Real IRA to 'resume attacks on UK

[ManlyBanisters]

ok so a womans opinion. If you have no actual knowledge of how the IRA operate in the north then how do you know they're just criminals? It seems your going to say your bit and anyone who's thoughts differ from you must be militant in their opinions.

if your not going to debate then why reply?

I have a very clear understanding of how the Republicans and the Unionists operate in the North, and in the Republic. Clearer than you, it would seem.

Now, I'm not saying there's no sectarian bother from nationalists but the people who have been killed in sectarian attacks have been catholic.

Liar.

The Continuity IRA has claimed responsibility for killing Const. Stephen Carroll, who was shot in the head at close range while sitting in a patrol car that was serving as backup to an emergency call in Craigavon, 40 kilometres southwest of Belfast.​

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/03/10/ira-claim.html​

​

As for being pro-IRA begrudingly yes I am, until something better comes along. Cuz at the min the shinners are full of shite and have done nothing to protect the nationalist community since 98.

I agree the situation is not perfect - steering it back to the full blown terrorist on terrorist, terrorist on civilian sectarian violence of the 70s and 80s is not the way forward. And that's all the operational splinters of the IRA will ever do for you and your community. Cop on, or better still stop just mouthing off and whinging, get your lazy arse sorted out and go do something peaceful and legal to improve your country's situation. The only way to peacefully change the establishment is from inside. You're 27 - join the PSNI.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

MB's posts are (almost) always brilliance regardless of the topic. She's one of my top-10 most trusted posters here; she almost never gets it wrong :07:

:redface: :kiss:

 

[Freddie36]

Cop on, or better still stop just mouthing off and whinging, get your lazy arse sorted out and go do something peaceful and legal to improve your country's situation.
---

If this exhortation is directed towards those who chose violent means I doubt that wishful thinking will have a big impact.

Actually throughout the course of Irish history many actions have been peaceful and legal. It is fair to say that the legal and peaceful demands for home rule did not produce very convincing results in the 19th and early 20th centuries. At the same time, whatever one may think, it is difficult to contest that uprising and armed actions led to the establishment of Irish Free State. There may have been another path like in India but what happened happened. In this context one has to demonstrate that peace can achieve better results than war. I think this is what the fragile peace process is trying to demonstrate. But it has to be serious and convincing otherwise he now somwhat marginal "real" IRA may thrive.

 

[BIG_DAVE]

I have a very clear understanding of how the Republicans and the Unionists operate in the North, and in the Republic. Clearer than you, it would seem.

Aye, I'll agree to that when you start to demonstrate it. The only thing you seem to have an understanding of is your opinion and everyone else it would seem is wrong.

Liar.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/03/10/ira-claim.html​

​

Just an absoulte awe inspiring argument. Also a link to a psni man who was killed, whats your point? I hope it's not trying to say that the contos killed the peeler cuz he was a catholic.

Maybe you should actually find out the circumstances in which your man was killed there.

The contos made an emergancy call to the police and he was the first man to show up.

I agree the situation is not perfect - steering it back to the full blown terrorist on terrorist, terrorist on civilian sectarian violence of the 70s and 80s is not the way forward. And that's all the operational splinters of the IRA will ever do for you and your community.

If you knew what it was like in the 6 you'd know it's at boiling point already and I'd sure as fuck would want the ra on my streets when it all goes off again. However, I don't need to tell you that you don't know what it's like in the 6. You did after all go to uni in dublin.

Cop on, or better still stop just mouthing off and whinging, get your lazy arse sorted out and go do something peaceful and legal to improve your country's situation. The only way to peacefully change the establishment is from inside. You're 27 - join the PSNI.

Join the psni? to sit by and watch the next kevin mcdaid murdered under loyalist feet? Sure they'd love another taig to come along wouldn't they? The psni had thier chance and blew it. I hand the policing of my community over to the ra and they've PROVEN themselves worthy of such a task.

If you'd like I could go into why the psni are still heavy handed, secterian and are nothing more than the RUC with a new name.


But sure you'd already know that, more than me it would seem.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

If this exhortation is directed towards those who chose violent means I doubt that wishful thinking will have a big impact.

That was directed at Dave.

Actually throughout the course of Irish history many actions have been peaceful and legal. It is fair to say that the legal and peaceful demands for home rule did not produce very convincing results in the 19th and early 20th centuries. At the same time, whatever one may think, it is difficult to contest that uprising and armed actions led to the establishment of Irish Free State. There may have been another path like in India but what happened happened. In this context one has to demonstrate that peace can achieve better results than war. I think this is what the fragile peace process is trying to demonstrate. But it has to be serious and convincing otherwise he now somwhat marginal "real" IRA may thrive.

You're clearly not reading my posts at all well, if at all, if you think I don't know this. It was Daniel O'Connell (link for the lazy) who inspired Gandhi and MLK in their political philosophies.

Dave - I really am done with you now. You have no basis for your assumption of my ignorance bar the fact you disagree with me. And I can tell that's the case because it is what you immediately accuse me of. You're a terrorist apologist. It's people like you that keep all this shit going by passing these fucked up values on to their kids. I hope you don't find out the hard way how wrong you are about those 'community protectors' you place so much faith in.

 

[Freddie36]

You're clearly not reading my posts at all well, if at all,
---
Was just an historian's perspective on how Ireland built its state. Make what you want of it. Neck picking is not my thing, one cannot just do as if Ireland has no History that's all.

I am not Irish so I am not here to take a position. But I have a History background and I feel I can contribute to the debate. It is just important to go back to historical developments to comprehend what's happening. Not only in Ireland, everywhere.

You mention O'Connell. A great historical figure indeed. He achieved the right for Catholics to sit in Westminster. It is indeed worth remembering that some Irish have been discriminated by virtue of their religion. This is certainly one factor contributing to the appeal of the Republican project. The republican project does not make a difference between citizens on the basis of their religious affiliations.

 

[BIG_DAVE]

Dave - I really am done with you now. You have no basis for your assumption of my ignorance bar the fact you disagree with me. And I can tell that's the case because it is what you immediately accuse me of. You're a terrorist apologist. It's people like you that keep all this shit going by passing these fucked up values on to their kids. I hope you don't find out the hard way how wrong you are about those 'community protectors' you place so much faith in.

My assumption of your ignorace is you've yet to say anything based on fact, Just your opinion.

I tell you that the sectairian killings in NI have only happened to catholics, you reply with the death of carroll, who could of been protestant or catholic he was just unlucky to be the first person to turn up to an emergancy call and it was an act of war not "some taig" walking to the shops.

and I see you use the word terrorist, I saw many acts of it growing up by the british army so judging by your use that would also make the orginal ra terrorists too? surely not. They had something of a victory winning the 26 so they got to write thier own history, not have the british write it for them.

You fail to see the fact the the p/c/rira are just splinters from the original IRA of collins/dev yet completely different according to you when they commited the same campaign of guerrilla warfare against the british.


You fail to see the provo's were born out of necessity and managed to save the lives of literally thousands of nationalists in the north.


You also I'm sure have NEVER lived in the 6 counties so please don't try and tell me you know more about the situation of a nationalist living there than me.


Ignorance is an understatement, your pure head up your hole.


Other than that I think your dead on.

 

[Jason]

Part of the problems of Ireland is the constant appeal to history. Yes people should know about the Siege of Derry and the Potato Famine and lots more. But no appeal to history justifies present violence.

If people in either community in NI or the RofI feel that something is wrong there are legitimate ways of getting it discussed and changed. NI has a power-sharing government and the concept of shared power now runs through the institutions. If something within the Good Friday Agreement isn't working it can be identified and changed as part of the Peace Process. The emphasis should be on what happens now to make things right for everyone.

There is also a mechanism for bringing about Irish reunion, the goal of Sinn Fein. It will happen if BOTH a majority in NI want it AND the RofI is prepared to accept NI as part of the RofI. This democratic position reflects international law and is agreed by the UK and RofI. There is also the possibility of much closer co-opertion between the UK and RofI (and Channel Islands and Isle of Man) through the Council of the Isles - a body at the moment little more than a talking shop, but with the potential to grow in power.

The Peace Process offers a decent future for everyone. And where it isn't working properly it can be reformed.

 

[Freddie36]

Sure , let's forget the past and organise a 3 day rock concert that degenerates into a mega-orgy to solve everything.

 

[BIG_DAVE]

The Peace Process offers a decent future for everyone. And where it isn't working properly it can be reformed.

It's had 10 years and still nothings changed for the nationalist population. Why do you insist on ignoring that fact?

 

[BIG_DAVE]

Sure , let's forget the past and organise a 3 day rock concert that degenerates into a mega-orgy to solve everything.

haha! I'd go to that.

 

[Jason]

It's had 10 years and still nothings changed for the nationalist population. Why do you insist on ignoring that fact?

It has delivered enormous changes for both populations. These include:
1) Peace. There is peace. However fragile there is peace. People are not being killed. PEACE!
2) Security. A lot less intrusive than it was.
3) Government which reflects the Nationalist community - SF in government and with SF holding ministerial roles.
4) Prosperity and employment. Yes I know there's a downturn now, but it has been good and still isn't all that bad.
5) Investment - both by business and government. Look at the range of shops now in Belfast (and throughout NI).
6) Infrastructure. Long planned but realised alongside the Peace Process. Better transport for example - Belfast's harbour bridge, Enterprise to Dublin as a quality service, good air links, better ferry links.
7) Reconciliation. The Bloody Sunday inquiry, the Claudy inquiry - we are dealing with the past. The UK govt have apologised over Bloody Sunday.

Both communities have gained so very much through the peace process. There have been fundamental changes in almost every area of daily life.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Part of the problems of Ireland is the constant appeal to history. Yes people should know about the Siege of Derry and the Potato Famine and lots more. But no appeal to history justifies present violence.

No but to be fair, it's only an appeal to History which justifies the continued union of Northern Ireland with Britain. Or for that matter England's union with Scotland or dominance of Wales. If history doesn't justify violence (and I agree with you it doesn't always) then I tend to think it shouldn't justify forced or coerced political unions between states or portions of states.

 

[Jason]

No but to be fair, it's only an appeal to History which justifies the continued union of Northern Ireland with Britain. Or for that matter England's union with Scotland or dominance of Wales. If history doesn't justify violence (and I agree with you it doesn't always) then I tend to think it shouldn't justify forced or coerced political unions between states or portions of states.

Agreed.

Nation states, all of them, have come about by messy, historical processes. Within Great Britain the processes which linked the three nations of England, Wales and Scotland would not pass scrutiny today for fairness or decency. But where our system is strong is that these systems can be changed as the people want change. Right now Scotland and Wales - and for that matter England - are part of the UK because that is what a majority of their people want. Scotland has just decided not to hold a referendum on independence. There is nowhere near a majority in favour of independence in Wales.

Ireland is more messy - even leaving aside its incorporation within the UK. The 1922 partition was in keeping with the political philosophy of the age which at the end of the first world war saw around a dozen new nations emerge in Europe on the basis of a shared ethnicity, religion, language, culture, aspiration. We didn't then say "Austro-Hungary is a country, we mustn't break it up". Rather we broke it down along the boundaries of its administrative units. The Irish admistrative unit in 1922 was the county and an appeal to the majority demographic in each county was correct application of the international law that came out of the Treaty of Versailles. The problem is that we wouldn't do it this way today. Today the logic would be that there would be a whole-Ireland referendum on the issue and the whole would either stay as part of the UK or become independent. But that wasn't the law then.

The duration of the partition is crucial to its present status. I don't think there is a clear statement of X years creates a right to exist, but the last few years have consistently argued that states or territories created in 1945 have a right to exist. We've permitted the breakup of Yugoslavia into its constituent parts but we've not allowed those parts to themselves break up, or bits to break away and join their neighbour. The international law position is clear - NI remains part of the UK until a majority of its people vote for something else. This might be independence or (if the RofI wants it) merger with Ireland - but the people of NI have absolute control.

This is of course the rub for the UK. Of course the UK would love NI to leave the UK. NI is a security headache, gives the UK a bad press around the world, costs more than it earns, does not sit on an oil field. But it can't happen because international law doesn't permit the UK to walk away -and anyway the UK would get sucked into the inevitable blood bath.

What do Republicans in NI want the UK to do? Leave? Maybe the RofI would say welcome - I don't know (actually I think not). Maybe the majority in NI would declare independence as a DUP-led nation. I'm pretty sure the result would be a blood-bath Yugoslavia style. Or maybe the UK should spend a decade or so persecuting the Unionist community to break their resolve then force the RofI to take control of NI.
What other solution can there be other than the will of the people of the NI through the Peace Process?

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

We've permitted the breakup of Yugoslavia into its constituent parts but we've not allowed those parts to themselves break up, or bits to break away and join their neighbour.

Kosovo?
It had been part of Serbia since 1918 ... which you might call a long time, or not.

Maybe the majority in NI would declare independence as a DUP-led nation. I'm pretty sure the result would be a blood-bath Yugoslavia style.

Could it really match the sheer scale of what happened in Yugoslavia?
(I suppose it might in the roughest way ... but isn't that quite a stretch? Think of what the Croats were doing during the Second World War. I don't think there is anything like that in the history of the British Isles.)

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Could it really match the sheer scale of what happened in Yugoslavia?
(I suppose it might in the roughest way ... but isn't that quite a stretch? Think of what the Croats were doing during the Second World War. I don't think there is anything like that in the history of the British Isles.)

The Black and Tans- Black and Tans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia couldn't be seen as being as reprehensible as the Ustaše but the effect of there presence in Ireland was analogous.

There were other similar groups in earlier periods who probably did much worse things too.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

The Black and Tans- Black and Tans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia couldn't be seen as being as reprehensible as the Ustaše but the effect of there presence in Ireland was analogous.

There were other similar groups in earlier periods who probably did much worse things too.

The Ustaše are what I had in mind.
I just can't conceive of anything happening on the same scale in Ireland.
That said, a lesser scale of predation can be terrifying, sure.

 

[Bbucko]

The Black and Tans- Black and Tans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia couldn't be seen as being as reprehensible as the Ustaše but the effect of there presence in Ireland was analogous.

There were other similar groups in earlier periods who probably did much worse things too.

Honest to gawd, the things you learn on LPSG!

All this time I though a Black and Tan involved a pint of Guinness Stout :redface:

 

[BIG_DAVE]

It has delivered enormous changes for both populations. These include:
1) Peace. There is peace. However fragile there is peace. People are not being killed. PEACE!

People ARE being killed in the last few years alone 2 catholics have been kicked to death both times the psni sat by and watched. A 15 year old boy was stabbed to death and he 2 friends were stabbed in a sectarian attack by loyalists on thier way home from school.

Sectarian attacks take place on a weekly basis against the catholic community.

Again showing to the board you have little to no knowledge of the on goings of the 6 counties yet you still talk about it.

2) Security. A lot less intrusive than it was.

Bullshit, homes are still raided at random and with the section 44 provention of terrorism act by the british goverment it's completely legal in the eyes of the brititsh to stop and search any person for no reason.

This was so intrusive it was deemed illegal in a european court of law.

Link here

3) Government which reflects the Nationalist community - SF in government and with SF holding ministerial roles.

Sinn Fein lost the nationalist people when they told them to inform to the psni. They are still voted for as they are a sure fire way of making sure they retain thier seats. A lesser of two evils if you will.

Don't be so daft to assume that having nationalists in goverment they automaticly represent the nationalist community.

4) Prosperity and employment. Yes I know there's a downturn now, but it has been good and still isn't all that bad.

Wrong again. The majority of business are prtoestant owned. I was even told myself about 3 years ago "not to expect a call back, we don't think your right for the job" After hearing my surname when before hand they had been given a brief outline of my experiance and my first name David a name few catholics in the 6 go by.

So in a way your right, protestants are doing ok.

5) Investment - both by business and government. Look at the range of shops now in Belfast (and throughout NI).

There was always shops in the 6 if by new shops you mean the big chains taking over small business, awk aye we're dead lucky.

6) Infrastructure. Long planned but realised alongside the Peace Process. Better transport for example - Belfast's harbour bridge, Enterprise to Dublin as a quality service, good air links, better ferry links.

Thats sweet fa to do with the GFA.

7) Reconciliation. The Bloody Sunday inquiry, the Claudy inquiry - we are dealing with the past. The UK govt have apologised over Bloody Sunday.

They had no choice but to. 14 dead out of the thousands they slaughtered they've acknowledged? Hardly reconciliation at best it's a start.

Both communities have gained so very much through the peace process. There have been fundamental changes in almost every area of daily life.

Really? you must of lived in ni before and after to make that observation but you didn't did you? Don't you be telling me how my community is doing when at best your clueless on the subject in hand.

 

[Jason]

Could it really match the sheer scale of what happened in Yugoslavia?

Of course none of us know but I think it really is a possibility. I know NI very well over a lot of years though I don't live there. The hurts run very, very deep and people define their life by the hurts. The Peace Process is a thin skin over a sea of sectarian hatred. It is precious but it is ever so fragile. There are people on both sides who fail to accept it has achieved anything and itch to go back to the fighting, and they might just get their wish. They are less and less able to express to anyone else what they actually want. A unified Ireland governed from Dublin? NI doesn't want this so it can't happen through a democratic process. Sinn Fein in government? But Sinn Fein aren't proper Nationalists anymore because they support the Peace Process. The UK to say sorry? Done that, not enough. All the Unionists to pack their bags and go to where their ancestors came from four centuries ago - now we're talking. The ONLY logic of the extreme Nationalist view is some form of ethnic cleansing. And what do the Unionists want? The key idea is security - they feel they are the vulnerable ones. A few years back there was talk by extreme Unionists of a partition of NI to give a thoroughly Unionist state, basically Co Antrim, Co Down and including Belfast. But the population is so mixed that in the end this ends up as ethnic cleansing (The Falls is in Belfast). Look into the abyss and NI has the potential for horror unlimited.

Everyone has to make the Peace Process work. There isn't an alternative.