Real ID Act is real trouble!

D_Tintagel_Demondong

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Were the the Weathermen not American? Were the SLA not American? Was Timothy McVeigh not American? Are there no second generation fundamentalist Islamists in the US who hold US passports? (like the UK tube bombers)

In other words I don't understand why you only feel under threat from non-US passport holders.

I was referring to the intent of the Real ID act to prevent non-Americans from staying in America and integrating themselves into the society in order to carry your a Trojan horse attack. I know that many threats come from within, but a method of authenticating people could also help prevent this. Should a person with a criminal record be allowed to buy 2 tons of fertilizer? If not, then how does a store owner know that they have a criminal record? Some method of identification might be needed.

It's already being done -- to some extent -- in Canada. When a pedophile is released from jail the government helps them move into a neighbourhood... but first they must inform all of the neighbors that this person is, indeed, a pedophile.
 

PussyWellington

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I was referring to the intent of the Real ID act to prevent non-Americans from staying in America and integrating themselves into the society in order to carry your a Trojan horse attack. I know that many threats come from within, but a method of authenticating people could also help prevent this. Should a person with a criminal record be allowed to buy 2 tons of fertilizer? If not, then how does a store owner know that they have a criminal record? Some method of identification might be needed.

It's already being done -- to some extent -- in Canada. When a pedophile is released from jail the government helps them move into a neighbourhood... but first they must inform all of the neighbors that this person is, indeed, a pedophile.


Are you Communist or a Fascist?
 

DC_DEEP

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Oh good so my first impression was correct. This is a very bad idea! I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to put GPS chips in them as well. FWIW-I'm against that too.

The fact it was tagged onto another bill that they knew had to pass is always a bad indicator. They should outlaw Christmas Tree Bills
Once REAL ID is firmly in place, they won't really need GPS chips in them, will they? I'm guessing that lots of things that don't "require ID" at this time, will in the future.

The state where I currently live refuses to allow me to register to vote or to obtain a driver's license, because I refuse to give them my social security number for those purposes. I've been fighting this for 4 years now. I have all the documents I need to prove identity and residence (including my passport, original birth certificate, and others). But without the social security number, they deny me my right to vote.

In another thread, one of our resident idiots actually made a good point about a related subject: the government doesn't have the time & resources to watch your every move. Well, true - to a degree. No, they don't have 3 agents for every citizen, watching and recording everything you do. But the wiretaps are out there, and the voice recognition software IS flagging keywords, then flagging your phone number. Federal 'bots are recording IP addresses of visits to "flagged" websites.

So, chances are, if you check out one "flagged" book from the library, or get placed (against your will) on a flagged mailing list, or do a google search on a couple of flagged keywords, or visit (intentionally or accidentally) a couple of flagged websites, you could end up in a special database as a "person of interest."

I just don't think that a national database, which can be cross-referenced to almost every aspect of your life, is a good idea. I don't think the federal government can be trusted to use that kind of information responsibly or honestly.

FWIW, if you rent a car, I can guarantee you it has a GPS/RFID chip.

And the last time you moved, and submitted a change of address to the USPS, they sold your information. Yep. The good ole postal service sells your name, old address, and new address to anyone willing to pay for it.

I mean, I agree that a driver's license is a privilege, but I disagree that only people who drive a car should have the extra protection provided by the government. Imagine somebody not being able to board a plane because they don't have a driver's license?
I was shocked that during a recent trip to one of the big electronics chains, when asked for ID at the checkout, the clerk told me my passport was not acceptable, a driver's license was required. They actually had to get a manager to do an override on the register. How's that for "ubiquitous"?
America is fast becoming so elitest with people being denied service because they don't have cell phones or Internet access.
This pops up in interesting and unexpected areas. I just recently purchased an expensive ($650) professional software suite, Adobe Photoshop CS3. Guess what? Even after paying that much for it, when you install, you only get a trial version. You MUST run the program, and direct it to connect to the internet to complete the registation before you have a permanent, full version on your computer. No more typing in the godawful registration code yourself. Regardless of how much you pay, you may not use the software without internet access.

the State of California Department of Motor Vehicles issues an Identification Card which is essentially a driver's license for people who don't drive. It's not required, but you'll need one if you want to prove your identity or age, as an example, in situations like buying cigarettes and beer or going thru airport security).
I think most states offer the option of getting a state ID instead of a driver's license.
 

ManlyBanisters

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I was referring to the intent of the Real ID act to prevent non-Americans from staying in America and integrating themselves into the society in order to carry your a Trojan horse attack. I know that many threats come from within, but a method of authenticating people could also help prevent this. Should a person with a criminal record be allowed to buy 2 tons of fertilizer? If not, then how does a store owner know that they have a criminal record? Some method of identification might be needed.

Sorry - I should have been less ambiguous - when I said 'you' I was more broadly referring to Americans that you specifically. The Real ID act seems to be an further step towards the insular - and America strikes me as being far too insular already.

It's already being done -- to some extent -- in Canada. When a pedophile is released from jail the government helps them move into a neighbourhood... but first they must inform all of the neighbors that this person is, indeed, a pedophile.

I also disagree with this in principle. If somebody is being released in the community then they have served their time and deserve to be allowed to live freely. With a crime like pedophilia, if there is a risk of reoffending then the person should not be released in to the community.
 

DC_DEEP

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DC, you're being a fear monger. Please tell us why this proposal is so horrible.
If I'm being a fear monger, you are being a naive sheeple.
The U.S. government has been tagging people with social security cards for decades. It's a simple and effective way of keeping tabs on people. It helps reduce "double dipping" fraud and keep the nation more secure.
I never said it didn't tag people with a social security number. That number, however, was designed to be used strictly as a taxpayer ID number. Not for general identification, not for voter registration (!), not any of that. Strictly for participation in the social security program. In fact, it is violation of federal law to use it for other purposes. States have absolutely no authority to require it for driver licensing or voter registration. I'm not sure why you think that my other forms of identification do not identify me.
Aside from the social security card, there are other ways that the government keeps tabs on people:

  • Biometrics has been used in policing for hundreds of years -- Fingerprinting has been used for over 100 years and "wanted" posters for even longer
  • Police can easily trace you if you have a cell phone
  • Websites use "beacons" to trace your online spending habits
  • Space spy satellites are powerful enough to discriminate between one person or another
  • DNA is being used to identify criminal suspects
Consider the extreme: a national DNA database. Would this be so awful? What is the worst that can happen if the government, or any citizen, can confirm your identity?
I'm not stupid, I'm well aware of biometrics and DNA. I am absolutely astounded that you see no difference in using CODIS and AFIS to track criminals, and using them to track non-criminal citizens.
Even the anonymity of the web doesn't protect you. Myspace was asked by the Feds to give them their database of users to supposedly keep tabs on pedophiles. Myspace politely declined.
Hmm. Maybe that's one of the reasons I don't use MySpace, and why I don't put my name, address, phone number, date of birth, and social security number in sites like this one.

As for the Feds illegally seizing records from websites and businesses and utilities and service providers (such as airlines), most of those entities don't even question a request from the Feds. No warrant, no probable cause; they just hand it over (usually in blatant violation of their privacy statements.)
I'd be more concerned with the Homeland Security act, "probable cause" is almost obsolete. The government can now follow you, hack your computer, tap your phone, or even arrest you for no good reason.
If you are referring to the so-called "Patriot Act," a large portion of that federal law is unconstitutional. They claim that simply by passing a law, they gain the "authority" to wiretap your phone, hack your computer, or detain you indefinitely without charges. But just because they claim it, that doesn't make it so. I can claim I'm Santa Claus.

Part of the bigger problem, though, is that if the people allow the government to continue these kinds of abuses, it will continue abusing. Unfortunately, though, too many people fall for the old "if you don't have anything to hide, you shouldn't worry." And once the government strips you of one inalienable right, they won't give it back willingly. Nor the next one. Nor the one after that.
In NJ you can get a non-drivers license, but it's still from the DMV.
I'm pretty sure that is precisely what I meant when I said "the option of getting a state ID rather than a driver's license." I guess I could have been more clear in stating that in most states, ALL official state ID comes from the DMV.
I also disagree with this in principle. If somebody is being released in the community then they have served their time and deserve to be allowed to live freely. With a crime like pedophilia, if there is a risk of reoffending then the person should not be released in to the community.
What a fucking concept!:rolleyes:
 

cocktaste

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"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." -Ben Franklin.

No truer words were spoken by my ancestor than these that apply to these dark days of governmental intrusion.

Please people, wake up before you are branded like cattle for the slaughter!

Don't be sheep. Be a human and think for yourselves! Sacrificing privacy is sacrificing liberty. Our country was founded on the principles of freedom and liberty. Security is very important. And we cease to be Americans when we sacrifice privacy/liberty/freedom for security. We come closer to a "Big Brother" state.

Now we know why people elected in the executive branch. Authoritarianism works for an entire group of people. It's a mental illness.
 

Gillette

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Real ID expands the government's "authority" to disregard laws designed to protect citizens. It is a bad idea, and should be fought tooth & nail.

Part of the bigger problem, though, is that if the people allow the government to continue these kinds of abuses, it will continue abusing. Unfortunately, though, too many people fall for the old "if you don't have anything to hide, you shouldn't worry." And once the government strips you of one inalienable right, they won't give it back willingly. Nor the next one. Nor the one after that.

"Gosh this Real ID thing is a great idea! But what if I lose my card? Why can't these doctors drop this silly circumcision thing and just implant all newborns with ID microchips instead?"

The real problem with things such as Real ID isn't the information itself as the fact that access to the information can so easily be abused.

If more missing children could be found because they were lojacked that would be a great thing. Unfortunately with things like the Patriot Act being introduced the government proves itself to have less interest in the individuals welfare than for it's own. We're far less likely to see children located than we are seeing someone arrested on suspicion of terrorism because the dined in a Vietnamese restaurant and were waited on by a woman whose husband works with someone with a cousin in Afghanistan.

It sounds like a stretch, maybe, but how much of one?
 

Qua

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Frankly, the real ID is exactly the same thing as the "Papers" required for travel in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. The Gov't would eventually set up checkpoints in between states and check National IDs at borders. "Papers, please!" Why on EARTH should we be required to show ID at borders within our own country?

What's even scarier is the linking of RFID chips in all manufactured and sold products (Gillete and some other companies already use them) and printed money with the national ID, so the government can track every purchase, transaction, product and bill, destroying the anonymity of cash and privacy of one's own purchases. I assume for national security right?
 

D_Tintagel_Demondong

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I guess we should just get rid of laminates used to protect celebrities, or microchips that help you find your lost pet, or GPS to help people who get lost in the woods, or doctor's licenses to keep quacks from practicing, or cookies that help you use LPSG.
 

ManlyBanisters

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I guess we should just get rid of laminates used to protect celebrities, or microchips that help you find your lost pet, or GPS to help people who get lost in the woods, or doctor's licenses to keep quacks from practicing, or cookies that help you use LPSG.

I think I see the point you are trying to make - but it is a poor argument, none of those things are compulsory.
 

ManlyBanisters

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My point was that individual identification can be very helpful. People are forced to get SSN cards and I don't hear many complain about them; they seem to see their usefulness.

As far as I understand the SSN thing you can't get paid without one. SSNs have become a fact of life - if they were just introducing them now I think I'd be similarly suspicious as I am about the Real ID act and insistance on biometric passports and such.

Travellers to the US are photographed and finger printed - presumably that data is stored somewhere and not just wiped every weekend. How much anti-foreigner security do you need?
 

chris28

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It is important to remember that prior to 9/11 the single worst act of terriorism happening on US soil was perpetrated by a blue eyed blond native born American citizen named Timothy McVeigh (the 1995 bombing of the Murrah Office Building in Oklahoma City). This is not to say that security measures need not be taken but based on the current criteria McVeigh would have most likely continued undetected as the threat he was. When restricting rights, even as a security measure, it is important to ensure that the results justify those actions.
 

JustAsking

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There has never been a government that has not abused their power, and there will never be one.

This is precisely the reason why our founding fathers amended the Constitiution with specific articles that protected citizens from their government.

When a government is able to obtain complete call records of any US citizen from the major telephone companies simply on request, you know we are dangerously close to compromising the great experiment that our founding father put into motion.

Those who want to restrict the liberties of other citizens merely for your own peace of mind (because it won't actually guarantee safety), I have to question their understanding of our unique system of government (or their respect for it).