up and down the entire block and I was just heading over to Little Caesars for a cheap pizza. I guess hunger was my crime and I was profiled too ?

At the end of the day, the police aren't here to harass anyone, I bet they would have preferred not ever getting that call from the nosey neighbor ? What we have here is a man that was in his home, felt put out because someone asked him to prove it was his current residence in a casual investigation. I mean really, w(ho)tf is buying that the police simply drove up to the brotha's home after he had already gotten inside and decided to f*ck with him because they had nothing better to do ? They got a call and investigated and had to put up with an @sshole who didn't co-operate and made things worse for himself in the situation. I guess Al Sharpton is buying into it ? From the photos, it looked like he was roughed up pretty good too (take that sarcastically) ?
 
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At the end of the day, the police aren't here to harass anyone, I bet they would have preferred not ever getting that call from the nosey neighbor? What we have here is a man that was in his home, felt put out because someone asked him to prove it was his current residence in a casual investigation. I mean really, w(ho)tf is buying that the police simply drove up to the brotha's home after he had already gotten inside and decided to f*ck with him because they had nothing better to do ? They got a call and investigated and had to put up with an @sshole who didn't co-operate and made things worse for himself in the situation. I guess Al Sharpton is buying into it ? From the photos, it looked like he was roughed up pretty good too (take that sarcastically) ?

For one moment (if you're willing transformer) put yourself in Professor Gates's place and see how you'd feel.

Gates is very respected in this neck of the woods. His house is well known and the woman who called the police, I believe, lived nearby and works at Harvard too.

Either way both the Cambridge PD and Gates have said that the incident was unfortunate and appear not to want to make anything more of it. However it does bring interesting opinions to the fore.

Either way it's been an interesting discussion that been brought forth at the LPSG board.
 

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For one moment (if you're willing transformer) put yourself in Professor Gates's place and see how you'd feel.

Gates is very respected in this neck of the woods. His house is well known and the woman who called the police, I believe, lived nearby and works at Harvard too.

Exactly. Better still. Imagine how "cooperative" his neighbor would've been had Gates called the cops on her.

you are probably right Jase, but i do not see why both are dropping their charges etc and agreeing to it being a misunderstanding...because it is probably a bit of both.

Gates' lawyer did not deny he said the "black man in america" and the police are probably just as eager to avoid an embarassment. my guess is they both screwed up....but i do not think he was "illegally" arrested...i think he was brought in on as minimal a charge possible by the officer once the officer got scared by the race comment and Gates being frustrated and possibly uncooperative.

i would like to know where the driver was, in all this.

It's amazing the degree of rationalization one employs to deny that which is already well documented, that is, race being a factor which results in the increased likelyhood of being stopped or questioned by the police (far from truth, you said).

Maybe far from your truth. As I said, documented evidence proves otherwise.
 
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