Racism in the United States

[Dr. Dilznick]

Also, I think many blacks believe that all conservatives (and I mean economic conservatives) are hardcore racists. There are two schools of justification for this:

1. Conservatives only believe what they do because small government works against blacks, and racism is their real motivation
2. It doesn't matter if conservatives are pure of hurt. They should know that small government hurts blacks, and if they don't care, they are accepting an institutional form of racism, and therefore are racist themselves.

Here's what needs to be understood. Economic conservatism is the backbone of this country. We are the only country in the world that believes in truly free enterprise, and I believe we always will be. Yes, there are some people who fit #1, who use anti-government opinions as a mask for racism, because they equate government spending (i.e. welfare) with blacks.

But most conservatives truly believe in small government. In fact, a study by Sniderman and Carmines shows that economic liberals are just as likely to be racist as economic conservatives.

So my point here is it's very important that we don't make the mistake of calling support for small-government capitalism a form of institutional racism. If we define them as the same thing, we are setting a very dangerous precedent for our future.

 

[Dr. Dilznick]

buy a gun

Seriously.

 

[B_Hung Muscle]

Good thread, Hung Muscle.

I'll tell you what I think about racism. I would guess that between 10% and 20% of white Americans are racist enough that it would be fair to label them as white supremacists. Probably closer to 20%. I would guess that another 70% or 80% are racist in a less blatant way--people who have subtly racist ideas about race and crime, race and intelligence, race and work ethic, etc. A lot of minorities subscribe to this belief as well. Now I'm not a racist; I'm a realist. I want social security and the 40 acres the Devil took from us.

You know, honestly, if white supremacy means that people believe that caucasians are smarter/better than Blacks and would like to live in a country devoid of dark skintones, I would put the percentage at higher than 20.

You kinda hint at the interesting question of reparations, though. There seem to be inherent contradictions in the way African-Americans and native Americans have been treated in thsi regard. Is this only because the US is forced to adhere to the treaties it concluded with the tribes?

 

[b.c.]

Having said that, I also know that part of me gets scared when I see one or two black men huddled somewhere, and I am walking alone, or with a friend.

At some point, I became concerned with gangs and violence. I am not saying that all Black men are looking to attack me, I am just noting the fact that, I feel that way sometimes.

got news for you, dude, when i see that, sometimes, depending on what part of town i'm in, a part of me gets scared too...and i'm black.

In this town of mine (New Orleans) depending on where u are and what time of day, being wary has nothing to do with racism, and everything to do with being aware of certain facts and past incidences of crime etc. in that particular area (unlike Lex stated, they do tell where a crime occurs in this city). People in time get to know what parta of town increases the likelihood that something could happen to you if you're there. Add to that the fact that the most likely victim of a crime perpetrated by a black here is most likely going to be another black, and one has ample reason to be concerned. There's a difference between overreaction based on racial stereotypes, and common sense.

 

[madame_zora]

Jeff, That was an amazing and honest look at yourself, thanks for sharing it.

The media has led us to believe that we are unsafe around blacks, latinos, etc. so we act thusly. The thing is- like it or not, there is some undeniable truth there, so what then do you do?

I live in an area of town where there is a large Somalian population. Prior to living here, I knew nothing of Somalia, nor it's customs. After being harassed by sexual come-ons non-stop on the way to the mailbox and to take out trash, or getting in and out of my car, I got the picture. Women are supposed to find some man to take care of them, they're not supposed to be happily single. My just being me is offensive to them. I've gotten the word out where I live that I'm NOT INTERESTED nomatter who you are, because I don't shit where I eat. My neighbor up the hall laughed hard when I told him that, we spent most of an afternoon talking about it and got along great. He no longer hoots and me when I'm taking out garbage and will likely hold the door if my hands are full, as I will for him. It only took a conversation, now we have mutual respect.

I don't have time to win over every single person individually, and some I am less interested in than others. I can't go into a whole neighborhood where I don't fit in and have a fireside chat with every resident, so I lock my doors. I lock them when I get IN the car, every day, even if I'm going around the corner. Never in the face of some person who might be hurt by it, thinking it's about THEM. Poverty breeds contempt. If you can't understand that, you should kill yourself now and rid the world of the disease which is YOU. Poor people who have lived without the things most of us consider necessities are resentful of their lack of power, or even the ability to see their children have the things they need. You bet they're angry, then some guy whose needs are clearly being met tells him there's no real problem? Sorry folks, it ain't about skin colour- it's about being selfish pricks BECAUSE of skin color, and justifying it the same way.

By the way, if you're ever in the hood and don't know how to get along, try bumming a cigarette. Gives you something to talk about, and I have NEVER had anyone turn me down, unless they didn't smoke or were out themselves. People are all the same, we like to be givers, so let someone else have a turn. You might find yourself having a great time talking about your similarites rather than your differences. YOU try being the ones in a position of less advantage, it really does feel different.

I talk to people everywhere I go, sometimes I think I'm the luckiest fucker on earth.

 

[naughty]

Why is it that black people only see racism in white people?? There are black racist too!!

Pappy J ,

Read Dilznick's post just a few above your own and you will see that he says that "minorities" also engage in racial prejudice as well.Breathe, dear breathe!

naughty

 

[B_Stronzo]

You kinda hint at the interesting question of reparations, though. There seem to be inherent contradictions in the way African-Americans and native Americans have been treated in thsi regard. Is this only because the US is forced to adhere to the treaties it concluded with the tribes?

I own an 18th century pied-à-terre in one of the early coastal towns here in Massachusetts. My boyfriend and I bought it as an investment in '99 and haven't had the heart to sell it since we feel almost like caretakers having restored every inch of it to its 18th century appearance. The neighborhood is primarilly Cape Verdean and Hispanic and Black. We lived on site full-time when we were fixing the old house.

I've had considerable conversations with my neighbor immediately to the left facing our house in the city. His father's black and from Tennessee and his mother's Cape Verdean. His name is Michael.

Michael and I got to know each other very well when my boyfreind and I first started in on that house. He once said to me during a conversation "I don't think we should have to pay taxes, period".

I'm still not sure exactly what to make of that comment but there you have it for what it's worth.

Additionally, I've had a run in one time with Michael. I think (but I don't know) that he likes to get high alot. (Lucky him!) But his mood is changeable and one time when he appeared very high to me and he thought I was angry at him for borrowing our lawnmower without asking (I wasn't).. he said in (in front of an audience of no less than five other local residents of the same ethnicity as he) "Hey faggot, I'm talkin' to you!".

Yikes. I ruminated for days until I went to his door and explained that he and I shared a uniqueness that transcended (ideally) name calling and we'd "never gone down that road". He apologized but it's never been the same. My boyfriend and I rent the place out now so it's not really an issue but the 3 years we were in residence was an amazing experience in a myriad of ways. And not always a good one.

 

[B_Hung Muscle]

As everyone knows, I'm a big outspoken 'mo, but I do think there's a bit of a difference here.

I can hide (not that I should/could/would) my sexual orientation. African-Americans cannot hide their skin color.

And, I know, in my world to everything I do, I bring my whiteness and my maleness to the table.

I don't say this to imply that all is right with the world for gays. I know it's not. I've felt the sting of prejudice and been beaten up before. But I am saying I think the two things are not really analogous in everyday life.

 

[B_Stronzo]

As everyone knows, I'm a big outspoken 'mo, but I do think there's a bit of a difference here.

I can hide (not that I should/could/would) my sexual orientation. African-Americans cannot hide their skin color.

And, I know, in my world to everything I do, I bring my whiteness and my maleness to the table.

I don't say this to imply that all is right with the world for gays. I know it's not. I've felt the sting of prejudice and been beaten up before. But I am saying I think the two things are not really analogous in everyday life.

I agree somewhat.

I think many of our situations bear comparison. The fight for human rights, the generational suffering, the second class marginalization. Indeed someone's color is immediately more obviously a hinderance to the perception of a biased white observer. And that's no small thing. But I know my fair share of overtly gay men who you can see coming a mile away too. (not to exclude lesbians but I'll leave that to another thread)

But I was endlessly angered when I found many Bostonian blacks who were vocally opposed to the Massachusetts Supreme Court's decision to allow our Commonwealth the decency to permit its gay residents to legally marry. Trust me the numbers were significant. I was at those meetings.

It's seems, to me, the height of hypocrisy.

 

[HotBulge]

IBlacks have every opportunity in the world to be as successful as the next person, asian, white, hispanic - whatever.

Instead of bitching about Racism, how about taking charge of your own life and focus on developing yourself into an intelligent and successful person?

But Rikter8, Blacks are focusing on developing their intelligence to become successful. THey have been doing so for several generations when given the opportunity. The Civil Rights movement and various affirmative laction plans have focused strictly on access - i.e. the ability to step up to the plate, to have a seat at the table, etc. Every "minority" knows that once you have passed through the doors there is still the necessary task of learning and performing one's trade well. For that, there is no substitute. Successful minorities have known that. In many cases, they over-compensate for fear of being found deficient!

.

The same thing goes for College Financial Aid applications, where they ask for your ethnicity. - If it really didn't matter, why is it on there?
Who's getting a coupon?? - I know it aint me...

Why do we need to continue with Special Rights, when the world is FULL of EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES ?

Sadly, you are also out-of-date with your understanding of trends in higher education. Diversity within the student body population at most universities is still a goal. Higher education, however, has shifted its focus. Minority status, while important, is now weighted less than socio-economic status to reflect the far more troubling trend in painfully high tuition expenses.

Whenever the issue of "fairness" with affirmative action comes up, what people fail to account for is (1) the strategy of admissions committee and (2) the fact that the "marginal" slots for admission are highly variable. To address the first issue, admissions committees are various educational institutions not only want people who meet a base line of qualification but people who will best use the education that si given to them for society. Do you want a "narrow-minded" White medical school candidate, for example, who simply studied to achieve the highest test score, for example, or do you want the "minority candidate" who scored well but also shows promise of giving back to the community? (The example was an artificial contstruct).

As for marginality, when it comes to affirmative action, admissions committes are deliberating how they should distribute their "marginal case" slots. The people who ar exceptionally qualified - regardless of their race - will be granted entrance to the extent that schools can allow that. The only people who people who complain about the affirmative action are those whose situations are borderline anyhow. In realistic numbers,. we are often talking about 5 to 9 % of an admitted class anyhow.

Unfortunately Rikter8, your criticisms are terribly out-dated. If you would like a more-detailed explanation, then please send me a message privately.

 

[Lex]

Stronzo--

I want to suggest that you consider starting a separate thread on homophobia as to not blur the two issues. I understand the discrimination paralells can be drawn. I don't think this is the thread to do so.

 

[B_Stronzo]

Stronzo--

I want to suggest that you consider starting a separate thread on homophobia as to not blur the two issues. I understand the discrimination paralells can be drawn. I don't think this is the thread to do so.

Why don't you think so? Both the other poster and I were simply interjecting the premise. It's not an attempt to hijack the thing Lex. And beyond that given our recent differences, couldn't you have just let it go?

For the love of Pete you're relentless.

 

[Lex]

Issues of race, class, gender, religion and sexual orientation are all heavy issues.

As a minority within a minority, I appreciate their weight. As a minority, I know you do as well.

I (and others who have mentioned it) would rather not blur the issues here. This thread was started to discuss racism. Let's have the homophobia dicussion separately.

Each deserves its own right to shine in the light and bask in the full attention of the board.

 

[B_Stronzo]

Gotcha.

The forum's yours dude.

 

[madame_zora]

As everyone knows, I'm a big outspoken 'mo, but I do think there's a bit of a difference here.

I can hide (not that I should/could/would) my sexual orientation. African-Americans cannot hide their skin color.

And, I know, in my world to everything I do, I bring my whiteness and my maleness to the table.

I don't say this to imply that all is right with the world for gays. I know it's not. I've felt the sting of prejudice and been beaten up before. But I am saying I think the two things are not really analogous in everyday life.

Oh god, I got a chuckle out of that, HM.

When my daughter was in high school, she had a girlfriend, and it was known. She took a lot of crap for it, being in an Ohio public school under the bush regime, but one time in particular has stuck with us. one time, a black girl saw her and her g/f sitting together in the hallway before school and started lobbing "carpet muncher" insults at them, when clearly they were not involved in an act of sex. Her g/f got fed up after a few minutes of this and said "Well, you're black". That's all, no insult, just an acknowledgement of fact. The girl ran straight to the principal and told him she was a racist. She got called to the office, and when Bobi (Julianna's g/f) explained what had transpired, the PRINCIPAL of the school said she was still in the wrong "because at least you can hide what's wrong with you".

The man was SO FUCKING STUPID he didn't even realise he had just insulted them both far worse than he could even imagine. You almost HAVE to laugh at the supremely stupid, there just aren't enough bullets.

 

[dong20]

I myself have to fight this. Sometimes I get in my car and forget to lock the windows/doors. As I drive into the city, the same city where I grew up, I have to consciously resist the urge to lock the doors when I stop at a light where there are guys hanging on the corner.

Lex, I know what you mean, not so much here in London although carjacking/roadside theft does happen it's rare and I doubt my modest runabout would be a prime target! In some places I have felt the same desire but resisted, in others it was genuinely necessary e.g. in Joburg, Columbia and some years ago in Cambodia (I was there during the transition between civil war and UNTAC, there were no road rules in evidence and no-one stopped at junctions in town unless they had to and NEVER at night). On the whole for me it was more a vague sense of 'menace' than specific people around but your brain processes much that you don't consiously 'see'.

I grew up in an almost exclusively white part of the UK before I moved to London, it still is but I tell you what I said to my Mother recently about where I grew up and it's true, I would have more reservations about walking round my home town at night if I saw a bunch of white guys hanging out looking as though they're spoiling for a fight than I would here in London. The borough where I live is maybe 40% white, and perhaps it's age and experience but having spent the last 10 years mostly around africans I'll tend to feel far more relaxed if I see a bunch of black guys on the street than white whereas I suspect the real risk from either is about the same.

Perhaps experience and extensive travel has given me some insight into different cultural nuances and I hope dispelled some misconceptions I may have had about those cultures. I think like many people of the post war generation my parents exhibited some racism, benign maybe but it was there now I look back. I don't doubt I inherited some of it but I truly believe I don't exhibit racist behaviour conciously or unconsiously but social conditioning is like mud, it sticks and few of us are in a position to cast the first stone.

Someone said that this may be beyond solving, I truly hope not. We have come a long way in the last 100 years and removed racism from our laws, I have to believe we can take the next step and remove it from our hearts and minds or maybe I'm just in an overly idealist or naïve mood tonight. The Human race will have enough crap to deal with over the next 100 years without this self inflicted burden of stupidity as well.

 

[Rikter8]

But Rikter8, Blacks are focusing on developing their intelligence to become successful. THey have been doing so for several generations when given the opportunity. .

First of all...I didn't state that they were not Intellgent.
Secondly, they have every opportunity as everyone else.

Sadly, you are also out-of-date with your understanding of trends in higher education. Do you want a "narrow-minded" White medical school candidate, for example, who simply studied to achieve the highest test score, for example, or do you want the "minority candidate" who scored well but also shows promise of giving back to the community? (The example was an artificial contstruct).
.

The person with the high GPA, whatever color should be allowed to go onto the school of their choice, with the GPA as the transportation.
If you want to use Medical School for example - by the end of clinicals...the bad weeds and "Quick studiers" are heading for the door, while the true candidates will survive.

Unfortunately Rikter8, your criticisms are terribly out-dated. If you would like a more-detailed explanation, then please send me a message privately.

I'm not outdated, just Observant of my surroundings.
I wasn't criticizing anyone actually... Just posting what was on my mind as others did here.


Fill out your profile, Mr. 5 posts.

 

[Lex]

The person with the high GPA, whatever color should be allowed to go onto the school of their choice, with the GPA as the transportation.

If schools across the nation were equitable, If public schools in urban and rural areas had the same resources (teachers, physical plant, books) as public schools in middle- and upper-class neighborhoods, If an "A" was an "A" --- I would agree here.

Granting every child access to the same level of "free, appropriate public education"is critical to getting to that place you mention.

 

[dong20]

Granting every child access to the same level of "free, appropriate public education"is critical to getting to that place you mention.

You hit the nail on the head...effective education is the key to solving most apparent insolubilities (I think thats a made up word so I rest my case).

 

[Gisella]

My wife is latina but has very white skin, red hair and freckles. Without hearing her speak rapid fire Spanish, you might guess her ethnicity was Irish, not Mexican.

There have been a disappointingly high number of times we've been among groups of white middle class people and been confronted with some racist comment about Mexicans. The comment probably never would have been uttered had an acutal brown skinned person been present, but the speaker felt safe to say it since only "white" people were around.

Racism? Yup, just a bit better hidden now.

Yes, SpeedoGuy...

To all my Mexicans friends, i hope u understand that u are a maiority among minorities ( I think...)..when i say "they think im mexican" and i fight about it is because of the prejudice (that many of you know!) and because im not Mexican or Hispanic , im brazilian and speak portuguese as official language (and many others known by communities of immigrants inside Brazil and many unknow spoken by diferent Nations of "Indians") and all the others nations in Central and South Americas speak mostly spanish (or english or french or another language) and like who they are and be identify by their own uniquiness and history and the many different mixes inside their own cultures...They are so many and many of them!!!

Im cant say that im something that im not and many immigrants understand what im saying -that we like to be know by what we really are and not others think we are because of our look alike one another...like all asians, are they all chinese or japonese...for sure not! They come from different nations that seems to some all the same but are not.

Every people have a story to tell. Yes we are in America, i was not born here,i love this land and absorving things, learning and learning - but - when i become an American citzen i still have in my veins my ancestry and im pround of everyone of them. Many of you are 3rd, 4th... 6th generations of Americans born in here...but your first ancestor who came here must felt like me...i think.