Real IRA to 'resume attacks on UK

ManlyBanisters

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"military, political and economic targets" ... This sounds like open warfare. They should change their name from IRA to ICT - Irish Catholic Terrorists. The Queen's government should declare war on IRA and annihilate them.

Ah, but not all members of the various flavours of the IRA over the years are / have been Catholic. They are all Republicans, though, of one form or another.

Why do you feel the need to highlight the religion aspect and why do you want the killing to start again? And why do you think the British government would be any more successful this time than they were last time?
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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Sad.

Career terrorists who've outlived their usefulness and wannabes trying to stir up tension.

@ hilaire you're a bit nebulous .
On one hand you seem to be saying you disagree with the ira and their various killing sprees but on the other it seems like you're saying if a fringe group of people in this case the IRA have an opinion rejected by the masses and unlikely to win support through democratic avenues it's ok for them to lash out and terrorise ?

Injuring and blowing people up isn't gonna endear them to your politics or inspire them to come around to your way of thinking mmmmmkay - that should be rule one of how to make friends and influence people if it isn't already ;p



Yeah I never even remotely said that. I responded purely to Victoria's assertions about Bobby Sands and the other hunger strikers. And you have no idea what my politics are, I haven't discussed them, either in this thread or any other on this site.

And you can be sure that if I've already expressed my contempt for the provisional IRA, that my feelings about the RIRA are even more unequivocal.
 
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Jason

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This thread has managed to demonstrate the depth of feeling in issues around Northern Ireland.

The challenge for us all is to keep to the Peace Process. No one is claiming it is perfect - both sides have had to swallow a lot to make it happen, and both sides cringe at some of the impact. But it is a whole lot better than not having a Peace Process. With the Peace Process the killings and intimidation have mostly stopped - yes I know there are exceptions - and Northern Ireland has had a measure of prosperity unimaginable without it.

The IRA splinter groups need to be opposed by everyone. Every year that goes by without the Troubles surely makes a return that little bit less likely. There is now an economic downturn and it is that which seems to be providing a breeding ground for the extremists. Lets hope the economy bounces.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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"military, political and economic targets" ... This sounds like open warfare. They should change their name from IRA to ICT - Irish Catholic Terrorists. The Queen's government should declare war on IRA and annihilate them.


Considering that Republicanism and Catholicism are not the same thing, and that one need not be the latter to be the former (indeed many have not been) your suggested name change would be absurd.

"The Queen's government" by which I presume you mean the government of the Uniited Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, has actually been conclusively trounced once by the IRA (the Irish War of Independence, look it up), and was then fought to a standstill in round two during the Troubles, why would you expect it to be able to beat it on a third occassion?
 

Jason

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"The Queen's government" by which I presume you mean the government of the Uniited Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, has actually been conclusively trounced once by the IRA (the Irish War of Independence, look it up), and was then fought to a standstill in round two during the Troubles, why would you expect it to be able to beat it on a third occassion?

I take it that the question is hypothetical yet there are interesting elements nonetheless.

The Irish Republic came into existence through an armed struggle. The Peace Process in Northern Ireland has given real power to Sinn Fein, the political group closely linked with IRA. The Republican movement has been very strong and very successful.

What we are now doing through the Peace Process is to look at two traditions within the island of Ireland, each with their culture, heritage and aspirations. The two have to find ways of living together and getting on. And we may now be seeing the first glimmers of a new paradigm in Northern Ireland. If IRA splinter groups start up there is hope that the opposition would come from both Republican and Unionist people, from the mass of people who like the peace and don't want to go back to the Troubles.

There's also a change around the credibility of the cause espoused by the IRA splinters. Both the UK and Ireland are in the EU - with full freedom of movement, employment, etcetera. You can live in Newry and work in Drogheda, and vice versa. You can grow up in Belfast and go to university in Dublin. Whether you live in the UK or in the Irish Republic makes less and less difference on a day to day basis. A Republican party - Sinn Fein - is in (power-sharing) government in the NI Assembly (with Unionist DUP). There are also issues around the Irish Republic's economic catastrophe. We're only just starting to see the falling standard of living there - whatever the austerity in the UK (including NI) it is going to be dwarfed by the magnitude of the economic problems in Direland.

If push comes to shove it may be that the UK authorities could go in heavy on the IRA splinters and win. The IRA splinters do not have the level of support the IRA once had. They do not have finance from Noraid. They do not have access to Libyan weapons. They cannot claim a spurious justification in the constitution of the Irish Republic. Nor can they point to greater prosperity in the Irish Republic than in NI. Discrimination against Republicans in NI has greatly diminished, and there are means for dealing with cases which still occur. Yes if push comes to shove I think the UK authorities could sort out the IRA splinters. We're not now in the 1920s or the 1970s/1980s. The world has changed.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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I take it that the question is hypothetical yet there are interesting elements nonetheless.

The Irish Republic came into existence through an armed struggle. The Peace Process in Northern Ireland has given real power to Sinn Fein, the political group closely linked with IRA. The Republican movement has been very strong and very successful.

What we are now doing through the Peace Process is to look at two traditions within the island of Ireland, each with their culture, heritage and aspirations. The two have to find ways of living together and getting on. And we may now be seeing the first glimmers of a new paradigm in Northern Ireland. If IRA splinter groups start up there is hope that the opposition would come from both Republican and Unionist people, from the mass of people who like the peace and don't want to go back to the Troubles.

There's also a change around the credibility of the cause espoused by the IRA splinters. Both the UK and Ireland are in the EU - with full freedom of movement, employment, etcetera. You can live in Newry and work in Drogheda, and vice versa. You can grow up in Belfast and go to university in Dublin. Whether you live in the UK or in the Irish Republic makes less and less difference on a day to day basis. A Republican party - Sinn Fein - is in (power-sharing) government in the NI Assembly (with Unionist DUP). There are also issues around the Irish Republic's economic catastrophe. We're only just starting to see the falling standard of living there - whatever the austerity in the UK (including NI) it is going to be dwarfed by the magnitude of the economic problems in Direland.

If push comes to shove it may be that the UK authorities could go in heavy on the IRA splinters and win. The IRA splinters do not have the level of support the IRA once had. They do not have finance from Noraid. They do not have access to Libyan weapons. They cannot claim a spurious justification in the constitution of the Irish Republic. Nor can they point to greater prosperity in the Irish Republic than in NI. Discrimination against Republicans in NI has greatly diminished, and there are means for dealing with cases which still occur. Yes if push comes to shove I think the UK authorities could sort out the IRA splinters. We're not now in the 1920s or the 1970s/1980s. The world has changed.



Direland? Really? Your evident glee at Ireland's current economic distress is pretty ugly. Do you frequently read the Daily Mail by any chance?
 

Jason

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Direland has been widely used in the Irish Republic - the term has been part of people's acceptance of the seriousness of the economic problems and their willingness to accept austerity. I am very distressed by the economic problems of the Irish Republic and the real misery they have already caused and will continue to cause to people living there. I believe the problems were all but inevitable, and I also believe that Ireland (like Greece and others) will find that there is no solution within the Euro. But that's neither here nor there - whatever happens people are getting hurt.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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Direland has been widely used in the Irish Republic - the term has been part of people's acceptance of the seriousness of the economic problems and their willingness to accept austerity. I am very distressed by the economic problems of the Irish Republic and the real misery they have already caused and will continue to cause to people living there. I believe the problems were all but inevitable, and I also believe that Ireland (like Greece and others) will find that there is no solution within the Euro. But that's neither here nor there - whatever happens people are getting hurt.


There is no such place as the "Irish Republic" :rolleyes: And I'm to believe you have a finger on the pulse of this mythical place am I? You do realise how offensive calling this country the Irish Republic is don't you?
 
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Jason

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There is no such place as the "Irish Republic" :rolleyes: And I'm to believe you have a finger on the pulse of this mythical place am I? You do realise how offensive calling this country the Irish Republic is don't you?

The official name is (in English) "Republic of Ireland" and (in Irish) "Éire". The name "Irish Republic" was the term used by the 1916 proclamation of independence during the Easter Rising and ratified by Irish MPs in 1918. Today it is frequently used in both the Republic or Ireland and in the UK as a shorthand for Republic of Ireland when what is meant is specifically the territory of the Republic of Ireland (not the whole island of Ireland). No offense is meant by the use of this name, nor is it reasonable for offense to be taken at a form of the name adopted by the founders of what they themselves styled the Irish Republic and still used by many who live there. :tongue:

This thread is fast illustrating the problems in Northern Ireland where each side has their perceived causes of grievance at the other side worked out to the nth degree and both sides are willing to take offense at anything and nothing. Bluntly, while it is worthwhile trying to get names right, there is a limit to how much they really matter. Foreigners often say England when they mean UK, and the distinction between GB and UK is lost to most of the world. The Irish Republic has also been officially called Southern Ireland and the Irish Free State (and just Free State, at least in colloquial usage), with Republic of Ireland just its most recent form. Northern Ireland is frequently termed Ulster (and yes I know three counties of Ulster are outside Northern Ireland) and many people who live there use this term themselves.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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The official name is (in English) "Republic of Ireland" and (in Irish) "Éire". The name "Irish Republic" was the term used by the 1916 proclamation of independence during the Easter Rising and ratified by Irish MPs in 1918. Today it is frequently used in both the Republic or Ireland and in the UK as a shorthand for Republic of Ireland when what is meant is specifically the territory of the Republic of Ireland (not the whole island of Ireland). No offense is meant by the use of this name, nor is it reasonable for offense to be taken at a form of the name adopted by the founders of what they themselves styled the Irish Republic and still used by many who live there. :tongue:

This thread is fast illustrating the problems in Northern Ireland where each side has their perceived causes of grievance at the other side worked out to the nth degree and both sides are willing to take offense at anything and nothing. Bluntly, while it is worthwhile trying to get names right, there is a limit to how much they really matter. Foreigners often say England when they mean UK, and the distinction between GB and UK is lost to most of the world. The Irish Republic has also been officially called Southern Ireland and the Irish Free State (and just Free State, at least in colloquial usage), with Republic of Ireland just its most recent form. Northern Ireland is frequently termed Ulster (and yes I know three counties of Ulster are outside Northern Ireland) and many people who live there use this term themselves.




I went to school here, and Irish history is taught in school (surprise surprise) just as British history is taught in British schools, I don't need a garbled history lesson from someone who's clearly only partially acquainted with the details and facts.

The official name of this country is Ireland or Éire, those are the names which passports carry and which are used on official documents, the long form descriptive title of this country is the Republic of Ireland, this is also used for official purposes but it isn't the actual name.

If you don't understand why calling Ireland the Irish Republic is offensive (and why taking offense at its use is perfectly legitimate) then we have very little else to talk about. All I will say is that most Irish people upon hearing you use that name would probably be far too polite to let you know they even noticed it, but they will think you are an ignorant, boorish, patronising fool.


Historically the use of the name the Irish Republic was pointed when used by British people and not in the slightest bit innocent.


I'll be honest with you, being as I am English and living in Ireland it embarrasses me intensely when I read or hear English people pontificating sanctimoniously about Ireland and its history and politics because all too often they have no real understanding of what they're talking about and think themselves far better informed than they actually are.

After years of listening to English acquaintances, and British political punditry on the topic, I have learnt to studiously avoid holding forth on these issues, because I am genuinely mindful of the taint of ignorance which comes with discussions of this kind voiced loudly in English accents.
 
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BIG_DAVE

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Suprise suprise. One mention of those 3 letters and out jumps the victoria or victor is it? and Jason. One a bigot with no brains with no bigot who wants brains.

Jason again you've shown an in depth lack of any knowledge of the Island of Ireland, I'm actually quite amused and somewhat impressed by your ability to need neither facts or in some cases ANY real understanding of a subject to have an opinion on it then go ahead and voice it.

And Victor, hey why not just join the BNP you seem to want to go back to the good old days of no dogs, no blacks and no Irish. But guess what? you can get as angry as you want those days are long gone. The british have moved on, why not catch up wee man?

hilaire it might be worth having a read through this thread to see who your dealing with regarding these two.

As for the realers? Lets have a look at the events surrounding the only two mentionable operations they've had. The omagh bomb, came at a time that only hindered the republican campaign, it was pointless and it only served as a tool to end violence in the 6 counties.

Who did that benefit? The british knew about the whole thing, Irish secret service followed the car that went off in omagh the whole way to the border and passed the information on to the british security forces who done nothing but sit by and watch. They knew before the Irish SS did. They had an operative work on the operation in the RIRA.

then one of the biggest news stories to hit home in the 6 happened which was british special forces were STILL operating in the 6 counties. Sinn Fein were outraged so they were! I mean this wasn't part of the good friday agreement the british have gone back on thier word. The british army were to withdraw from operations in NI back in 2002 when operation banner ended. That way the provo's could get rid of their weapons and the people would support them in doing so.

But hold on, 2 days after that story broke a shower of sappers get shot outside masserene barracks in antrim and 2 get killed.

The next morning here's sinn fein saying they are traitors as the provo's have the monopoly on killing brits.


There's a few things that bother me about that.

Firstly how quick Sinn Fein changed their opinions that were so strong either way.

Secondly that was the ONLY successful operation the RIRA have had since then considering there's been hundreds of attempts since.

Thirdly how quick Colin Duffy was lifted, a man who's spent YEARS in jail and has NEVER been convicted.

It was found to be breaching his human rights that he was in jail for so long so then they changed the charge and put him right back into prison after been told he could go free in a court of law.


The Realers are at best british tabloids boogeymen and at worst british agents.

As for the CIRA well last time I was home I remember reading in the Irish news how they smashed a drug ring worth over 600k they had pics of them with the drugs and they handed them over to a local priest who then gave them to the ruc/psni. The peelers claimed it was thier bust over a week later but hey any man who will risk his safety, freedom or life to protect his community MY community has my vote and my respect.
 

Drifterwood

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As for the realers? Lets have a look at the events surrounding the only two mentionable operations they've had. The omagh bomb, came at a time that only hindered the republican campaign, it was pointless and it only served as a tool to end violence in the 6 counties.

Who did that benefit? The british knew about the whole thing, Irish secret service followed the car that went off in omagh the whole way to the border and passed the information on to the british security forces who done nothing but sit by and watch. They knew before the Irish SS did. They had an operative work on the operation in the RIRA.

Omagh is what I associate with the RIRA, Dave, and as such they can rot.

Were the British really supposed not to have a secret service presence in the North? Was that really sensible, given actions such as Omagh?

I never understood why they targeted Omagh, can you enlighten me/us?
 

ManlyBanisters

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As for the CIRA well last time I was home I remember reading in the Irish news how they smashed a drug ring worth over 600k they had pics of them with the drugs and they handed them over to a local priest who then gave them to the ruc/psni. The peelers claimed it was thier bust over a week later but hey any man who will risk his safety, freedom or life to protect his community MY community has my vote and my respect.

Aaaaaaaand you lost me.

The IRA (p, c, r - take your pick) do indeed have a reputation for keeping the drug running, organised criminals in their place, or indeed without a place. They are very big at pushing that on a community level. There are two reasons they do this - one, so people (like you) will say 'well they have the interest of the community at heart' and two, so that the drugs they themselves bring onto the island and distribute to their network of suppliers have the lion's share of the market. It isn't about saving the community from the peril of drugs - it is about having a monopoly.

I lived in a well dodgy area of Dublin for part of my student years and the local provos made a big show of chasing out several heroin dealers (beating one of them to death as an 'example' to the others - nice, huh?). But funnily enough the heroin dealing did not stop completely in the area, there were still two guys left the Ra didn't go after. Hummity-hum - I wonder why... :rolleyes:

Don't be fooled. They are fucking criminals and terrorists and they don't give a flying fuck about your community.
 
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Do we really need this now? I don't know what they hope to gain from this if they go through with it
 

Freddie36

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I find it quite puzzling that clear explanations and well informed arguments by Hilaire or Big Dave are twisted as implicit support for the IRA. It is in my view the best way to push any person who resents the partition of Ireland --in my non-Irish non-British view the feeling of injustice is quite understandable-- into tolerating violence. Fortunately, as Big Dave pointed many British people have moved on!

We can't just do as if there was no issue at all , or use the IRA to stop talking about the issue.

Have you seen the movie "In the Name of the Father"?
 
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Freddie36

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No I have not. To tell the truth I am not so interested about the IRA itself so I never read the book. Why not when I have time.

The substance of my point is somewhere else. It is that what ever one knows/thinks of the IRA or comparable organisations in other conflict situations (ETA etc. ) it is very easy to use these organisations to dismiss the sense of injustice that led to their creation and thriving.

Over many centuries Ireland went through traumatic events. Harsh foreign rule, plantations, repression etc. As a result of this History the Island is partitioned. Once has just to deal with this fact and be very careful.
 

ManlyBanisters

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That's a reasonable point, Freddie. It's odd in some ways. It depends on the context, doesn't it - I wonder how many of us think of the ANC as a former terrorist group. They certainly used terror tactics, but the vast majority of us here will have opposed Apartheid in South Africa and therefore identify with their cause. I don't think of the IRA that emerged after 1916 as terrorists, I think of them as freedom fighters. I identify with their cause and the need for armed struggle at the time. My feelings about the IRA of the 30s, 40s and 50s are different and my feelings about the various groups of the 60s through to the Good Friday Agreement different again.

I suppose a good way to illustrate to non-Irish people how much of Ireland feels about the Provisional IRA (of the 70s, 80, 90s) is to postulate a situation where a splinter group of the ANC had continued terrorist actions against white South Africans after the abolition of Apartheid. Or perhaps it be more accurate to suggest a scenario in which South Africa had split to White SA and Black SA and, while the blacks in White SA were not officially still in an Apartheid system, oppression continued nonetheless. How do people think they would feel about a 'Provisional ANC' committing acts of terror against the white civilians of White SA in the name of a united Black South Africa?

It is not, forgive the awful pun, a black and white situation.

BTW: My post after Big_dave's was not a dismissal of anything other than the fact that certain Republican terrorist groups put themselves forward as the 'good guys' in the war on drugs, and they aren't.