Saying what you like to a police officer is not an offense. Insulting speech is protected under the first amendment. That doesn't mean cops respect that highest of laws. The fact that man did so on his own property makes that speech just about impossible to prosecute and the cop should have known that. It doesn't matter that Gates was uncooperative or made racial comments. The fact of the case is that the man was legally entitled to break into his own house how ever he wanted to. If he wore a black catsuit and a balaclava, it's still legal. Stupid, but legal. Yes, it does look suspicious, no question there, but no law has been broken, ergo no arrest is warranted. If, as the papers claim, Gates was able to enter the house, then there should be no doubt as to ownership as he could have produced anything from a driver's license to a passport to prove his identity. I'd be surprised if he didn't also have copies of his works, photographs, and other personal ephemera to prove his identity. No matter how angry Gates became, so long as he does not threaten the officer with harm, then he's free to say what he likes and most particularly so in his own home. It's up to the cop to keep his cool and simply verify ownership of the home, apologize for the inconvenience, and leave. The fact that the charge against Gates was dropped essentially proves that the officer's charge against him had no standing and if it doesn't, then he was falsely arrested. That's illegal.
"Racism" charges Prof. Gates
- Thread starter B_Stronzo
- Start date
Saying what you like to a police officer is not an offense. Insulting speech is protected under the first amendment. That doesn't mean cops respect that highest of laws. The fact that man did so on his own property makes that speech just about impossible to prosecute and the cop should have known that. It doesn't matter that Gates was uncooperative or made racial comments. The fact of the case is that the man was legally entitled to break into his own house how ever he wanted to. If he wore a black catsuit and a balaclava, it's still legal. Stupid, but legal. Yes, it does look suspicious, no question there, but no law has been broken, ergo no arrest is warranted. If, as the papers claim, Gates was able to enter the house, then there should be no doubt as to ownership as he could have produced anything from a driver's license to a passport to prove his identity. I'd be surprised if he didn't also have copies of his works, photographs, and other personal ephemera to prove his identity. No matter how angry Gates became, so long as he does not threaten the officer with harm, then he's free to say what he likes and most particularly so in his own home. It's up to the cop to keep his cool and simply verify ownership of the home, apologize for the inconvenience, and leave. The fact that the charge against Gates was dropped essentially proves that the officer's charge against him had no standing and if it doesn't, then he was falsely arrested. That's illegal.
Why should he be banished into any camp? His record speaks for itself. They picked the wrong man to try that on this time. Dr. Gates is not some stereotypical street thug. This man is a world reknown scholar.
Not having been an eye witness myself, I have no way of knowing exactly what went down. I do know that our own preconceived ideas will influence the way we react to this story. People tend to let their emotions cloud their vision. You can't trust your vision when your imagination is skewed.
- b.c.,
Exactly, Jason. It was the cops who went overboard. What the above posters (flashy and trans-) are suggesting is that the man didn't have the right to be indignant in his own home and that he whipped out some "race card" (and therefore acted in a racist manner himself). What supreme bullshit, eh?
Gates was not the villain here. He was clearly outraged (as any of his neighbors might have also been) and stating (what from the perception of the black community) is a reality, a reality backed by historical precedence and statistics of record.
...Not playing some fuckin' "card".
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What if you were a cop and 80% of all the people who committed crimes that you were directly involved in stopping were black?
We all understand in an academic sense that racial profiling in a bad thing but unless you are a beat cop and if most of the people who commit crimes in your area happen to be black...well then can you see where the cops are coming from?
I certainly can and that's why I claim that law enforcement attracts the wrong people. I may know that nearly all people in my patrol area are white and the most people who commit crimes in the area are black but I cannot profile based upon that experience. That's a restriction upon the mandate of law enforcement that has to be accepted.
In the city of Cambridge it may be unusual to see black people in a 99% white residential area and it may be unusual seeing a black person with a livery car and luggage trying to jimmy a lock on a doorstep to ahouse. The most I could do is assume reasonable suspicion solely upon the fact that someone is trying to gain entry into a home without a key. The officer can ask for some proof of identity, but no citizen is required to carry proof of identity and so should not act otherwise except to ask for proof of domicile. If Gates already had entry to the home by the time the officer arrived, as reported, then that should not be a problem.
Profiling is, perhaps, warranted, yet it is not legal no matter how logical it may be in the minds of some law enforcement agents. This is the crux of the matter and is why it is so difficult for some cops to accept the fact that they are legally behind the 8-ball. The law is weighted to the side of the suspect/average citizen and that's just how it is in our legal system. It takes enormous patience and effort for a police officer to refrain from jumping too conclusions based upon years of experience yet that is what they must do. It's unfair, frustrating, and wickedly difficult to do, yet that is what the law requires.
transformer_99
Experimental Member
I don't care what was running thru Gate's head at the time. If the Gestapo were to come knocking at my door because my neighbor phoned in that she saw me from across the courtyard breaking into my apartment because for whatever reason a normal entrance into the front door of my home wasn't possible, you can rest assured I'd co-operate with them and diffuse the misunderstanding. I wouldn't put attitude out that I didn't have to offer any explanation for suspicious behavior in my own community. I'd also hope that the one calling the police would help diffuse the situation and misunderstanding. This is how normal, educated and civilized people conduct themselves over a misunderstanding. Not act like you need a bleeping lawyer simply because someone requires a little more than just a "mind your own business" attitude, when the community unites to protect it's members. I'd probably thank my neighbor for having the couteousy to get involved and look out for my well being and concern for my private property rather than accuse everyone within earshot that the whole ordeal was some fabricated racial discrimination.
So yes, I thought about it and put myself in Gate's shoes, or as everyone else seems to feel color of his skin. You know, those policemen probably realized that they had a misunderstanding on their hands, they asked for the one next step that their procedure manual and training guide requires of them and they got handed the posturing of an uncooperative individual, they figured they let the @sshole cool off down at the station. Me, I would've cracked a joke or something making light of the situation. 5 more minutes of my time sure would've been worth more to me than being out the time for just the ride downtown.
And I'm not saying they'd do it, but the next time there's a call at that address, it wouldn't be a priority to get there. If Gate's can handle that for himself, more power to him, but by the same token, when his place gets robbed, I'd look at him and tell him, bet you wished we had treated your call like it came from a black man in America this time ? Then I'd ask him if he wanted the police to fill out a report on it, or would that be construed as discrimination because the police didn't recover his sh*t fast enough. That he felt he got 2nd rate treatment for being yet again, a black man in America. My point is, where do you draw the line on whether or not you have to do anything, what's appropriate or inappropriate, the dude's gonna feel slighted for something unrelated anyway ? The chip is already on the shoulder, just a matter of who or what sets it off again ? Ask Gate's if his black neighbor had phoned in the incident, does he have the same problem with it, or is that just Al Sharpton/Jesse Jackson black solidarity ? When is the effort perceived as being a good neighbor and a welcomed act and when is it just trying to make your neighbor's life more difficult than it has to be ?
I read the posts about how well known and revered the man is, obviously not everyone is aware that a black man even lives at that address ? Hell, the police didn't know, they had to ask him for his id to match the address ? And when the door was shut, how could they have possibly known whoever was inside was a black man, all they had to go on was that the reported burglars were black men. That came from the neighbor, so it's not like they made that sh*t up on the fly because it sounded good ?
Police officers just can't win ? It has to be frustrating for them.
So yes, I thought about it and put myself in Gate's shoes, or as everyone else seems to feel color of his skin. You know, those policemen probably realized that they had a misunderstanding on their hands, they asked for the one next step that their procedure manual and training guide requires of them and they got handed the posturing of an uncooperative individual, they figured they let the @sshole cool off down at the station. Me, I would've cracked a joke or something making light of the situation. 5 more minutes of my time sure would've been worth more to me than being out the time for just the ride downtown.
And I'm not saying they'd do it, but the next time there's a call at that address, it wouldn't be a priority to get there. If Gate's can handle that for himself, more power to him, but by the same token, when his place gets robbed, I'd look at him and tell him, bet you wished we had treated your call like it came from a black man in America this time ? Then I'd ask him if he wanted the police to fill out a report on it, or would that be construed as discrimination because the police didn't recover his sh*t fast enough. That he felt he got 2nd rate treatment for being yet again, a black man in America. My point is, where do you draw the line on whether or not you have to do anything, what's appropriate or inappropriate, the dude's gonna feel slighted for something unrelated anyway ? The chip is already on the shoulder, just a matter of who or what sets it off again ? Ask Gate's if his black neighbor had phoned in the incident, does he have the same problem with it, or is that just Al Sharpton/Jesse Jackson black solidarity ? When is the effort perceived as being a good neighbor and a welcomed act and when is it just trying to make your neighbor's life more difficult than it has to be ?
I read the posts about how well known and revered the man is, obviously not everyone is aware that a black man even lives at that address ? Hell, the police didn't know, they had to ask him for his id to match the address ? And when the door was shut, how could they have possibly known whoever was inside was a black man, all they had to go on was that the reported burglars were black men. That came from the neighbor, so it's not like they made that sh*t up on the fly because it sounded good ?
Police officers just can't win ? It has to be frustrating for them.
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No, they can't. You might want to do all those things but they'd make you a bad police officer. That's one of the things that drives police officers to high suicide, divorce, and substance abuse rates. You are in a position of disadvantage to the people you are supposed to serve. I'd hate the job and actually can understand why legacy cops who come from generations of cops tend to make the best police officers. They get it. They understand the game and the inherent unfairness in it. They get that you might want desperately to treat an asshole like an asshole but you simply can't and it might cost you your job if you do. It's a shitty job and I respect enormously the people who do it well and fairly.
Excuse me, BC, but where exactly did i say that the increased likelihood of being stopped or treated unfairly because of race was "far from the truth"?
Please point out *EXACTLY* where is said it...I *NEVER* did...in fact, i went out of my way and went on record in this thread several times,
mentioning and condemning the sad truth of these unfortunate occurrences...
"the fact is, that while i certainly understand the racial slant many have faced such as "driving while black" or living in a nice home,"
"YOU DO NOT YELL AT COPS, NO MATTER WHAT COLOR YOU ARE! It always ends with you arrested. If you happen to be black, i would say that increases the chances dramatically. "
two men forcing open a door in an upscale neighborhood, is suspiscious, no matter what color you are,....undoubtedly, being black does not help matters.
does this mean it is nice or fair? No. Have unfair race based issues like this happened in the past to innocent african americans? Absolutely.
http://www.lpsg.org/2237357-post9.html
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stronz, while i don't doubt the absolute fact of historical enmity and bias between the police and black community memebers,
http://www.lpsg.org/2237411-post15.html
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be polite, honest, accomodating and deferential and you will almost always receive the exact same in return. (note*, i am in no way downplaying or minimizing the very rare, yet traumatic incidents where there have been incidents that deviate from the norm, as experience by african americans, or others who have dealt with a police officer who was out of line)
http://www.lpsg.org/2237490-post22.html
--
I do not think anyone disagrees that there is bigotry in many places...but that does not excuse Gates' behavior in this matter.
it is indeed sad and unfortunate, when innocent african americans have been victimized by police in the past, which is certainly deplorable...
http://www.lpsg.org/2237577-post31.html
--
maybe you should offer an apology...because i never said anything remotely like your accusation....i will assume it is a simple oversight on your part. If it isn't an oversight and you truly mean it, then sorry, but what i have reprinted and linked to are 8 examples that certainly fall under the phrase you stated which was "documented evidence proves otherwise."
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This picture has just been posted...
http://cache.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2009/07/21/1248231825_7121/300h.jpg
he was arrested outside the house on the porch...not inside, according to the article
you can see he is clearly saying something, in what looks like a relatively loud and agitated manner(my interpration), and you can clearly see the second officer, making a hand motion that looks (my interpretation) as if he is saying "calm down" (or some other words asking for calm/cooperation)
we can also see an african american officer in the picture.
the full Gates quote, according to him, is " Are you not giving me your name and badge number because Im a black man in America? . . . He treated my request with scorn.
Gates also said he was suffering from a bronchial infection and was physically unable to yell. (i have no reason to doubt him, but from the picture there certainly appears to be an attempt at yelling or some agitation)
also, apparently,
Gates said that as a man who is half white, who was married to a white woman for more than two decades, and whose children are part white, I dont walk around calling white people racist. . . . Nobody knows me as some lunatic black nationalist whos walking around beating up on white people. This is just not my profile.
No charge, but Gates case seethes - The Boston Globe
http://cache.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2009/07/21/1248231825_7121/300h.jpg
he was arrested outside the house on the porch...not inside, according to the article
you can see he is clearly saying something, in what looks like a relatively loud and agitated manner(my interpration), and you can clearly see the second officer, making a hand motion that looks (my interpretation) as if he is saying "calm down" (or some other words asking for calm/cooperation)
we can also see an african american officer in the picture.
the full Gates quote, according to him, is " Are you not giving me your name and badge number because Im a black man in America? . . . He treated my request with scorn.
Gates also said he was suffering from a bronchial infection and was physically unable to yell. (i have no reason to doubt him, but from the picture there certainly appears to be an attempt at yelling or some agitation)
also, apparently,
Gates said that as a man who is half white, who was married to a white woman for more than two decades, and whose children are part white, I dont walk around calling white people racist. . . . Nobody knows me as some lunatic black nationalist whos walking around beating up on white people. This is just not my profile.
No charge, but Gates case seethes - The Boston Globe
Looks like they are taking him out of the house after he had been handcuffed.
There is no excuse for that given the charges.
As a man who has but to leap from a cliff and have all of Harvard Law appear to bear him up by the foot, I'm surprised and curious as to why he has not pursued charges.
There is no excuse for that given the charges.
As a man who has but to leap from a cliff and have all of Harvard Law appear to bear him up by the foot, I'm surprised and curious as to why he has not pursued charges.
here is a link to the preliminary copy of the police report, with the views of the two police officers...(Crowley and Figueroa's supplement)
Gates Police Report
i will be interested to hear the views of the witnesses, since there were several...if they confirm that he was shouting, then we will know that he was lying about his inability to do so because of the Bronchial Infection.
I would be interested to hear what the other police officers and the original witness who reported the scene and was outside have to say.
interestingly, it says that Gates called someone wanting to speak to the "Chief"...likely to the police, i'd say, to speak to a supervisor...i would like to hear it if it is recorded, also, i would like to hear the police communications dispatch recordings, where we could hear what the officer was saying during the incident, and also if we could hear Gates in the background.
Gates Police Report
i will be interested to hear the views of the witnesses, since there were several...if they confirm that he was shouting, then we will know that he was lying about his inability to do so because of the Bronchial Infection.
I would be interested to hear what the other police officers and the original witness who reported the scene and was outside have to say.
interestingly, it says that Gates called someone wanting to speak to the "Chief"...likely to the police, i'd say, to speak to a supervisor...i would like to hear it if it is recorded, also, i would like to hear the police communications dispatch recordings, where we could hear what the officer was saying during the incident, and also if we could hear Gates in the background.
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All I can say is that I've locked myself out numerous times and had to break into my own house from the front side (i.e., in full view of any neighbors who might be looking).
It struck me as perfectly obvious that someone might call the police and I would have to prove I lived at my house. That's just a "duh." It's inconvenient, but that's what I get for locking myself out. And it's better than living in a neighborhood where people break and enter all the time and no one pays any attention.
It struck me as perfectly obvious that someone might call the police and I would have to prove I lived at my house. That's just a "duh." It's inconvenient, but that's what I get for locking myself out. And it's better than living in a neighborhood where people break and enter all the time and no one pays any attention.
They were.
He may well.
This just in via the local WBZ-TV Boston newscast:
Professor Gates is speaking with his lawyers about pursuing charges against the Cambridge PD.
In a taped telephone conversation from his home on Martha's Vineyard Gates said "it's not as though I'm some black national. I'm 56% white myself and my wife of twenty-five years is white."
(Recall he's the fellow who did all the DNA work for well-known black personalities including Chris Rock, Oprah, Tina Turner, etc... and produced a very interesting documentary which was featured on PBS)
The other thing that was mentioned was that he may well do a documentary on racial profiling.
**Personal observation/opinion:
It occurs to me we're (Americans) going through a growth period.
The Commonwealth of Massachusetts has a black governor (Deval Patrick) and we have a black man in the Oval Office. Blue collar Massachusetts is (by-in-large) conservative Republican and my over-all sense is that (again opinion here) people get threatened very easily.
If we put this thing in perspective (and after reading and rereading that link I posted for The Boston Phoenix) I'm seeing fear in those responses. "The man" has been in control (or perceived control) for so long these people are IMMENSELY threatened.
Additionally the local WBZ-TV television station (Boston) has a blog called Conversation Nation. The racist drivel that's pouring onto that blog is an affront to thinking people.
This thing's bigger than what happened to Professor Gates in Cambridge. This is a learning opportunity in my view.
flashy said:
He's being led out of his house post arrest to be booked at the Cambridge PD in that photo flash.
Earllogjam said:
I'd not be a cop.
But were I to have chosen that profession I'd deal with people not according to racial profiling which is precisely how I read this thing no matter what the population in the neighborhood. This was not Roxbury or South Boston Earl. So it occurs to me your question does not readily apply.
No. I cannot. And if a cop does "come from" that place. He ought to have his badge pulled.
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- b.c.,
I'd apologize if I had misread the implications of your response to what Industrialsize had said (reply no. 10).
I-size's remark (the likelyhood of something like this happening to a white person) was and is based on (as I continue to say) a perceived reality among the black community, a perception which is based on historical fact. You said that the reduced likelihood of this happening to a white person was "far from the truth".
And yes, you did acknowledge an awareness (in later responses) of the problem of racial profiling. But then you follow by bemoaning the fact that charges were dropped against Gates (reply no. 36) and implying he used race to undermine the (alleged) validity of the arrest.
So, do you still think I owe you that apology?
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that is incorrect stronz...he is being led off the porch. he was arrested outside the home, on the porch. Technically speaking, it is not "his" house either...It is Harvard's house...he is leasing the property. (not that it makes a legal difference to the incident)
the fact is, he was the first person to bring race into it and if he'd followed every instruction and behaved calmly, none of this would have happened.
anyway, what his neighbor said was this, as an eyewitness:
A 55-year-old neighbor who said he witnessed the incident but declined to give his name, however, said that Gates was in fact yelling loudly, as indicated by a photo taken by another neighbor.
When police asked him for ID, Gates started yelling, Im a Harvard professor . . . You believe white women over black men. This is racial profiling.
The police did their job, said the neighbor. He should be thanking them. But they shouldnt have arrested him. He had just gotten off a 20-hour flight. He couldnt get his door open. He got frustrated. . . They should have just said forget it.
as i have said, this incident could have been avoided completely if Gates had used his superior intellect, and responded calmly and deferentially to every request no matter how annoyed he was.
For such an intelligent man, he should have known to bite his lip, go outside with the officer as requested, where there were already several other officers and witnesses, and behaved as calmly and rationally as possible...if he felt he was treated unfairly and with racial animus, he should have, after the situation had been resolved peacefully and calmly, filed a public complaint with his concerns.
his lack of rational behavior, escalated a situation, challenged the officer immediately by accusing him of racial animus. His hysterics were not necessary...the cops did not draw their guns or fire at him...he was asked to follow procedures, questions and instructions...if he had done so, this would have been over and done with in about 20 minutes.
Instead, he is now demanding that the entire Cambridge Police Force now go to sensitivity training, and is making a documentary about Racial Profiling. He has turned what was a case of a good neighbor, reporting a possible break in to *HIS* home, the police showing up in good faith to investigate, and his lack of rational response into a massive racial clusterfuck.
he is so smart, yet he couldn't deal with it calmly, and say, "I know how this looks, i understand, and i will do everything possible and answer every question so wecan resolve this as quickly as possible...what can i do to make your job easier?"
one would think that with this history of intelligent action:
Gates said he has gone out of his way in the past to avoid run-ins with police. When he first arrived at Harvard in 1991, he moved into a large house in the mostly white suburb of Lexington and promptly visited the police station to introduce himself.
I wanted them to see my black face, Gates said. I would be driving home late from Harvard. I had a Mercedes. I didnt want to be stopped for driving while black. . . . I should have done that with the Cambridge Police Department.
he would have reacted a little better...not demanding the officer's badge number and name, not screaming about believing a white woman over a black man, blah blah blah...
he sounds just like my dad...everything is a personal insult and a challenge to his manhood, ego, reputation.
my father used to pull shit like this all the time, and frankly, it is a miracle he was only detained twice. He was just like Professor Gates...arrogant, entitled, spoiled. He is the CEO of his own large company, he is rich and thinks the world revolves around his needs first.
He talks back to police officers who give him speeding tickets when he has clearly been speeding, he yells at meter maids who give him parking tickets when he clearly has been parked illegally, and in the most amusing two episodes was detained in two airports, Heathrow in London and in Acapulco Mexico, when his entitlement and obnoxious behavior caused such a ruckus that he was escorted both times to a detainment area, the entire time, dressed in his armani suit, with his rolex, yelling "do you know i am?" "How dare you!" "you are going to regret this!"
I used to watch this and laugh, in a combination of total embarrassment, and absolute glee that this obnoxious, entitled ass was being punished for his total intransigience. I used to follow in his wake, apologizing to all those who he offended or upset...police officers, ticket counter workers who he had yelled at, concierges...I know exactly this type of person, and they think they are above the rules, and it comes out when they are frustrated and challenged by someone of lesser station but with more authority.
He, like Professor Gates, is a self important horse's ass, who cannot simply accept that some people, have authority over you, in this case the police, no matter who rich, powerful or distinguished you are, or *THINK* you are...well guess what? You're not.
and frankly, i think this article, describes things perfectly in general when dealing with such a situation.
washingtonpost.com
- b.c.,
Well, aside from the fact that you interject personal information in trying to assume the motivations behind Gates' personality and actions, I notice that not ONCE in this entire diatribe do you at least acknowledge what Gates' own neighbor does, that the officers shouldn't have arrested him.
I'm still unconvinced. Reports vary still.
However from the most recent Boston Globe article on the event it appears you're correct. Though other stories reported the arrest happened in his foyer earlier. I'm not sure we've got all the facts as they've been disclosed yet. Much needs to be learned on so many levels.
Well we all have a point of view and that one suits your take best. I understand that.
I would be more inclined to deal with it on the local level flash even and in spite of the national attention it's receiving.
Again I think it's much bigger than the professor's arrest and we can all learn something truly valuable from it. If we don't (as the old theory goes) we're bound to repeat our historical mistakes.
In the few large cities we have in Massachusetts race relations are truly dreadful. I think sensitivity training is one hell of an idea.
I could have used some in use (to bring it to the personal) two years ago this coming September.
I can tell you this much flash.
From a minority standpoint it simply sucks to have people say (even among your own) that "oh yes ... what was he doing there.... why was he where he was? What business did he have there? "
I can tell you without any hesitation these same questions would not have been asked of a white heterosexual who find himself in my predicament. Hell a white heterosexual wouldn't have found himself in my predicament because he wouldn't have been targeted.
This where the minority piece comes in.
Perhaps I'm just more sympathetic to the message sent by the Cambridge Police Dept. since I had a similar one sent me by the Provincetown ones.
Anyhow enough of me.
I maintain still flash that this thing should never have taken place.
Assumptions were made re Gates which never should have been made. Hence his present dilemma.
WBZ-TV ... my local news source is a highly respected broadcast. I'll watch at 5:00 and see what's transpired.
flashy said:
That's the case on many college campuses and you're right it makes no "legal difference". I don't understand why you'd interject it.
There's no need to diminish the man for what any other college professor enjoys countrywide in my view. Why bring it up? It's irrelevant.
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i have said in other posts that they probably should not have arrested him...but they were still within the law to do so...same as when it happened with my father. You behave like an asshole towards the police, and, they do not necessarily *HAVE* to arrest you...but i more than understand if they do.
Doesn't make it necessarily nice or right, but you mouth off and behave uncooperatively to the cops, and you take your chances with being arrested.
As for injecting the personal motivations, they are the same the whole "Do you know who i am" attitude always reflects the same type of entitlement and attitude...whether it is a celebrity, an asshole like my father, or Henry Louis GAtes...it is all about *THEM* and a challenge to their ego.
The second anyone indignantly says a variation on the "Do You Know Who I Am?" power play, yes, you know instantly who they are...an entitled baby who thinks they somehow by their station in life they are immune to proper procedures, standards or behaviors and requests.