Reconciling the imposition of the "White Man's" religion

dong20

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solong said:
What "revenge"? I've never felt I need revenge. I just don't think that way, but I also realize that some do, and those that think that way cannot be convinced that everybody else thinks that way, too.

Again, you miss the point, I wasn't talking about you or anyone in specific terms, "Getting your revenge in first" meant, when one is convinced that one is going to be victimised then attack can be considered the best form of defence. I'm not advocating it or endorsing it, just making an observation. Not everything is about you or directed at you solong.

solong said:
The title of the thread calls it, "White Man's Religion," and so it is NOT ignorant to posit to the forum, "What do you mean, 'White Man's Religion?' "

By White Man's Religion, you purposely exclude, "Black Man's Religion." But now we discover that what is really meant by "White Man's Religion," is "A flaming bunch of hypocrites who can't stand anybody else that doesn't come up to their standards, in their group, and you all are responding to it.

So what's funny to me is, I am absolutely right and you presume to correct me, that I don't know what's going on.

Well actually I was responding to you, and yes in a literal word for word interperation of the title you are correct but try and look beyond the headlines and look at the topic in a broader context.


solong said:
Believe me, I know a lot better what's going on that you think I do, and I'm just calling you on it by actually wanting to converse about "White Man's Religion." Stronzo is playing the race card, to generate catamites to his unbelievable hatred of Christianity, which he has exhibited in so many other threads.

I can't speak to Stronzos motivation but I for one don't believe it was racially motivated in the sense you're implying.

solong said:
How do you reconcile the imposition of 'Black Man's" religion? Talk about getting stares. Talk about feeling 2" tall. Talk about hatred that you could cut with a knife. Maybe none of you ever walked into a black church, before, and sat down. Let's just say the feeling is NOT that of "Welcome, Brother!"

Well actually I have done so many many times, here and in other countries. sometimes alone and sometimes with my partner who is Black. I never felt anything other than welcome.

Let me ask you; If a black person walked into your (hypothetcally as I don't know) white church for example would you or your congregation stare at him...if so why? If not then why would you expect that if the situation were reversed they would stare at you.

By your statement about hatred and stares, I think you just exposed a truth about yourself here solong, and not a pleasant one.
 

B_Stronzo

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solong said:
So what's funny to me is, I am absolutely right and you presume to correct me, that I don't know what's going on. Believe me, I know a lot better what's going on that you think I do, and I'm just calling you on it by actually wanting to converse about "White Man's Religion." Stronzo is playing the race card, to generate catamites to his unbelievable hatred of Christianity, which he has exhibited in so many other threads.

You misunderstand my friend. I'm speaking from a social not a Christian perspective. See if you can detach for the sake of this conversation. Please read anew the original context of my thread-opening post. I bear Christains no greater dislike than any organized faith which presumes to marginalize other peoples. You mistake me. I speak of the White Man's religion in just that way I explained it. My query was clear enough to those not looking to find that which isn't there.

Attempt to understand this thread - irrespective of your overt dislike (hatred?) of me - and perhaps you'll be able to respond with civility and some sense of understanding without viewing it as a "Stronzo" thread therefore taking dead aim. I'm not your enemy, honestly, much as you'd posture me as such. We just come from different worlds. If you're fine with yours perhaps you shouldn't force feed it on others and simply enjoy your bliss. I know I'm happy with mine and don't impose my "Christian hatred" (to paraphrase you) at sites where my point of view would be decidedly unwelcome.

Seems fair I think.



How do you reconcile the imposition of 'Black Man's" religion? Talk about getting stares. Talk about feeling 2" tall. Talk about hatred that you could cut with a knife. Maybe none of you ever walked into a black church, before, and sat down. Let's just say the feeling is NOT that of "Welcome, Brother!"

Wow. You're immensely angry. That comment's nigh-on-to racist. May we add that to your resumé? I've attended services in several such churches and the response was the reverse of what you suggest. Roxbuy, Massachusetts (neighboring city to Boston) has some very traditional black Baptist congregations. In my experience each was an uplifting experience in a very tactile way. Did I discuss homosexuality with the congregation? No. I don't discuss homosexuality with Christians generally since it's lost on many of them. But the feeling of inclusion was unmistakably there. And indeed no one commented on my fair skin or my limp wrists :biggrin1: ... Weird huh?

Perhaps, just perhaps solong, it's because you're looking for there to exist a problem where none does. So... you simply create one. Do you ever come down on the side of kindness? I gotta tell you dude... you don't seem very kind in that "Christian" charity sort of way. You appear angry with the world.

dong20 said:
I can't speak to Stronzos motivation but I for one don't believe it was racially motivated in the sense you're implying.
Sure you can. You just did superbly. He knows it's not but isn't he fun to toy with nonetheless?:smile:
 

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Stronzo said:
Wow. You're immensely angry. That comment's nigh-on-to racist. May we add that to your resumé? I've attended services in several such churches and the response was the reverse of what you suggest. Roxbuy, Massachusetts (neighboring city to Boston) has some very traditional black Baptist congregations. In my experience each was an uplifting experience in a very tactile way. Did I discuss homosexuality with the congregation? No. I don't discuss homosexuality with Christians generally since it's lost on many of them. But the feeling of inclusion was unmistakably there. And indeed no one commented on my fair skin or my limp wrists :biggrin1: ... Weird huh?

I think solongs' statement speaks entirely to his own preconceptions and prejudice which, inadvertantly (I suspect) he just exposed for us all to see.
 

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I suggest everyone who finds solong to be offensive put him on ignore.

He does not know what he is talking about and continues to sling such faulty conceptions that you just have to feel sad when observing them in print.

Prepstud's experiences are typical of White Americans who interact regularly and build a sense of community with African Americans. Social research (which I have cited before) speak to the uber-willingness of African Americans to accept people of other races into their "communities" when those people show a true want and desire to be there and understand. I would say that if solong felt unwelcomed it was because most people can smell disingeniousness when in its prescence.

That being said--this is NOT what the thread is about (as Dong so aptly put it).
 

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Lex,

I love you like a brother, but perhaps Solong did not have a positive experience through no fault of his own. From what I have heard Monty attends a rather progressive church and his experience reflects that attitude. We all know that there are Black and White churches which unfortunately do much to push others away from experiencing God's love though his people. I would say that black people in many cases are embracing but I would not say in all. So there are exceptions to every rule.

Naughty











Lex said:
I suggest everyone who finds solong to be offensive put him on ignore.

He does not know what he is talking about and continues to sling such faulty conceptions that you just have to feel sad when observing them in print.

Prepstud's experiences are typical of White Americans who interact regularly and build a sense of community with African Americans. Social research (which I have cited before) speak to the uber-willingness of African Americans to accept people of other races into their "communities" when those people show a true want and desire to be there and understand. I would say that if solong felt unwelcomed it was because most people can smell disingeniousness when in its prescence.

That being said--this is NOT what the thread is about (as Dong so aptly put it).
 

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prepstudinsc said:
Also, what about Korea, where the majority of people are Presbyterian? Asians are not white, but they certainly practice a historically "White" brand of Protestant Christianity.

This is fascinating to me prepstud since I know Christianity is pervasive in certain areas of Korea. I don't know the genesis of it but if you do would you fill me in? I have an acquaintance who's Korean and his people (at least three generations back) are Christians. He seemed incredulous that I was shocked he was generationally Christian.

I have to think at some point in Korean history the 'White Man's Religion' was proselytized and the missionary phenomenon befell people who were Buddhists prior to the enchroachment of the "they know not what they do White Man's religion". This is key to why I take issue with the Christian faith. It deigns to make everyone "just like us"... the obvious condescenion implied being "we've got it right, you don't. We'll correct you so you can meet Jesus" :rolleyes:


Nevermind. I just googled it and if this source is dependable I was on the money :rolleyes: Same phenomenon, different modus, same imposition.


http://www.kimsoft.com/1997/xhist.htm
 

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naughty said:
Lex,

I love you like a brother, but perhaps Solong did not have a positive experience through no fault of his own. From what I have heard Monty attends a rather progressive church and his experience reflects that attitude. We all know that there are Black and White churches which unfortunately do much to push others away from experiencing God's love though his people. I would say that black people in many cases are embracing but I would not say in all. So there are exceptions to every rule.

Naughty

Naughty, you may well be right, but his statement wasn't in any way qualified in that context it was a rather literal statement:

"Talk about getting stares. Talk about feeling 2" tall. Talk about hatred that you could cut with a knife. Maybe none of you ever walked into a black church, before, and sat down. Let's just say the feeling is NOT that of "Welcome, Brother!"

If it were the first instance of such a generalisation fine, but it's far from it. He has alluded to being treated this way in other threads, one can't help but see a pattern emerging. I don't think anyone here bears solong ill will in a personal sense but neither do I think such a provocative statement should go unchallenged...:cool:
 

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naughty said:
Lex,

I love you like a brother, but perhaps Solong did not have a positive experience through no fault of his own. From what I have heard Monty attends a rather progressive church and his experience reflects that attitude. We all know that there are Black and White churches which unfortunately do much to push others away from experiencing God's love though his people. I would say that black people in many cases are embracing but I would not say in all. So there are exceptions to every rule.

Naughty


You, Naughty, are an extremely generous woman.
 

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Lex said:
I suggest everyone who finds solong to be offensive put him on ignore.

He does not know what he is talking about and continues to sling such faulty conceptions that you just have to feel sad when observing them in print.

Prepstud's experiences are typical of White Americans who interact regularly and build a sense of community with African Americans. Social research (which I have cited before) speak to the uber-willingness of African Americans to accept people of other races into their "communities" when those people show a true want and desire to be there and understand. I would say that if solong felt unwelcomed it was because most people can smell disingeniousness when in its prescence.

That being said--this is NOT what the thread is about (as Dong so aptly put it).

It just makes me sad that Solong is so small minded. He's just so offbase that he thinks he's right, regardless of anyone's experiences, what the truth is, or what anyone can prove. It's people like him who continue to make the racial gap exist.

As in everything, I see people for who they are. Dumbasses are dumbasses regardless of skin color. Great people are great people regardless of skin color. We all have things to offer each other and I think it's wonderful when people of different races and cultures can come together and share. We all become enriched. In the experience of church, we can share different styles of worship and music to glorify God together. That's the amazing thing about it. We're all worshipping the same God. The Bible says to go out and spread the Gospel to the ends of the earth. Sooner or later, the message is going to be in every corner of the earth. So the message that started in the corner of the Middle East and North Africa will be all over the globe. To me, that's both amazing and exciting, because it's everyone's religion. God created us all, not just the blond haired, blue eyed people.
 

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naughty said:
Lex,

I love you like a brother, but perhaps Solong did not have a positive experience through no fault of his own. From what I have heard Monty attends a rather progressive church and his experience reflects that attitude. We all know that there are Black and White churches which unfortunately do much to push others away from experiencing God's love though his people. I would say that black people in many cases are embracing but I would not say in all. So there are exceptions to every rule.

Naughty

I'm guessing he did not have a positive experience because he comes across as ignorant, un- and misinformed, sheltered, homophobic, and prejudiced.

But I could be wrong.

I know *I* certainly don't suffer those types of fools lightly. Do you?
 

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Lex said:
I'm guessing he did not have a positive experience because he comes across as ignorant, un- and misinformed, sheltered, homophobic, and prejudiced.

But I could be wrong.

I know *I* certainly don't suffer those types of fools lightly. Do you?

Lex, my friend, I think you hit that nail on the head with a sledge hammer!
 

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Lex said:
I'm guessing he did not have a positive experience because he comes across as ignorant, un- and misinformed, sheltered, homophobic, and prejudiced.

But I could be wrong.

I know *I* certainly don't suffer those types of fools lightly. Do you?

I intend to take you, Lex, to task for those remarks. You have labeled me as ignorant, misinformed, sheltered, homophobic, and prejudiced. Then you say, "BUt I could be wrong."

About which? About all? How can you first label somebody (labels are absolutisms by genre) and then say, "But I could be wrong?"

I would like you to give me an example of each of the 5 accusations which you have made, and then demand that I answer them, OK?

And...I will! Or, I will apologize, and admit that you are right. Or, I will ask your forgiveness for not stating myself in a way that was very understandable and then I will make it more clear.

That's an honest way to handle it, don't yopu think?

So then, if you will do your part, I will CERTAINLY take care of my part. And, anybody else who wants to contribute (as long as it's not so long-winded, I'll be happy to answer, but your objections have to be succinct, or I will ignore them.

So now, if you really want to be honest, then get busy.
 

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Freddie53 said:
Strronzo,

Some things just are beyond rationalization. I don't know why the first generation slaves converted to Christiantiy. Nearly all the Black spirituals are about freedom and the black slaves firmly believed that God would send a Moses to rescue them like God did in olden days. Several of the spirituals were banned by the slave owners.

Then came the Union army south. And most of that army were Christian and freed the slaves. Lincoln was the new Moses.

So there is a rationalization for this from 1800 on after the slave trade had ended. It is one of the greatr mysteries why the black slaves acceptted Christinaity so readily.

As horrible as those slave ships were, the first generations of slaves were blacks who were already slaves in Africa and so they just got new slave owners. Whether their lives were better or worse than being slaves in Africa is something only they knew and they have left no history of that as far as I know.

Later slaves were stolen, kidnapped as the existing slave population in africa became too small to support the slave trade. This was even more barbaric than the early slave trade. These slaves were captured, tied down, given few if any restroom breaks and given enough water and food to keep most of them alive until they got to New Orleans where they were auctioned off like cattle, then branded with a hot iron to show which plantation they belonged to. Very horrific.

This is the best I can do to answer your question. Today I don't know if there is anyone alive who can answer it. With just an oral history for several hundred years, much has been lost forever from a historical prespective.

I've often wondered the same question and did some research into it and what i have posted is what I found out.

If someone knows more of the history and why and how it came to be that blacks adopted Christianity, I wish they would enlighten us. Many here would like to know.

Freddie,

How eloquent! I have spent much of my adult life interpreting, through living history, the lives of the unknown slave. In the course of my research, I have come across oral histories from some of these unknown slaves refering to their faith. We are looking back at a 350 year period that none of us can comprehend. We dont know what was truly in each and every slave's heart. But we do know that they were not monolithic.
I am sure the early slaves perhaps tried through this emotional and physical and psychological holocaust to recreate some faith in a higher power using what was available to them. In many of the spirituals you can see that the slaves were quite able to distinguish between what was being said and the fruits of those preaching it to them. Miraculously some were able to look beyond those who oppressed them and embraced this Christian god.
The slaves of the upper South, having come earlier , under English rule and being in closer proximity to whites ,on outward appearance seem to have embraced the concept of Jesus as savior and deliverer knowing that for many of them their Jordan land was only to be reached in death. As the country expanded south and west larger plantations formed and greater numbers of African slaves and slaves from the Carribean and Africa were required. The contact of African to African was much more probable and with many more their contact with whites was decreased, There was more opportunity to practice African traditions as well as the creolized versions of Congo religion such as Voudou (Vodoun) or Santaria. Exchanging the Catholic Saints of the French ,Portuguese and Spanish with the much older African gods of their ancestors. Some never fully accepted Christianity while others did.
It is a fascinating subject. Sometimes the strongest faith is borne out of an adversity that none of us could imagine possible. What we now see as the "White Man's religion" for many was the only thing that got many enslaved from day to day.
 

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naughty said:
What we now see as the "White Man's religion" for many was the only thing that got many enslaved from day to day.

All of what you wrote Naughty was very interesting to me. But again most of it was from a social perspective.

I acknowledge the survival and social piece inherent to the African population as they were homogenized into the greater American population (more or less) and I fully understand how strong the draw of something as cohesive as the Christian church can be for many for community and fellowship. As an adolescent who always felt different for obvious reasons the Christian church even provided that service to me though not for very long.

However, I still ask why today's descendants of their African ancestors wouldn't be given pause about the phenomenon of the imposition. The history of its genesis socially is the grist for another thread mill in my opinion. But even I, as a "Cape Cod sand duned" W.A.S.P. :rolleyes: who's been generationally Christian for well over a thousand years questions the veracity of a church which would limit my personal freedoms in such a fundamental way. It's to this particular feature of Christianity that I address this thread.

I think it must be doubly confounding to many thinking black Americans who take the time to scrutinize their "Christian past" and its imposition on them.
 

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Stronzo said:
All of what you wrote Naughty was very interesting to me. But again most of it was from a social perspective.

I acknowledge the survival and social piece inherent to the African population as they were homogenized into the greater American population (more or less) and I fully understand how strong the draw of something as cohesive as the Christian church can be for many for community and fellowship. As an adolescent who always felt different for obvious reasons the Christian church even provided that service to me though not for very long.

However, I still ask why today's descendants of their African ancestors wouldn't be given pause about the phenomenon of the imposition. The history of its genesis socially is the grist for another thread mill in my opinion. But even I, as a "Cape Cod sand duned" W.A.S.P. :rolleyes: who's been generationally Christian for well over a thousand years questions the veracity of a church which would limit my personal freedoms in such a fundamental way. It's to this particular feature of Christianity that I address this thread.

I think it must be doubly confounding to many thinking black Americans who take the time to scrutinize their "Christian past" and its imposition on them.

Stronzo,

I think there are probably very dark aspects of every religion. But who is to say why one believes and another does not. It is their individual choice. Most of my ancestors, black and white, have been here for at least 200 years some closer to 300 and so I am a product of my American experience. Though to some degree, I have African blood running through my veins my sensibilities are not African. The American Black Church has created its own bond with Christ. There have always been Christian believers of African descent. Were not St Augustine and St Cyprian men of African descent?
 

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solong said:
I intend to take you, Lex, to task for those remarks.

Then why didn't you? You wasted an entire post to tell me to prove something that you have already demonstrated so readily.

solong said:
You have labeled me as ignorant, misinformed, sheltered, homophobic, and prejudiced. Then you say, "BUt I could be wrong."
About which? About all? How can you first label somebody (labels are absolutisms by genre) and then say, "But I could be wrong?"
I would like you to give me an example of each of the 5 accusations which you have made, and then demand that I answer them, OK?

Actually, it was one accusation with five (or six if we are being picky) qualifiers. Your posts in this section of the board evinced the qualifiers IMHO and as I am celarly not the only person to have watched them emerge--I think YOU may want to go about disproving your own words (it's called backtracking).

solong said:
And...I will! Or, I will apologize, and admit that you are right. Or, I will ask your forgiveness for not stating myself in a way that was very understandable and then I will make it more clear.

That's an honest way to handle it, don't yopu think?

What does honesty have to do with handling a difference on opinion? For my part, I am almost always brutally honest on this forum and in person. I speak my mind quite freely and openly. Also, apologies are SO overrated. I apologize only when I feel that I have done something I am sorry for. I won't feel bad for calling you the person you appear to be. Nope.

solong said:
So then, if you will do your part, I will CERTAINLY take care of my part. And, anybody else who wants to contribute (as long as it's not so long-winded, I'll be happy to answer, but your objections have to be succinct, or I will ignore them.
So now, if you really want to be honest, then get busy.

What is this: high school debate club? Sorry, not a member. I have objected to your posts on several occassions and in several threads. I'm over it and you, actually. SNORE.
 

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naughty said:
Stronzo,

I think there are probably very dark aspects of every religion. But who is to say why one believes and another does not. It is their individual choice. Most of my ancestors, black and white, have been here for at least 200 years some closer to 300 and so I am a product of my American experience. Though to some degree, I have African blood running through my veins my sensibilities are not African. The American Black Church has created its own bond with Christ. There have always been Christian believers of African descent. Were not St Augustine and St Cyprian men of African descent?

While I appreciate your perspective Naughty again I would direct you specifically to how I constructed the intial premise to this thread. I was very specific about my question and it nothing to do with St. Augustine, St. Cyprian or the any bond with Christ. It addresses ONLY the question of how it came to be. It is to that phenomenon I address my inquiry.

My focus is on a very specific group: Those African Americans from the slave trade who were brought to these shores against their will and stripped of their heritage, customs, and community and forced to "buy into" the "White Man's Religion" as it existed upon their arrival. I was very clear about that.

The only person (in my opinion) of African descent who has addressed the question I really asked with any sense of real detachment and understanding and without a Christian-based bias is Lex.