Real ID Act is real trouble!

SpeedoGuy

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As Travellers to the US are photographed and finger printed - presumably that data is stored somewhere and not just wiped every weekend.

I've wondered about the non-US citizen reaction to mandatory fingerprinting on entry to the USA. Is it as offensive as I imagine it is to be treated as a potential criminal?

How much anti-foreigner security do you need?

Enough to allow certain politicians to puff up and posture until the next election cycle. After all, what's the big fuss about fingerpinting anyway? Its just some foreigners were talking about here. :rolleyes:
 

ManlyBanisters

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I've wondered about the non-US citizen reaction to mandatory fingerprinting on entry to the USA. Is it as offensive as I imagine it is to be treated as a potential criminal?

What really pisses me off is that it is done at point of departure - on my home soil, by employees of the Dept. of Homeland Security, I believe. Why my government allows yours to do it to me without insisting on doing it to you I just don't know.

Enough to allow certain politicians to puff up and posture until the next election cycle. After all, what's the big fuss about fingerpinting anyway? Its just some foreigners were talking about here. :rolleyes:

That does appear to be a general attitude - and yet precious few of the actual people I meet who hold a US passport seem to personally hold those views. Maybe that's just the ones who travel, huh?
 

Quite Irate

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The fact that the Patriot Act and several other pieces of legislation that compromise civil liberties were passed before The Real ID Act (which most likely will be passed) reveals Washington's true intentions rather well. People don't understand that citizens' rights are taken away by governments incrementally. There's no one piece of legislation to riot in the streets over. And if you ARE rioting in the streets over this Real ID business, most people will just think of you as some wacko leftist conspiracy theorist.

Some arguments are more eloquent than others. Some do a pretty good job of trying to convince others that legislation like this is in the best interest of the country. And some do a pretty good job going the other way. It doesn't really matter, either way. Because if your initial reaction isn't one of a sick stomach or a sense of newfound security, well...
 

JustAsking

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The fact that the Patriot Act and several other pieces of legislation that compromise civil liberties were passed before The Real ID Act (which most likely will be passed) reveals Washington's true intentions rather well. People don't understand that citizens' rights are taken away by governments incrementally. There's no one piece of legislation to riot in the streets over. And if you ARE rioting in the streets over this Real ID business, most people will just think of you as some wacko leftist conspiracy theorist.

Some arguments are more eloquent than others. Some do a pretty good job of trying to convince others that legislation like this is in the best interest of the country. And some do a pretty good job going the other way. It doesn't really matter, either way. Because if your initial reaction isn't one of a sick stomach or a sense of newfound security, well...
Irate,
Very eloquent, as usual. History shows that it is easy for a government to take rights away incrementally, and it also shows that it is very difficult to get them back.

It reminds me of the parable of boiling a live frog: How do you boil a frog alive? You place him in a pot of room temperature water and turn the heat on low. The water temperature will rise slowly enough such that the frog will acclimate to it and not jump out. At some point the water will cook the frog alive never realizing he was in danger.

Our own government has used wartime and fear-mongering repeatedly to take away rights. Such things as the Aliens and Seditions Act, and putting Asians in camps are good examples of that. I find it amazing that we even recoverred from some of those things with good work such as the Posse Comitatus Act.

After 9/11 did you enjoy seeing Marines in airports toting semi-automatic weapons? I don't know about you but it scared the daylights out of me.

Maintaining civil liberties, even in America, is like a dam holding back a huge lake. It takes constant viligance and maintenance to maintain its integrity. That is why it is said that for American citizens, dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
 

SpeedoGuy

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After 9/11 did you enjoy seeing Marines in airports toting semi-automatic weapons? I don't know about you but it scared the daylights out of me.

Ah, but I don't think they were combat trained Marines. At least in Oregon and California they weren't. Those patrolling troops were relatively green National Guardsmen ordered onto temporary duty by state governors.

That's not to disparage the National Guard by any means. But patrolling crowded airports in twos is really not what they're well trained for. If additional security measures really were needed (and I think the presence of armed troops post 9/11 was mainly for show), I would have preferred to see more city policemen or state troopers or professional law enforecement types, not combat troops.

Just my opinion.
 

chris28

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My point was that individual identification can be very helpful. People are forced to get SSN cards and I don't hear many complain about them; they seem to see their usefulness.
Actually when the system began there was considerable opposition to the government collecting the information required to issue the cards. To counter some of the uproar the government agreed that social security numbers (and cards) could only be used for the purpose of the Social Security Administration and for tax purposes and the cards themselves were printed with the statement "For Social Security and Tax Purposes - Not for Identification". The thing that most likely eliminated much of the opposition was the fact that ultimately the individual would be denied retirement benefits if they did not obtain the required number and card - money (or lack thereof) can have a major impact on the opinion of many.
 

Quite Irate

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Irate,
Very eloquent, as usual. History shows that it is easy for a government to take rights away incrementally, and it also shows that it is very difficult to get them back.

It reminds me of the parable of boiling a live frog: How do you boil a frog alive? You place him in a pot of room temperature water and turn the heat on low. The water temperature will rise slowly enough such that the frog will acclimate to it and not jump out. At some point the water will cook the frog alive never realizing he was in danger.

Our own government has used wartime and fear-mongering repeatedly to take away rights. Such things as the Aliens and Seditions Act, and putting Asians in camps are good examples of that. I find it amazing that we even recoverred from some of those things with good work such as the Posse Comitatus Act.

After 9/11 did you enjoy seeing Marines in airports toting semi-automatic weapons? I don't know about you but it scared the daylights out of me.

Maintaining civil liberties, even in America, is like a dam holding back a huge lake. It takes constant viligance and maintenance to maintain its integrity. That is why it is said that for American citizens, dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
As a normal middle or working class citizen, you've got to remember always that politicians are never on your side, no matter what they say (yes, some do good things, but that's a very small percentage of the total population). It's very pertinent in regards to presidential election periods such as this one. All these people, lining up to help get these candidates elected... sad state of affairs indeed.
 

b.c.

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Yes, great quote indeed. Most here have already offered great arguments why this stinks to high heaven.

What I can't understand is why didn't they just go ahead and decide to manufacture it in large suppository form since they're planning to bum f--k us up the arse like they always manage to do.
 

DC_DEEP

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Ah, but I don't think they were combat trained Marines. At least in Oregon and California they weren't. Those patrolling troops were relatively green National Guardsmen ordered onto temporary duty by state governors.
They may have used national guardsmen in California and Oregon, but it was mostly Marines in every airport I (unfortunately) had to travel through (in Dallas, Atlanta, and Chicago) - and all Marines are combat-ready, whether their MOS is tank gunner, cook, paper-pusher, or musician. They all have combat training and rifle range qualification.

You bring up an interesting point, though. The regular forces, the reserves, and the national guard all have VERY different missions; and very different training to accomplish those missions.

Actually when the system began there was considerable opposition to the government collecting the information required to issue the cards. To counter some of the uproar the government agreed that social security numbers (and cards) could only be used for the purpose of the Social Security Administration and for tax purposes and the cards themselves were printed with the statement "For Social Security and Tax Purposes - Not for Identification". The thing that most likely eliminated much of the opposition was the fact that ultimately the individual would be denied retirement benefits if they did not obtain the required number and card - money (or lack thereof) can have a major impact on the opinion of many.
Chris wins the prize. I bet you even actually know the Privacy Act, too, don't you?

The situation became quite unpleasant at Virginia DMV when I pointed out that they were in violation of several parts of the Privacy Act. The agent got overtly hostile with me when I asked them to comply with the Privacy Act. Even though I never raised my voice, I was told I had a choice - leave or deal with the police (who I'm sure would have arrested me on the panacea charge of "disorderly conduct.")

Now, back to the basic topic here. Has anyone paid any attention to Chertoff's take on this? "We can't tell you any of the details of the program, nor how any of that information will be databased and used; that would be a matter of national security. But you must comply." So, I guess we are supposed to trust the federal government when they tell us that every single entry in their national database, every single driver's license issued in this country, is 100% correct. Just like the "no-fly list." If there were an error, you could not question it, you could not correct it. If they used it for purposes besides those that were legal, you would have no way of knowing, and no recourse. Ladies and gents, regardless of how much the government tries to scare you into compliance, you should never allow them to put you in a "no fault, no recourse" sitation.

Every citizen should tell their elected representatives, under no uncertain terms, that the REAL ID program is unacceptable, and anyone who votes for it will not be re-elected. Period.
 

Bbucko

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For myriad reasons I choose to not elaborate here, I am entirely opposed to the REAL ID and all it represents.

The slippery slope has already begun, unfortunately. The pursuit of happiness has been lost.
 

DC_DEEP

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For myriad reasons I choose to not elaborate here, I am entirely opposed to the REAL ID and all it represents.

The slippery slope has already begun, unfortunately. The pursuit of happiness has been lost.
I bet I can guess a few of those reasons, Bbucko.

I've posted about this before, and got what I call the "blank stare" response.

I know you are aware of it, but I wonder how many others are: after the passage of the original "patriot act," health care providers were "required" to collect SSN as part of the new patient information packet, along with a waiver granting the government "authority" to demand your medical records from your provider, "in the name of national security."

When I moved to the DC area in 2002, and had to find all new optical, dental, and health care, I was shocked to find those papers in the new patient paperwork. On each of them, I left the SSN space blank, and on the waiver, I crossed it out & initialed it, and wrote in, "my medical records may not be released to any individual, agency, or entity, without my express, written, prior consent," initialed it, and got the receptionist to initial it. It may not really do any good, but at least I'm not playing the role of the sheeple.