Redistribution of wealth?

[JP0724]

I can honestly say Thank You to everyone who has posted here because it has definitely taught me that I need to be more aware of the tax code in this country. While I understand the broad ideas and the stances of the candidates, I would like to know exactly how much money we are looking at.

Does anyone know exactly how much money you would lose or make under each plan? I'm going to have my assistant call my CPA and find out. I will post with the results once I have them.

 

[D_Davy_Downspout]

I don't really think my tax bracket is any of anyones business and I have always found the talking about specifics of ones fortune or lack there of is just tacky.

I don't care what you make, I'm trying to illustrate how silly you're being.

I will say this, say for instance that in the next year, I stood to make 3.5 Million Dollars, and I were in that top tax bracket at 3%, that totals $105,000.00 if my calculations are correct. Can you imagine writing a check for $105,000.00? Now this is all very dumbed down, because it's not that simple, and that's why you have a CPA who knows the tax codes etc.. I was just trying to make a point that, while you probably get a check back on your federal taxes, I have to pay, and I have to pay probably more than your going to make this year.

Go talked to your CPA. Tax brackets are marginal. Let's say the bracket starts at 3 million. The increase only effects income above 3 million. Of course if you made that much and had a good accountant, odds are you'd pay less taxes than me.

Now lets say for the sake of augment your number is correct. That 105,000 is a huge number, but you still have millions left over.

A 3% increase for someone making 30,000 is almost one thousand dollars, and that is FAR more significant to him, than your 100,000 is to you. That's the difference of little bobby going to community college or not.

We are both equal Americans, so why are we not taxed equally?

HAHAHAHA, a flat tax? I thought you were smart about money. Now I really know you have no idea what you're talking about, and are trust trying to cling to your money as tight as possible, fuck the poor.

 

[D_Davy_Downspout]

What he meant to say was 'you won't see an additional dime of taxes if you compare your tax rates to those before Bush's repeal.'

I think the impending Democrat supermajority has unhinged you. I can't wait for your head to explode in real time on November 4.

 

[D_Davy_Downspout]

[FONT=times new roman,times]Check this for yourself. Go to [/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times] and pull up the 1040 instructions for 2000 and 2007 and go to the tax tables. Based on your 2007 income, check your taxes rates for 2000 and 2007, and apply them to your taxable income for 2007. In 2000 -- Senator Obama's benchmark year -- you would have paid significantly more taxes for the income you earned in 2007. The Bush Tax Cuts, which Senator Obama has said he will allow to lapse, saved you money, and without those cuts, your taxes will go back up to the 2000 level. Senator Obama doesn't call it a "tax increase," but your taxes under "President" Obama will increase -- significantly.[/FONT]

Why don't you go and read his actual tax plan. Instead of, you know, making shit up to try and prove your point. No....that would be TOO FUCKING EASY.

Repealing Bush's tax cuts are not the entirety of it.

 

[JP0724]

I don't care what you make, I'm trying to illustrate how silly you're being.



Go talked to your CPA. Tax brackets are marginal. Let's say the bracket starts at 3 million. The increase only effects income above 3 million. Of course if you made that much and had a good accountant, odds are you'd pay less taxes than me.

Now lets say for the sake of augment your number is correct. That 105,000 is a huge number, but you still have millions left over.

A 3% increase for someone making 30,000 is almost one thousand dollars, and that is FAR more significant to him, than your 100,000 is to you. That's the difference of little bobby going to community college or not.




HAHAHAHA, a flat tax? I thought you were smart about money. Now I really know you have no idea what you're talking about, and are trust trying to cling to your money as tight as possible, fuck the poor.

I fully admit that I am not a tax person or even a great financial genius. What I am is smart enough to know when you need to hire someone with more expertise such as a CPA or wealth planner.

But to say that a thousand dollars is more of a hit to someone making 30,000 as it is to someone in a higher tax bracket is just ludicrous. The more money you make, the more you spend. I have bills just like everyone else. I have mortgages to pay, car payments, all of that. I have to budget just like everyone else, just because the numbers are bigger doesn't mean it doesn't affect me.

I don't think that there is an end to this argument. Poor people are always going to whine that it's harder for them, and more established people are going to say that we worked hard to get where we are and we don't feel that we should have to share with you.

Your always going to think your right, and I am always going to think that I am right... and in all honestly maybe if I were in your position, struggling making 50 or 60 thousand dollars a year, then maybe I would understand your point of view also. It's about perspective in life. I'm sure if you stepped into my shoes, you would see it from my point of view.

 

[B_starinvestor]

Why don't you go and read his actual tax plan. Instead of, you know, making shit up to try and prove your point. No....that would be TOO FUCKING EASY.

Wow, you guys have no way of acknowledging that your hero misled people on the tax plan. Its indisputable, the tax tables are going up. Period. What else do you want for proof? Are you implying that he isn't repealing the Bush cuts?

The fact is, everybody is chipping in - not just those over $250k. The middle class will have to live with it along with everybody else.

 

[tripod]

Wow, you guys have no way of acknowledging that your hero misled people on the tax plan.

He isn't a hero Star, he is the presidential candidate of our choice... don't fucking try and belittle him.

Its indisputable, the tax tables are going up. Period. What else do you want for proof? Are you implying that he isn't repealing the Bush cuts?

You can cry wolf until you are blue in the face... it's not gonna change the fact that you are using voodoo economics to explain how Obama is gonna raise middle class income taxes... it just ain't gonna happen and you are wrong. You are assuming that Obama is a liar and we are not, it is as simple as that.

The fact is, everybody is chipping in - not just those over $250k. The middle class will have to live with it along with everybody else.

The reality that the economy will affect us all is true, but you have wound yourself into a ball about the middle class tax cut that Obama proposes and you can't seem to get out of it.

 

[JP0724]

He isn't a hero Star, he is the presidential candidate of our choice... don't fucking try and belittle him.



You can cry wolf until you are blue in the face... it's not gonna change the fact that you are using voodoo economics to explain how Obama is gonna raise middle class income taxes... it just ain't gonna happen and you are wrong. You are assuming that Obama is a liar and we are not, it is as simple as that.



The reality that the economy will affect us all is true, but you have wound yourself into a ball about the middle class tax cut that Obama proposes and you can't seem to get out of it.

Can you pass me the Obama juice please, I starting to become rational again..

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

Please elaborate.

My point is that there are people are rich or comfortable, whatever definition you want to use that don't deserve it. However there are people out there that don't deserve to be making even minimum wage. There are people that are lazy, that complain about their job and perform it horribly even though they haven't worked to even try to better themselves.

I'm not saying everyone should be rocket scientists, what I'm saying that some people are just well, dumb and/or lazy. I'm sorry but if I go to McDonald's and get my kids a happy meal, put the right food in the bag/box. All you need to do is read off a piece of paper what exactly it is. If I give you a $20 to pay for a $8.45 meal, know how to make change without the screen telling you what it is.

Nobody, even the rich, is entitled to anything. You need to be skilled, or good at something, or even just have a work ethic to get anywhere. Some people with money inherited it, some created their wealth. Some poor people work their asses off for what they have and should be helped out, some are lazy and shouldn't get a dime of tax dollars.

Like I've said, I've seen my parents struggle, I know how it can hurt a family having that kind of stress. I don't have an issue with being taxed to help folks, I have an issue with the government and the lack of being able to run things efficently. I stated before, if 9 out of my 10 grand goes to someone that really needs it and not someone sitting on their ass collecting because they can then watch soap operas all day, I'm ok with it. If 9 out of my 10 grand goes to someone who really needs it and not levels upon levels of agencies and their salaries and other various levels of red tape, I'm all for that too.

It's about waste. I don't want the money I EARNED being flushed away, if you don't believe that both sides waste billions of dollars, well then you are either in denial or naive.

 

[B_starinvestor]

He isn't a hero Star, he is the presidential candidate of our choice... don't fucking try and belittle him.



You can cry wolf until you are blue in the face... it's not gonna change the fact that you are using voodoo economics to explain how Obama is gonna raise middle class income taxes... it just ain't gonna happen and you are wrong. You are assuming that Obama is a liar and we are not, it is as simple as that.



The reality that the economy will affect us all is true, but you have wound yourself into a ball about the middle class tax cut that Obama proposes and you can't seem to get out of it.

I'll list the changes later today. I'm tied up for the next couple hours. You shall see...

 

[mindseye]

[FONT=times new roman,times]Check this for yourself. Go to [/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times] and pull up the 1040 instructions for 2000 and 2007 and go to the tax tables. Based on your 2007 income, check your taxes rates for 2000 and 2007, and apply them to your taxable income for 2007. In 2000 -- Senator Obama's benchmark year -- you would have paid significantly more taxes for the income you earned in 2007. The Bush Tax Cuts, which Senator Obama has said he will allow to lapse, saved you money, and without those cuts, your taxes will go back up to the 2000 level. Senator Obama doesn't call it a "tax increase," but your taxes under "President" Obama will increase -- significantly.[/FONT]

Earlier, you were complaining about "redistribution of wealth" -- that Obama was some sort of socialist Robin Hood who was going to steal all your wealth and redistribute it to lazy welfare cheats.

That tactic having fizzled, you're now claiming that Obama's going to raise taxes on everyone -- "significantly", in your own words.

So which is it, flip-flopper? Are the poor and middle-class getting rewarded by this redistribution, or are they getting their taxes raised, too?

 

[tripod]

Nobody, even the rich, is entitled to anything. You need to be skilled, or good at something, or even just have a work ethic to get anywhere.

Do you for a second think that all people have access to the learning of skills? It is precisely the fortunate people who have all of the money that have the greatest access to those skills... and it is the poor and unfortunate that never get the opportunity to even learn these skills. Your point is bereft of empathy and common sense.

Some people with money inherited it, some created their wealth. Some poor people work their asses off for what they have and should be helped out, some are lazy and shouldn't get a dime of tax dollars.

So you wanna create a system that figures out whether a person is lazy or not before they get assistance? Do you know how unrealistic that sounds? It is next to impossible.

Thanx for heaping more bullshit upon the bullshit that you have already tried to force us to digest.

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

Do you for a second think that all people have access to the learning of skills? It is precisely the fortunate people who have all of the money that have the greatest access to those skills... and it is the poor and unfortunate that never get the opportunity to even learn these skills. Your point is bereft of empathy and common sense.

So you wanna create a system that figures out whether a person is lazy or not before they get assistance? Do you know how unrealistic that sounds? It is next to impossible.

Thanx for heaping more bullshit upon the bullshit that you have already tried to force us to digest.

Tripod, you generalize more than anyone on these forums.

Saying "only the rich" have access to things to make themselves better is the largest cop out that is spewed over and over again. Not every person that makes a decent living is a trust fund baby. There are people of every race and background that have pulled themselves up from nothing to make it. And it doesn't have made it rich, even people that are making a decent living and supporting their families with just an "average" life. House, yard, two cars in the garage and the 2.5 kids.

Show me where I said "prove someone isn't lazy" before getting help, show me. Shutting off aid to people that refuse to help themselves when programs are offered, should have benefits reduced or taken away. I'm not sure why I need to pay for someone that refuses to help themselves. I've already created jobs in my community and also own low income housing units that I barely make a profit on. So now I get to pay for people that won't help themselves too? Great where do I sign up?

It's impossible to list every situation that exists where people actually need assistance, these are the people that gladly get my help. My heartburn come from government waste, red tape and people that milk the system.

Oh and by the way, I earned my degrees from my GI Bill, I'm pretty sure that's open to almost everyone as an option. So you're barking up the wrong tree with the "options not avaiable to everyone". It falls on deaf ears here.

 

[tripod]

Tripod, you generalize more than anyone on these forums.

Saying "only the rich" have access to things to make themselves better is the largest cop out that is spewed over and over again.

I said have the "greatest access"... don't fucking misquote me.

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

I said have the "greatest access"... don't fucking misquote me.

Sure as soon as you stop making up general statements that go against everything I said to try and paint my point of view to something you can argue with.

Works both ways.

 

[tripod]

Sure as soon as you stop making up general statements that go against everything I said to try and paint my point of view to something you can argue with.

Works both ways.

I didn't misquote you... you misquoted me.

You conservatives care more about winning an argument than you do about being honest. I generalize you because you make it easy.

 

[B_starinvestor]

Earlier, you were complaining about "redistribution of wealth" -- that Obama was some sort of socialist Robin Hood who was going to steal all your wealth and redistribute it to lazy welfare cheats.

That tactic having fizzled, you're now claiming that Obama's going to raise taxes on everyone -- "significantly", in your own words.

So which is it, flip-flopper? Are the poor and middle-class getting rewarded by this redistribution, or are they getting their taxes raised, too?

You are correct....except there was no flip-flop. Both points remain intact and true. Lazy welfare cheats [as you put it] still pay nothing in taxes and recieve many of the redistribution dollars.

Middle class will pay more than before. Upper class will pay significantly more than before. Business will pay significantly more than before. Those that die will pay significantly more (estate tax) than before.

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

Right, so what you're saying is...

Someone in my situation, where *bettering* my situation actually worsens it, you'd gladly help if possible? but you object to all of the stages the taxes and such go through before being passed on to those who need it because of the sheer amount of that money being wasted paying for those stages and people like the women I lived next door to who actually went out of their way to cause their diabetes to be upped to (I can never remember which way around this is) the insulin dependant one, so they could continue to not work and claim sickness because of that topped off by the depression they developed upon hearing the dreadful news?

I'm trying to understand here, so be nice :tongue:

If I read what you wrote here correctly, then yes, I don't have a problem at all paying for assistance if you need it. Like you said, my heartburn comes from redtape and people taking advantage. Just like with the United Way, I've never donated to them because a lot of the directors make well over 100K a year. That's a lot of money that should be going to the actual people. It's the samething with the catholic church, look at the billions they collect, and own in things such as artwork etc. To me something like a church should have just enough to keep the walls from crumbling down and redistribute everything else to "feed the masses". But it doesn't happen.

I didn't misquote you... you misquoted me.

You conservatives care more about winning an argument than you do about being honest. I generalize you because you make it easy.

No but you have taken things I've said, digested them, re-stated them to suit your needs to be correct or make you feel like you're a crusader or something.

Again, for the third time, show me where I said I don't want to help the disadvantaged. I will not apologize for stating I don't want the government to waste money that I earned, nor apologize for not wanting people receiving the money I earned that refuse to at least attempt to improve their position. And I'm speaking to the people that would rather sit around and watch price is right than get a job or take a course if given the opportunity.

Or is just wanting to see people actually have some self worth and pride a bad thing. Because it's been my experience that most people would rather stand on their own two feet and be proud of what they have. I'm speaking specifically to the ones that want to milk the system.

 

[tripod]

Again, for the third time, show me where I said I don't want to help the disadvantaged. I will not apologize for stating I don't want the government to waste money that I earned, nor apologize for not wanting people receiving the money I earned that refuse to at least attempt to improve their position. And I'm speaking to the people that would rather sit around and watch price is right than get a job or take a course if given the opportunity.

If you think that I am gonna look through your posts and find examples of you being against the disadvantaged, you are dreaming, 'cause I don't really give a shit. You are a conservative and that is all I need to know... you can deny the label, but you are just dodging a label that is growing in it's repugnance in the minds of theaverage American.

If you are soooo against wasteful red tape... are you willing to clamp down on the defense department to cut out the billions in wasteful spending?

Or is just wanting to see people actually have some self worth and pride a bad thing. Because it's been my experience that most people would rather stand on their own two feet and be proud of what they have. I'm speaking specifically to the ones that want to milk the system.

You obsess on other people making money when you are not... just like every other greedy conservative.

 

[midlifebear]

One thing I find amusing is that all of you "great business owners" tend to overlook all of the tax breaks afforded small AND large businesses by the IRS in the USA. The list of deductions for office supplies, alone, is staggering. If you're smart (and most of us businessmen are) you "rent" or "lease" your place of business from an LLC you've created that owns your building or place of business. This is a standard way for a business to generate a profit, because in most instances the IRS allows a corporation or business to deduct all rent or leasing costs from their bottom line. The taxes the same businessman pays via an LLC or other business entity he owns and uses to lease himself his own building or place of business owned by the second business entity (in my example, an LLC) is substantially less than if the business owner included the physical place of business as a business asset under the primary business. In fact, anyone who buys equipment to manufacture products is shooting his or her self in the foot in the USA under current tax codes. If you buy manufacturing equipment (this includes everything from PC's and photocopy machines to actual machining equipment) can claim depreciation over a period of years (usually 5) and then they are stuck with old equipment. Much better to lease the same equipment and deduct almost 100% of the lease expenses every year. Then in five years the business can upgrade by leasing new equipment. These are just two common ways small (and large) businesses twist the tits of the US tax laws to increase and generate wealth.


Apparently there are no USA-based CPA's who post to LPSG.org. Otherwise I'm certain we would hear of many more legal ways that evil businessmen (such as myself) get away with paying less taxes than my employees pay. Actually, it's always struck me as somewhat odd that I actually pay less than someone making less than U$S45,000. But it's currently true. However, in lieu of the current non-economy in the USA I've closed down and sold off my business interests in 'Mericuh. However, if I were still in business in the USA I would nave no problem paying a proportionately larger share of taxes, especially if I could be assured that money would go to education, rebuilding the country's infrastructure, and help underwrite universal health care. The idea that it goes to buy bombs has never sat well with me.

When the economy starts to show signs of life in the next 5 to 10 years I'll probably start another business enterprise in the USA. Trust me, it's a lot easier to create and maintain a profitable business in the USA than it is in most EU countries or recovering economies, such as Argentina, where open corruption is a given and one needs deep pockets to pay off government bribes.

As for redistribution of wealth, in the USA it means nothing more than paying the historical graduated tax. If you make more money you pay more in taxes. These taxes are used to pay off our national debt as well as maintain our military, police, and worthwhile social services. From reading everyone's posts it's blatantly obvious I'm substantially older than the majority of you who have no collective memory of what life was like in the USA before the elderly had access to Social Security, Medicare and Medicaide (they all became available at different times in the last century).