religion and homosexuality

[BuffMusicIdol]

I'm bi, by preference, but faithful in marriage, so I guess that makes me a hybrid hetero? Who knows. I'm very attracted to men, but I absolutely adore my wife. I feel I'm more spiritual than religious, although I am active in church. I tend to shake people down to their sox when they get dogmatic. However, I have many gay friends in my own church, and I find them to be some of the most loving, descent people on the planet. My church does not condone homosexuality. But since sexual preference is rarely a conscious choice, I can't see that God has any less love for them than for anyone else. It's what's in the heart that counts, if you know anything of the life of Christ.

I have learned from my own studies that Christ did the opposite of what most Christians do today. He condemned the righteous (pharasees and saducees and the like) and forgave the sinners, ate with them, blessed them, and healed them.

What's up with that? Show me in the Good Book where homos are condemned to hell.

Something to think about.

Buff

 

[Dr Rock]

funny thing: jesus didn't actually write anything in the bible. in fact crap all of the new testament was even written until christianity was developing a power base and needed the visual legitimacy of its own holy books. from a historical perspective it's gotta be pretty damn up in the air as to the accuracy of any of those accounts -- and that's even if you actually believe in god and believe that jesus was his son, or messenger, or whatever you like. I don't, so it's all academic to me -- I'm just pointing out that you should be careful entrusting your moral and ethical standards to documents which were written essentially for political purposes.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

As I have written elsewhere, I am a practicing Catholic. I don't view belonging to an organized religion as being stupid, backwards, or any of the other negative things that others seem to indicate. It has provided me with a sense of community. I can't imagine my life without the Church. Many people don't realize it, but the Catholic Church is much more accepting than it was before the 1960's. There is an organization called Dignity which addresses concerns of gay Catholics. Many chapters actually meet in the activities building or rectory of a Catholic Church and a priest is often the moderator. How's that for acceptance? Many Christian denominations have similar organizations. Here are some of them:

Epicopalian/Anglican - Integrity
Baptist - Welcoming and Affirming Baptists; Honesty
Eastern Orthodox - Axios
Lutheran - Lutherans Concerned
Methodist - Affirmation
Presbyterian - More Light Presbyterians; Presbyterians for Lesbian and Gay Concerns
Christian Scientist - Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered Christian Scientists
Disciples of Christ - Gay, Lesbian and Affirming Disciples Alliance
Evangelical Christian - Evangelicals Concerned
Jehovah's Witness - Common Bond
Mormon - Affirmation
Mennonite/Brethren - Council for Lesbian and Gay Concerns
Pentecostal - Fellowship of Reconciling Pentecostals International
Quaker - Q-Light
Seventh Day Adventist - Kinship International
Unitarian Universalist - Interweave
United Church of Christ - Coalition for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Concerns

There are also organizations for gay Jews, Muslims and Buddhists.

 

[dcwrestlefan]

I view organized religion as a cancer on the face of the earth. It has been the basis of so many wars and so much hatred. Is it all negative? No. But the bad outweighs the good in my opinion.

And, at least in America, it is so filled with hypocrisy. People pick and choose which verses they want to believe. There are references to gays not being able to get into heaven, so we are evil and we must be written into the constitution as inferior. If the bible is the ultimate truth, why is the same attention not given by bible thumpers to the references to people who eat shrimp, women who wear ruby red, guys who "spill their seed on the ground" etc. None of them are eligible to enter the pearly gates either. There are some pretty ridiculous passages in the "good book" that don't get much attention. One, if I am not mistaken, says that if your brother's wife dies, you must make her pregnant. Um, I think not.

This is 2005. Not 20 BC. Its all a crock and it needs to go away. But it won't.

 

[Freddie53]

Jacinto,

Thanks for providing this list of supporting groups for each denomination. I would add that most of these groups will welcome people from other denominatoins as well if a local chapter is not close by in their denomination.

I will give a reply to all of this later. Each denomination will have its own definitions and such for this subject. In my church there are over 8 million members nationwide. Now really do you think that everyone who is United Methodist is in total agreement on anything. No.

But the doctrine of the church is simple. All people are sinners. That is none are perfect. At God's Table the Sacrament provides atonment for all sin and shortcomings. Our worst sins are not what we have done, but what we haven't done. So in the United Methodist Church the official doctrine is that all people are welcome to the Table to receive HOly Communion which is to become in total communion with God and to have all sin and shortcomings forgiven and forgotten. All people Christian and non Christian are welcome to the Table of the Lord.

Only people who are single and not activve sexually and married people may be clergy in the Untied Methodsit Church. This is true. But there is no restriction anywhere else. There are many paid organists, choir directors and even deacons who are practicing homosexuals.

All people are of sacred worth. God want all of his chidlren at his table with him and not necessarily the Christian table. But God is a loving God. If someone doesn't make it into heaven it will only be because they didnn't want to go in.

This homophobia is out of control. Homosexuals will be in heaven. One must know the history of why some things were written when they were written. I will tell that story which will surprise some of our people. The Bible is not as anto gay as it is made out to be. In fact it may not be at all but that is another post. Later.


I know you can take a verse here and a verse there and prove me wrong. But what I wrote is what I believe and what I think a majority of United Methodist would agree with.

Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper@Mar 3 2005, 01:31 AM
As I have written elsewhere, I am a practicing Catholic. I don't view belonging to an organized religion as being stupid, backwards, or any of the other negative things that others seem to indicate. It has provided me with a sense of community. I can't imagine my life without the Church. Many people don't realize it, but the Catholic Church is much more accepting than it was before the 1960's. There is an organization called Dignity which addresses concerns of gay Catholics. Many chapters actually meet in the activities building or rectory of a Catholic Church and a priest is often the moderator. How's that for acceptance? Many Christian denominations have similar organizations. Here are some of them:

Epicopalian/Anglican - Integrity
Baptist - Welcoming and Affirming Baptists; Honesty
Eastern Orthodox - Axios
Lutheran - Lutherans Concerned
Methodist - Affirmation
Presbyterian - More Light Presbyterians; Presbyterians for Lesbian and Gay Concerns
Christian Scientist - Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered Christian Scientists
Disciples of Christ - Gay, Lesbian and Affirming Disciples Alliance
Evangelical Christian - Evangelicals Concerned
Jehovah's Witness - Common Bond
Mormon - Affirmation
Mennonite/Brethren - Council for Lesbian and Gay Concerns
Pentecostal - Fellowship of Reconciling Pentecostals International
Quaker - Q-Light
Seventh Day Adventist - Kinship International
Unitarian Universalist - Interweave
United Church of Christ - Coalition for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Concerns

There are also organizations for gay Jews, Muslims and Buddhists.

[post=287957]Quoted post[/post]​

 

[tightfit]

Well - I'm an atheist - and thank God I am!

 

[prepstudinsc]

Freddie makes some great points about Christian churches. In my church which is dually aligned with two different Baptist conventions (Baptists do not have denominations, because each Baptist congregation is autonomous, so we belong to "conventions", which are made up of autonomous churches of supposedly similar mindesets) The American Baptist Churches in the USA run the gamut from extremely liberal (questioning the doctrine of the Trinity, questioning if Jesus was the Son of God, saying that the Bible is just a bunch of writings by holy men) to very evangelical churches, while the Southern Baptist Convention is what is generally thought of when someone mentions "Baptist"--the ultra-conservative, Bible-thumping, redneck, fat, blowhard, hairsprayed, good-ol' boy preacher, who while condemning everything from the pulpit does exactly the opposite in his personal life. My congregation is American Baptist, and is pretty much middle of the road leaning toward the evangelical side, but having people of the educated social strata, they realize that there is a lot more than just black and white to every side of the argument.

When we have communion, the Pastor always makes it clear that the Table of the Lord is open to all believers, not just Baptists. It's not our church's altar, it's God's altar, and it's time for all Christians to commune together.

What matters is that a person has faith in God through Jesus, not if someone was gay. That's like saying only brown eyed people will go to heaven. Jesus makes it clear in the Bible that we are to love God and our neighbor as ourselves. (Mark 12:29-34) Jesus also talks about love in John 13:34, " a new comand I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

In Luke 12:1-12, Jesus clearly speaks out against hypocrisy, "the yeast of the Pharisees", and talks about the worth of each human. If God knows the very number of the hairs on our heads, and knows each sparrow, why do you think that He wouldn't care about you? It seems pretty clear to me. People try to over analyze it. The christian message is very basic, that's the whole thing. We only need faith the size of a mustard seed. People go in trying to be all grandiose about it, and God only wants us to have faith like a child. Just be open to Him, because God wants a relationship with you.

 

[jonb]

Originally posted by Dr Rock@Mar 2 2005, 07:12 PM
you mean the bible doesn't attribute any mention of homosexuality to jesus.  I bet he actually said plenty about it, and lots of other things, that nobody remembered by the time they wrote the bible.  which is yet another reason why treating the bible as the "word of god" is really retarded.

[post=287910]Quoted post[/post]​

Well, if it's not mentioned, it obviously meant he didn't have an opinion on it one way or the other. Any assumption of Jesus saying anything about homosexuality would therefore be a type of hermeneutic jujitsu.

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by jonb+Mar 3 2005, 09:27 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jonb &#064; Mar 3 2005, 09:27 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dr Rock@Mar 2 2005, 07:12 PM
you mean the bible doesn&#39;t attribute any mention of homosexuality to jesus. I bet he actually said plenty about it, and lots of other things, that nobody remembered by the time they wrote the bible. which is yet another reason why treating the bible as the "word of god" is really retarded.

[post=287910]Quoted post[/post]​

Well, if it&#39;s not mentioned, it obviously meant he didn&#39;t have an opinion on it one way or the other.

[post=288085]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]
... or the guys writing it didn&#39;t agree with whatever his opinion was, or simply weren&#39;t around to hear it. my point is that whatever the bible claims jesus said or did was already filtered through at least several decades of word-of-mouth before it was written down.

 

[TheOverlord]

I&#39;m a Muslim...(ahhh&#33;&#33; run away&#33;&#33, and every religious figure in christianity is in Islam also.

The book of barnabus (which was written by one of the apostles of Jesus, I&#39;m pretty sure his name was...barnabus...) actually has some quotes of jesus condeming homosexuality. Not sure exactly what it was.

Many prophets in christian (and muslim) stories are said to at sometime condemn homosexuality. We can try to dance around the fact that these any sect of christianity condemns it, but if you study, you will see that it does condemn homosexuality.

My question isn&#39;t if your sect of christianity condemns homosexuality, my question is do you know it says homosexuality is wrong, but still follow the religion anyway.

 

[Freddie53]

Fpr those who may not know, the book of Barnabus is not in the Bible. I had never heard of it until I read this. There are several writings that weren&#39;t included including the Gospel of Thomas.

As for following the religion, if our instrance to heaven is based on being siniless adn perfect and ALWAYS following the religion, then all the beautiful mansions in heaven will be empty. None of us will be going.

In Christianity, going to heaven is by invitation by God to all who reconcile to God. Christiians say through Jesus, but non Christians would say God or Allah or whatever name they give to the Divine Creator.

quote=TheOverlord,Mar 3 2005, 08:37 PM]
I&#39;m a Muslim...(ahhh&#33;&#33; run away&#33;&#33, and every religious figure in christianity is in Islam also.

The book of barnabus (which was written by one of the apostles of Jesus, I&#39;m pretty sure his name was...barnabus...) actually has some quotes of jesus condeming homosexuality. Not sure exactly what it was.

Many prophets in christian (and muslim) stories are said to at sometime condemn homosexuality. We can try to dance around the fact that these any sect of christianity condemns it, but if you study, you will see that it does condemn homosexuality.

My question isn&#39;t if your sect of christianity condemns homosexuality, my question is do you know it says homosexuality is wrong, but still follow the religion anyway.

[post=288128]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

The book you were referring to must be The Gospel of Barnabas, which is almost universally accepted to be a medieval forgery, even by Islamic scholars. One of the main pieces of evidence against its authenticity is the dating. Barnabas was a companion of Paul (not of Jesus), yet the book refers to Muhammad in the past tense. How could a first century Christian make past tense references about someone who wasn&#39;t even born until the late sixth century? If you want to find some evidence that Jesus disapproved of homosexuality, the place is to look is not in a book written over a millenium after Jesus died by a Muslim writing under a misleading pseudonym. That could hardly be considered authoritative.

 

[BuffMusicIdol]

One of the good things about religion for me is that it gives us principles and values, passed through nearly inumerable generations. Obviously there is filtering going on. But basic values and principles are usually preserved. The essence of religion is love, and how to treat members of the human race so they can flourish. However, humanity seems to need to assert and control, and we loose our perpsective and become cynical about it. Humans tend to be power mongers, create dominance, use extortion, greed, etc., to self aggrandize, and set themselves up as a false light. This has been going on for how long???? But men do not nullify truth, although they can do a good job in disguising it--but only temporarily. Disguising it doesn&#39;t remove the basis of truth. Religion is supposed to be moral conduct based on truth. Men screw it up because they need to feed their egos, pocket books, etc.

My religion condemns homosexuality. That means a ton of members condemn homosexuals with the misguided, misunderstanding that the person is no longer "worthy". How odd this seems to me since anyone who believes in the atonement of Christ needs redemption and salvation. How would they be qualified to condemn anyone. Seems they should condemn their self first.

Let he who is without guilt cast the first.......

Although most of the Christian community considers my religion a cult rather than Christian, members of my church and I claim to be a Christian. I am Mormon. I love being Mormon because I scare the hell out of conservative Mormons and I find people of nearly any belief highly intriguing. People are people. They act pretty predictable in most circumstances. I think that is plenty of common ground for community, connection, and learning tolerance and love, regardless of presence or absense of religion.

Buff

 

[TheOverlord]

Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper@Mar 4 2005, 12:24 AM
The book you were referring to must be The Gospel of Barnabas, which is almost universally accepted to be a medieval forgery, even by Islamic scholars. One of the main pieces of evidence against its authenticity is the dating. Barnabas was a companion of Paul (not of Jesus), yet the book refers to Muhammad in the past tense. How could a first century Christian make past tense references about someone who wasn&#39;t even born until the late sixth century? If you want to find some evidence that Jesus disapproved of homosexuality, the place is to look is not in a book written over a millenium after Jesus died by a Muslim writing under a misleading pseudonym. That could hardly be considered authoritative.

[post=288190]Quoted post[/post]​

You are probably right...I couldve sworn otherwise...I&#39;m too lazy to look it up.

But considering Islam does say Jesus was a prophet of God, and carried his word to the people, and how Islam considers homosexuality to be one of the worst things humans can do...I would swear that somewhere in some credible scripture of christianity, Jesus must have said something about it.

Oh, and does anyone have a list of the names of the apostles that traveled with Jesus?

 

[prepstudinsc]

Mark 3:13-19 Jesus Selects the Twelve Disciples

Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. He appointed twelve--designating them apostles--that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach and to have the authority to drive out demons. These are the twelve that he appointed: Simon (tho whom he gave the name Peter); James son of Zebedee and his brother John (tho whome he gave the name Boangeres, which means sons of Thunder); Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Thaddeus, Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.


Here are some interesting facts about the Disciples:

Simon Peter (son of John): A fisherman. Impulsive, later bold in preaching about Jesus. Matt. 4-18-20, Mk 8:29-33, Lk 22:31-34, Jn 21:15-19, Acts 2: 14-41, 10:1-11:18

James son of Zebedee: A fisherman. Ambitious, short tempered, judgemental, deeply committed to Jesus. Mk 3:17, 10:35-40 Lk 9:52-56 Acts 12:1,2

John son of Zebedee: A fisherman. Ambitious and judgemental
Mk 1:19, 10:35-40, Lk 9:52-56, Jn 19:52-56, Jn 19:26, 27, Jn 21:20-22

Andrew, Peter&#39;s brother: A fisherman, eager to bring others to Jesus.
Mt4:18-20, Jn 1:35-42, 6:8,9, 12:20-22

Philip: A fisherman had a questioning attitude Mt 10:3, Jn1:43-46, 6:2-7, 12:20-22, 14:8-11

Bartholomew (Nathaniel): Honest and straightforward Mark 3:18, Jn 1:45-51, 21:1-13

Matthew (Levi): Tax Collector, was despised because of his dishonest career
Matt 9:9-13, Mk 2:15-17, Lk 5:27-32

Thomas (the twin): courage and doubt, Mt10:3, Jn 14:5, 20:24-29, 21:1-13

James (son of Alphaeus): Mt 10:3, Mk 3:18, Lk 6:15

Thaddeus (Judas son of James) Mt 10:3, Mk 3:18, Jn 14:22

Simon the Zealot: Fierce patriotism Mt 10:4, Mk 3:18, Lk 6:15

Judas Iscariot: Treacherous and greedy Mt 26:20-25, Lk 22:47-48, Jn 12:4-8


An interesting note in my Bible says "Jesus&#39; faithful disciples were ordinary men who became extraordinary because of Jesus Christ. Despite their confusion and lack of understanding during His lifetime, they became powerful witnesses to His resurrection. Their lives were transformed by God&#39;s power. The story of Jesus&#39; disciples does not end with the Gospels. It continues in the book of Acts and many of the letters."

 

[Freddie53]

This is the problem with Christianity. All those sins. The four main Gospels tell the life of Jesus. This is what Jesus said about the law and sin:

"Love your God with all your might and with all your strength. Love your neighbor as yourself."

Are gay people neighbors? I would think so. So we have a commandment to love gay people as ourselves. It doesn&#39;t matter if we are gay, striaght or bi. We still love our neighbors as ourselves.

And the doctrine of sin is scewed. Sin is NOT doing certain things wrong, though those things might be sin.

SIN IS SEPARATION FROM GOD&#33;&#33;&#33;

Christianity and all the major religions are about restoring man&#39;s relationship to God. So if a person has his relationship restored to God, then he is in heaven period. I say restored, every person is born with the burden of not being perfect. So we have to let God perfect us. God does the perfecting. We don&#39;t. We just allow it And God comes to us. We don&#39;t really go to Him. We wouldn&#39;t know how anyway. But God&#39;s Holy Spirit comes to every person who every lived or will live. All are given a chance to know God.

It absolutely pisses off most Christians that God is so merciful that if God had come to Adolf Hitler on his last day on earth and Adolf had said yes to God then he would have gone to heaven. I am not saying Adolf Hitler is in heaven. I am saying that God has that power, we don&#39;t. From what we know it doesn&#39;t appear that Adolf and God had a chit chat that last day. But all we really know is what the Russians have told us. We aren&#39;t the judge.

My personal belief is that hell is a burning ground or waste facility where all imperfections go. I don&#39;t believe that those who refuse God burn forever. The Bible in the early part says that man would die if he sinned. Then God allowed redemption for those who wanted it. So I believe those who don&#39;t want to spent time after death with God just cease to exist. There judgment is done at death, not way out there somewhere.

Jacinto, I don&#39;t fully understand purgatory. I don&#39;t understand its origins and how Catholics came to believe in it. But I have no problem with purgatory. It sounds like a wonderful doctrine. I woulnd&#39;t mine an explanation about it.

A quick note. I was not raised Methodist. I had a Sunday School teacher that did nothing but talk anti Catholic. Then when I grew up I found that most of what I learned about the Roman Catholic Church is false. And now I go to a church that follows almost identically the same liturgy as the Catholic Church does. And a side note, if you hear someone condemen liturgical services. Watch out. Liturgical means Scriptural. The Mass or is the Methodist Church the Ritual is almost word for word from the Bible. Hard to condemn that.

Back to the thesis of this statement. Acts that we do that separate us from God are sin. Playing a game of poker might separate some people from God and not separate other people from God.

And who is the judge? Well God is not us. And I suspect the person knows if what he is doing is separating himself from God. And when it comes down to it. It is between God and each person only.

My job as a Chrsitian is to tell others what I have experienced and share the Bible. That is all. It is not my job to save anyone. That is God&#39;s job to go and visit with people and try to restore that relationship that God wants with all His children. And how HE does it is HIS business.

Overlord, are you going to Heaven when you die? You are a Muslim. I believe that God (Allah) has come to you and offered a relationship with Him. If you have a relationship with God, then yes Overlord, you will be in Heaven. Not all Christians believe that. This is my personal belief.

Originally posted by TheOverlord+Mar 4 2005, 04:38 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheOverlord &#064; Mar 4 2005, 04:38 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-DoubleMeatWhopper@Mar 4 2005, 12:24 AM
.

[post=288190]Quoted post[/post]​

You are probably right...I couldve sworn otherwise...I&#39;m too lazy to look it up.

But considering Islam does say Jesus was a prophet of God, and carried his word to the people, and how Islam considers homosexuality to be one of the worst things humans can do...I would swear that somewhere in some credible scripture of christianity, Jesus must have said something about it.

Oh, and does anyone have a list of the names of the apostles that traveled with Jesus?

[post=288230]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

 

[prepstudinsc]

If I remember correctly, the word liturgy comes from the Greek word "leitourgia", which means "the work of the people".

The Episcopal/Anglican church resulted from Henry VIII&#39;s argument about divorce, from the Episcopal church, the Wesleys birthed the Methodist church, so it&#39;s no wonder that liturgies are remarkably similar. Even the liturgies of the Lutheran and Moravian churches are very similar, as well as the Orthodox churches, too. It&#39;s easy to see the common ground. When one goes to a synagogue, the direct tie to the Jewish ceremony is quite evident, too.

 

[Satsfakshun]

The bible was originally written in Greek. I believe the document we have today has been seriously re-written over the last 2,000 years by people who had a goal of maintaining all power for themselves.

Namely, people who claim to do "God&#39;s will." Mis-translate a word here and there, leave out certain passages, and you can write all kinds of crazy ideas and call it the gosphel word of God. It now becoming common knowledge how the role of women as subservient to men was totally "read into" the bible, when the actual ministry of Christ attempted quite the opposite. You see this all over the bible, anytime some law or even the spoken word of Christ strangely echoes the word of the status quo, you can bet some monkey business has been going on. Subsequently, you have lots of right wing religious bigots who believe it&#39;s their mission to take over our government and make their God&#39;s law the law of the land. They totally ignore that Jesus&#39;s instructions were quite the opposite: render unto Caesar, the thing&#39;s that are Caesars. O no, the bigots say, Jesus didn&#39;t mean what he plainly said... here&#39;s what he meant...

And what about a camel passing through the eye of the needle. Plainly, Jesus meant what he said, but this is almost universally misinterpreted because of the discomfort it would cause the status quo in our society. So maybethe Greek text of the Bible says it&#39;s a sin to sleep with a child and this gets interpreted as sleeping with a "boy." Why? Because the status quo, at the time, often slept with girls as young as 11 or 12, of course they&#39;d often take tyhem as wives. Jesus didn&#39;t come here to make things comfortable for those in charge, but to liberate mandkind from the bounds of those in charge. It&#39;s just that those in charge, being smart and deviant, quickly figured out how to manipulate God&#39;s word and our ignorance to change Christ&#39;s message. You can see it right in front of your face every day if you&#39;ll just open your eyes. Jesus said, "Judge not, let ye be not judged." Did he mean you can judge sometimes? You can judge who is sinner and who can be denied basic rights because of our perception of what God thinks of you? Or did Jesus mean what he plainly said?

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Originally posted by Freddie53@Mar 4 2005, 02:34 PM
Jacinto, I don&#39;t fully understand purgatory. I don&#39;t understand its origins and how Catholics came to believe in it. But I have no problem with purgatory. It sounds like a wonderful doctrine. I woulnd&#39;t mine an explanation about it.

Many Catholics don&#39;t really understand Purgatory either&#33; A lot of people view Purgatory as a place of punishment, but that&#39;s not accurate. Purgatory is a place full of hope, because the souls in Purgatory know that they are going to be in the presence of God after their spell in Purgatory is done. The name Purgatory is related to the word purge. The belief is that sin taints the soul and makes it unfit to enjoy the Beatific Vision. Before a person enters his eternal reward, the stains of sin must be removed: you must dress properly for the banquet. Purgatory is a place (or state) of cleansing; the soul is purified before it can accept full, eternal union with God. Think about this: most religions encourage prayers for the dead. If someone&#39;s soul is in Heaven, he doesn&#39;t need your prayers. If someone is in Hell, all the prayers in the world&#39;t going to do him any good. Catholics offer prayers for those undergoing expiation for their sins in Purgatory. Just a note: the existence of Purgatory is not Catholic dogma. We are not required to believe in it in order to be in full communion with the Church.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Originally posted by Satsfakshun@Mar 4 2005, 04:52 PM
The bible was originally written in Greek. I believe the document we have today has been seriously re-written over the last 2,000 years by people who had a goal of maintaining all power for themselves.

The New Testament was written in Greek.Tthe larger portion. the Old Testament, was written in Hebrew. Some parts that are accepted by the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox were written in Aramaic. I don&#39;t think we can say that the Bible was re-written , but verses have certainly been taken out of context and been re-interpreted to justify some peoples&#39; ideas. That is a misuse of Scripture.

So maybethe Greek text of the Bible says it&#39;s a sin to sleep with a child and this gets interpreted as sleeping with a "boy." Why? Because the status quo, at the time, often slept with girls as young as 11 or 12, of course they&#39;d often take tyhem as wives.

There is no direct reference to age limits for sexual partners in either Testament.