Rape victims are NOT "survivors"

[Mal_the_Wolf]

When I read that I started to drag out my mail order "penn&teller" soapbox with yin yang on one side and the punisher skull and NRA stickers on the other. But when I read dollfette's post I realized the person and people that the dumb ass OP's schpeel slighted or made light of weren't victims and didn't need any help. And even IF harsh language and anger is a means to cover offense or pain, their strong girls and a brother, they'll survi ................... I mean......... They can......."HANDLE" it!........

I've said many times before, I am the worst to analyze and debate an issue until its nothing but numbers and logical reasoning instead of feelings, about everything that is except for some one who will hurt a woman or a child. For some reason I've never been able to reason that away. But since semantics are what you seem to have an issue with let's see if we can tip toe through THIS mine field shall we?

To "rape" a person, in this context at least, is to remove one's humanity by means of sexual violation lowering the person, for the duration of the experience at least, to beneath a human. More so to an animal or property. Further wounding by damaging the personal security of
Of one's sexuality and calling into question one's self worth, as blaming one's self for the attack, or more specifically the circumstances leading up to it. Using the physical act of love to demonstrate a person's insignificance or disregard them entirely for convince is a holocaust confined to a single individual, and in that they are left the choice to give up, or survive......
If you were victimized in this way I am sorry, and won't down play your struggle with hollow lines from movies and songs, I would never pretend to understand. I would also never dare to question your process or terms................... But in the words of an un tameable top heavy shrew

you choose your label but you can fuck right off choosing mine.

 

[HareTrinity]

Being raped means you couldnt handle sex?

NO, it doesn't mean that AT ALL, which is why sexually active people CAN be raped. What I'm saying is that the term "survivor" seems to imply that the victims nearly died even though, physically, rape CAN be nothing more than sex.

She'll be scarred for the rest of her life, don't try to tell her how to feel.

Uh... Didn't YOU just tell her how to feel?

Didn't make one thing clear in my original post; some rape victims ARE survivors, especially in the case of physically violent rapes.

Frequently, however, police and other people are willing to take it that no scars = no fight = no rape.

This is a fallacy that I think the "survivor" label encourages.

ManlyBanisters; that example there was surviving a fire. Fires kill; murderers kill; rape is still 1 below murder.

I have to say, that was a really extreme view because, some people don't get over their trauma and stay celibate the rest of their live's. Leaving their significate other and up to the point of not letting people touch them for the rest of their life. But then again that's to the extreme too, everything has a spectrum. Other stuff I found off with the post but just pointing that out.

I'm not trying to deny that some people ARE horribly scarred for life, I'm just arguing that they shouldn't be treated like that's necessarily the case.

Rape is an abuse of power. It is one form of trauma. Many who are raped Cannot struggle due to the situation they are placed in; the overpowering might be overwhelming force, drugs, weapons, restraints. The body may be harmed but also the mind is Always harmed.

I've had friends sent to hospital to have their jaws rewired after stranger attacks; there's no way they escaped from that mentally dandy. But they are still able to talk about that in public, whereas my friends who've been rape victims and child sexual abuse victims much less so (even though my friends are very sexually open). In my view, the idea that they've "been scarred for life" is offensive because it explains the looks rape victims get when they talk about their experiences.

Yes, I DO have friends who HAVE been raped and HAVE talked to me about it without argument. Generally, we talk over the situation, how they felt, and whatever else they want to talk about before the conversation naturally moves on. I don't think having an attitude of "HOLY CRAP YOU COULD HAVE DIED!!!" would make them feel comfortable about it. YES, it was a horrible thing, BUT it's also over and they don't need to worry about it. The relief was visible on some of them when I let them know that rape victims, including child rape victims, can move on to lead normal lives.

I don't think playing up the "lots of rape victims commit suicide" card would have helped, even though I AM aware this is also a fact.

Please tell us more Hare, about why this particular term bothers you. I do not think myself that it implies inability to heal from trauma, but rather the opposite.

That's an interesting point, but to me the term "survivor" implies it was necessarily physically serious and there was a real risk of death, and much as some rapes definitely are, calling all rape victims "rape survivors" sounds to me like it undermines the mental impact and potential lack of physical impact.

A person who was asleep for the entire rape has still been raped. If that attacker has no history of killing his victims, it seems inappropriate to call her a survivor because there was no risk of physical harm (in this scenario; in real rape there's always the risk, but this scenario's girl has been just as raped as much one who had chance and the will to put up a fight).

Also, people react in different ways; it's understandable for "survivors" to be upset but some rape victims are angry, or frankly used to the rape from abusive partners and so try to cover up their emotions when facing the police.

Needless to say, if the person reporting their rape isn't crying and apparently traumatised the police won't take them seriously.

Try telling veterans of war this and you'll probably get a million reasons why the statement doesn't make sense. People can get scarred for life.

People CAN be, yes, and rape victims CAN be traumatised for life by their experience, but they don't deserve to be treated as if this is automatically the case.

People survive domestic abuse, but I'd be the last one asking to be called survivor because of it. I didn't nearly die with that guy (thankfully), I didn't nearly die when someone else attempted rape; I have no desire to be called a "survivor" unless I risk death, and even then...

 

[Mal_the_Wolf]

Try telling veterans of war this and you'll probably get a million reasons why the statement doesn't make sense. People can get scarred for life.

Well...... You DO get.......better, in that V.A

"here's your secanol and valium for those screaming night terrors and here's your soma's vicodon and zanez for that agonizing pain that depresses you. All are refilled by phone when needed until your next visit in 2018"

.way of "better".

But hell to be perfectly honest if some one gave me the choice of being maimed for nothing but a junkie's dream come true a piece of plastic on a ribbon and a guarantee you will never over sleep in your life, or be raped?......... Blind fold me and lead me into the mine field captain. Some one injured in action or captured knows why, how and who in regards to the situation.

Stupid shit like this let's you know this bitch can spell war but never been near one, and I'd bet my paycheck the closest thing this "woman" *ahem knows about violation is mom and dad telling ....... "HER" *ahem...... To turn the damn music down

 

[ManlyBanisters]

And I repeat - your definition of survivor is skewed.

There is nothing in the word survivor that implies 'near death' or 'bad physical injury'.

If you look at the etymology of the word survive you will see it came to English from Latin (supervivere "live beyond, live longer than"), via French, and was first used in English in a strictly legal sense and meant to outlive (mostly relating to inheritance, I would imagine). It has come to mean to live beyond anything. (Online Etymology Dictionary)

It is, as dolfette points out, a more affirmative word than 'victim'.

 

[HareTrinity]

And I repeat - your definition of survivor is skewed.

There is nothing in the word survivor that implies 'near death' or 'bad physical injury'.

If you look at the etymology of the word survive you will see it came to English from Latin (supervivere "live beyond, live longer than"), via French, and was first used in English in a strictly legal sense and meant to outlive (mostly relating to inheritance, I would imagine). It has come to mean to live beyond anything. (Online Etymology Dictionary)

It is, as dolfette points out, a more affirmative word than 'victim'.

I can't think of any example of it being used not to imply a chance of death.

Edit: Even when you survive someone (AKA live longer than) the implication, as I see it, is that SOMEONE died and your achievement was not doing so first.

As for "victim" I think the word's common and covers everything from fraud, identity theft, to verbal assault as well as the higher end of the scale.

So in that sense I find the word victim far less charged, and I'm not sure "rape victim" is a phrase that needs more charging.

From looking at studies I find the problem with rape being reported and taken to court isn't that people think rape is fine but that they expect 1 reaction from victims.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

I can't think of any example of it being used not to imply a chance of death.

As for "victim" I think the word's common and covers everything from fraud, identity theft, to verbal assault as well as the higher end of the scale.

So in that sense I find the word victim far less charged, and I'm not sure "rape victim" is a phrase that needs more charging.

But dolfette doesn't find it less charged - why is she wrong and you right?

Saying that my great-aunt is the last survivor from her family does not imply she has been near death or injured.

In my experience as a Criminology student the problem with rape being reported and taken to court isn't that people think rape is fine but that they expect 1 reaction from victims.

Are you a first year student? You seem to be thinking about this in a very one dimensional way. Especially as you seem to think your take on the word 'survivor' in this context holds more weight than that of people in this thread who have actually been raped.

You need to learn to listen to alternative viewpoints.

 

[Tense0000]

"I am not going to get into it with you man....." - quote from the Breakfast Club

 

[mitchymo]

I believe that whilst 'victim' may be more accurate a term than 'survivor' it is essential to recognise that the physical act is not the damaging aspect of rape. The psychological impact is the most devastating and in recognition of that fact it is appropriate despite the definition to apply the term survivor because this is proactive in helping the 'victim' to a speedier recovery from their ordeal. Sexually abused people do not need to be reminded that they have been a victim to such an evil act by being referred to as a victim.

The reason also that child victims are more likely to make a fuller recovery is because they lack the awareness of what their ordeal meant.

I can't think of any crime which you can live through that is worse than rape, it is the theft of your own body and to suggest HareTrinity that rape CAN be nothing more than sex is utterly contemptable.

 

[HareTrinity]

Are you a first year student? You seem to be thinking about this in a very one dimensional way. Especially as you seem to think your take on the word 'survivor' in this context holds more weight than that of people in this thread who have actually been raped.

You need to learn to listen to alternative viewpoints.

Final year, heading to high grades.

I deliberately put my original post in a very one-sided way because (a) this has been really bugging me for a while and (b) I was hoping it would help get more discussion on the matter.

Unfortunately I clearly needed more proof reading; most people took me to mean that rape isn't a bad thing.

If most people think that "survivor" implies getting past, going beyond, and moving on, I am happy to accept that it's a far better term.

Certainly, if any victims want to use it for themselves they're welcome, I never meant to deny that.

My gut response to hearing this phrase was just that it's a step in the wrong direction for empowering rape victims and increasing rape conviction rates (it's under 10% in the UK, though over 90% go to prison when convicted).

 

[HareTrinity]

I can't think of any crime which you can live through that is worse than rape, it is the theft of your own body and to suggest HareTrinity that rape CAN be nothing more than sex is utterly contemptable.

PHYSICALLY nothing more than sex!

Obviously not all sex is rape.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

Edit: Even when you survive someone (AKA live longer than) the implication, as I see it, is that SOMEONE died and your achievement was not doing so first.

You're splitting hairs. Survive means live beyond - it does not imply death of, nor harm to, the survivor. You, however, seem to think that:

"Survivor" implies that they nearly died, and attaches a permanent stigma that isn't attached to people who DID nearly die.

You are somewhat contradicting yourself.

No wonder rape's so underreported; people who survived disasters get better, people who've gone through the trauma of seeing death get better, people who got brutally attacked and nearly died get better, but RAPE victims are permanently damaged?

Why does the word survivor in relation to disaster, witnessing death, brutal (not sexual) attack imply 'get better' but in the case of those raped you say it doesn't? You can't have it both ways.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

Certainly, if any victims want to use it for themselves they're welcome, I never meant to deny that.

And yet despite more than one person who has been raped saying they are NOT a victim and do not like the label you continue to label them 'victim' and graciously allow them to call themselves survivors. How very big of you.

 

[HareTrinity]

With that bit out of the way; I think the rest of your points were worth responding to.

I believe that whilst 'victim' may be more accurate a term than 'survivor' it is essential to recognise that the physical act is not the damaging aspect of rape. The psychological impact is the most devastating and in recognition of that fact it is appropriate despite the definition to apply the term survivor because this is proactive in helping the 'victim' to a speedier recovery from their ordeal. Sexually abused people do not need to be reminded that they have been a victim to such an evil act by being referred to as a victim.

I think you're ignoring that to some people the rape itself wasn't the worst aspect, let alone the most dangerous, especially in the cases of long term domestic abuse partners.

If the phrase was moving on to "mental abuse victims" that would highlight your view a lot better.

I think if anything this thread's highlighted that we have different views on what "survivor" means... Maybe I'm just too used to hearing it applied to accidents/illness/physical brutality, but I can't be the only one?

The reason also that child victims are more likely to make a fuller recovery is because they lack the awareness of what their ordeal meant.

This is true.

 

[mitchymo]

PHYSICALLY nothing more than sex!

Obviously not all sex is rape.

Physically it is sex + assault actually

 

[HareTrinity]

And yet despite more than one person who has been raped saying they are NOT a victim and do not like the label you continue to label them 'victim' and graciously allow them to call themselves survivors. How very big of you.

I know, if I had a 3rd term this would be easier...

Why does the word survivor in relation to disaster, witnessing death, brutal (not sexual) attack imply 'get better' but in the case of those raped you say it doesn't? You can't have it both ways.

If I were to say "I survived lunch today" it instantly makes you wonder what the hell I was eating, right?

survivor - definition of survivor by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
Now, I'm aware your points are supported here, and I admit that "survivor" can be taken to mean "to cope with (a trauma or setback); persevere after" and that much of my disagreement here could be from lack of exposure to this use.

In your case you clearly do believe that to be the case, and that has helped me understand why this term is gaining popularity.

Just hope I'm the only one with that misunderstanding...

 

[Mal_the_Wolf]

PHYSICALLY nothing more than sex!

Obviously not all sex is rape.

If I took a cheese grater and sanded your face down to the white meat, even without medical attention you"d live just fine despite being brutalized and ultimately disfigured
....... It'd kinda suck not having a face though

But yeah I know you heal up from sex....... But since you brought up war and trauma PRE disorder..... How about....... if you are lead into a room where your 2 kids are knelt down and you we're given a gun a told if you don't choose in front of them right then which one dies then the both get killed cause of you and then its hubby and mom........ You'd heal from the gashes the bailing wire they tied your hands behind your back with tore, you might even use a box of salt and not think about how they used the same brand to pour in the wounds from time to time to keep you from passing out........ But the point is, a scar on the flesh heals into a lesson you should remember, a scar on the mind and soul is a wound that can't heal and you can never forget


Just say you"re sorry and go look a pictures of big dicks

 

[HareTrinity]

Physically it is sex + assault actually

Assault can mean anything from verbal to physical. ALL sex, surgery and touching is potentially assault, and the matter moves back onto consent in most cases.

Ironically I have no problem with "assault" being used even when it is just verbal...

 

[HareTrinity]

If I took a cheese grater and sanded your face down to the white meat, even without medical attention you"d live just fine despite being brutalized and ultimately disfigured
....... It'd kinda suck not having a face though

But yeah I know you heal up from sex....... But since you brought up war and trauma PRE disorder..... [Etc]

I DIDN'T bring those up.

I DIDN'T say "you heal from sex therefore it's fine."

I DIDN'T say that "it's not trauma if you don't have wounds."

What I have been saying all along is that rape doesn't need wounds. This doesn't make it okay, this makes it, in many ways, WORSE, because it's bloody difficult to prove.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

Now, I'm aware your points are supported here, and I admit that "survivor" can be taken to mean "to cope with (a trauma or setback); persevere after" and that much of my disagreement here could be from lack of exposure to this use.

There is nothing in the word 'survive' or 'survivor' that implies coping either. It simply means to live beyond.

I realise you are trying to understand and interpret all of this. I'm glad you're open to different ideas. As a legal student who, presumably, wants to work as a legal professional of some kind or other you're going to have get out of the habit of inferring meanings that don't exist into things and of second guessing other people's interpretations and intentions.

 

[dolfette]

i'm reminded of a bumper sticker...

''hire a teenager now while they still know everything!''