religion and homosexuality

Dr Rock

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Originally posted by TheOverlord@Mar 10 2005, 08:33 AM
If it was completely genetic, wouldn't there be less homosexuals around, since same sex couples can't bear children?
[post=289723]Quoted post[/post]​
nope. could simply be a combination of recessive genes that has the biggest influence. I don't think it can really be quantified biologically though, because there are relatively few people who are completely hetero or completely homo. I think the level of influence on sexuality caused by specific genes would vary considerably from person to person, not necessarily based on exact identifiable combinations.
 

TheOverlord

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Good point Dr. rock.

Is there really this little amount of scientific discovery about sexuality? You would think it would be a huge topic amoungst the....uh...smart.
 

Dr Rock

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Originally posted by TheOverlord@Mar 10 2005, 04:04 PM
Good point Dr. rock.

Is there really this little amount of scientific discovery about sexuality? You would think it would be a huge topic amoungst the....uh...smart.
[post=289777]Quoted post[/post]​
well, it is. but bear in mind that the study of sexuality in ANY form has only been socially acceptable for less than a century - and the study of many of the most important aspects of sexuality hasn't been recognized until much more recently (and even now it's frowned upon in the majority of cultures worldwide). it also remains a difficult field to investigate scientifically while so many people have a point to prove or an axe to grind, even in more enlightened/permissive cultures.
 

jonb

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As I pointed out, male homosexuality is, so goes the hypothesis, on the X chromosome. And for women, it apparently has something to do with greater fertility; how it causes this, no one knows just yet, but there's a fairly significant positive correlation.

Genes can do crazy things in combination, either with other genes or with epigenetic variables.
 

TheOverlord

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If you talking genetics, it probably comes down to the old psychological arguement of nature vs nurture.

nature=genes. nurture=environment.

You can have the genes to be tall, but if you don't get enough nutrition, you won't be tall. Its a combination of both.

Even if that was true (going back to the religious viewpoint), that means it would be possible to prevent or promote homosexuality. (Such as my mother's reasoning, which is if someone is raised right to follow their religion, they will know not to be homosexual.)

If thats the case, why would it be the homosexuals fault? Wouldn't God (if God were to condemn homosexuality) punish who raised the homosexual instead of the actual homosexual? lol, I'm just questioning my own theories.

P.S. Please don't hate my mother, lol. She just VERY conservative. How is a lebanese born arab-muslim as conservative as her? I don't know. She actually argued with me one time that the reason the economy is bad is because women are allowed to work, and it takes jobs away from men.
 

hungthick

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okay i dont know if anyone else mentioned this because i have skimmed the responses because they are QUITE lengthy

Roman Catholics are accepting of gays in the parish and the Church is accepting of them (and more all the time) but NOT as priests!!!

love ya all!!! muah
 

Freddie53

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I know that Fundie Christianity very much believes that homosexuality is a sin. In fact I have heard some fundamental Christians say that no homosexual can get into heaven. Homosexuality is the unforgivable sin. Murder is forgivable, stealing, raping a girl and everything else except homosexuality.

Now so far no one from the Christian religion has come forward and said that they believe that homosexuality is wrong and then given references where it is wrong.

So far every Chrsitian posting has said that homosexuality is OK if you are a Christian. Some have hinted that in Christianity, homosexuality is not a strong attribute but homosexuals are totally accepted in the church with full previldedges.

I would like to hear if someone can use the Bible to support the idea that homosexuality is some unforgivable sin unique from all other sin. I would like for someone to point out that homosexuals should be just second class Christains and base that on the Bible.
 

Pappy

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I don't usually get involved in religous discussions but!! If my memory serves me correctly the only thing mentioned in the Bible as being an unforgivable sin would be stealing from the church. :)
 

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Originally posted by Freddie53@Mar 11 2005, 06:15 PM
Now so far no one from the Christian religion has come forward and said that they believe that homosexuality is wrong and then given references where it is wrong.

That's because Tender is no longer a member here. (Those who have been here for a long time will remember Tender and her quotes from the Bible condemning ass piracy. And she was always so polite about it: "I have nothing against anyone here personally, and I respect your right to be homosexual, but I feel sad that you're going to Hell after you die because of it.")
 

prepstudinsc

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Tender comdemned anything she didn't believe in--and she waffled in her opinion. It was one way in a post, then two posts later she would totally contadict herself, and if you called her about it, she would tell you that you were wrong, and get all pouty. That was one poster I was glad to see leave.

She is the type who gives Christians a bad name. She is the judgemental, two faced, hypocrite that turns people away from God instead of bringing them to a relationship with God and showing how a true Christian acts.
 

TheOverlord

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Since Islam is sorta the new new testiment (I has all the prophets that christianity does plus prophet Muhammad), and Islam says several times that homosexuality is wrong, I could've sworn that christianity, and probably even judism, bans homosexuality.

On a side note, Islam's main difference from Christianity whas Jesus was, and Muhammad being a prophet. There are subtle differences, but really, thats the main one. And by Christianity, i mean not-catholic. There are HUGE differences between how Catholics practice and Muslims practice, but the beliefs are pretty much the same.
 

Freddie53

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Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper+Mar 11 2005, 01:57 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DoubleMeatWhopper &#064; Mar 11 2005, 01:57 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Freddie53@Mar 11 2005, 06:15 PM
Now so far no one from the Christian religion has come forward and said that they believe that homosexuality is wrong and then given references where it is wrong.

That&#39;s because Tender is no longer a member here. (Those who have been here for a long time will remember Tender and her quotes from the Bible condemning ass piracy. And she was always so polite about it:

"I have nothing against anyone here personally, and I respect your right to be homosexual, but I feel sad that you&#39;re going to Hell after you die because of it.")
[post=290183]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]
Damn. Last time I read the Bible Jesus said he was going to be the judge. Didn&#39;t know this women. She is an impostor. Her judicial robe is worthless.

To answer Pappy, sin is separatation from God. Acts we do as humans that separate us from God are acts that cause or complete sin. We are under relationship with God now, not just rules and regulations.

So there is no one single act that will keep you our of heaven except one and that is failure to accept God&#39;s offer to have a relationship with you.

This idea that a certain act committed has invalidated your ticket to heaven isn&#39;t substantiated in the Bible as I understand it.

Only God knows your heart and what your relationship is to the Creator. And as I understand it God offers Grace to All.
 

prepstudinsc

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Judaism does ban homosexuality...there are references to it in the Old Testament.
That&#39;s where some Christians get their bans on it, however, Jesus never makes any specific reference to it.

Many conservative Christians use the OT to condemn gays, but ignore a lot of the other OT laws, picking and choosing what fits their agenda. Jesus summed up the OT laws in his two commandments, "Love your God with all your heart, and all your soul, and all your strength and all your mind, and love your neightbor as yourself". He never makes any other mention of things like women cutting their hair, speaking out in church, as Paul did, which were cultural issues, but which were construed as sin. We ignore those things in most modern churches, yet we focus on OT laws, when Jesus came to fulfill the law. It doesn&#39;t make any sense why people pick and choose, except that what is "taboo" is more titillating.

In Judaism, their salvation is based on following ALL of the OT laws to the letter of the law. In Christianity, salvation is not based on works, but on faith in Jesus, because His death on the Cross fulfilled all the Law. Our faith in Him will automatically want to make us carry out good works as a testimony of the salvific faith we have.

We can and never will be perfect. We are human, if we relied on our good works to gain entrance into heaven, we&#39;d be striving forever, and always come up one step short. Humans are born imperfect, it&#39;s just the way we are. Thanks to Adam and Eve, we are all born with sin and lost our perfectibility. Martin Luther summed it up well in his hymn, "A Mighty Fortress" when he wrote: "Did we in our own strength confide, our striving would be losing; were not the right one on our side, the Man of God&#39;s own chosing. Dost ask who that may be? Christ Jesus is is He. Lord Sabaoth His name, from age to age the same, and He will win the battle."

God and Jesus don&#39;t care what we&#39;ve done in the past, they are here to forgive.
They love us all whether straight, gay or in between. People may twist Bible passages and take things out of context, but the truth of the matter is that we all need God and we&#39;re not going to get to Heaven without God.

No mention is made in the NT by Jesus of homosexuality. Paul talks about it, and for him, I think it is probably more of a cultural thing. In the Old Testament, there are references against it, too, but there are references to not touching women who are having their periods, eating shellfish, and mixing dairy and meat in the same meal. When is the last time that you had some shrimp or a good greasy cheeseburger? You&#39;ve sinned according to the Bible. Women aren&#39;t supposed to cut their hair or talk in church, either, but I bet that all the women on here cut their hair. They&#39;ve sinned, too.

As an evangelical Christian, it bothers me when my fellow Christians get up and holler and shout and carry on about things being right and wrong, but they are so hypocritical. In my book sin is sin is sin. I know that I don&#39;t do all the right things everyday, so I need to ask God for forgiveness. That&#39;s what&#39;s so great about being a Christian. I know that God loves me and will forgive me, eventhough I&#39;m a sinner. God is a loving God, God doesn&#39;t want to alienate anyone from Heaven.
That&#39;s why I just don&#39;t believe and can&#39;t believe that He&#39;s going to condemn gay people unless they non-believers, in which case they will be with all the other non-believers--straight, gay, whatever. Jesus preached a Gospel of love, not hate and that&#39;s what the church needs to focus on, because many more people would be served and healed.
 

B_DoubleMeatWhopper

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Originally posted by prepstudinsc@Mar 11 2005, 08:27 PM
It doesn&#39;t make any sense why people pick and choose, except that what is "taboo" is more titillating.

But Martin Luther did some picking and choosing himself. See below...

In Judaism, their salvation is based on following ALL of the OT laws to the letter of the law. In Christianity, salvation is not based on works, but on faith in Jesus, because His death on the Cross fulfilled all the Law. Our faith in Him will automatically want to make us carry out good works as a testimony of the salvific faith we have.

In the Epistle of St. James (2:24), we read, "You must perceive that a person is justified by his works and not by faith alone." Martin Luther was the champion of the &#39;faith alone&#39; ideology and felt that corporal works of mercy were an idle vanity as practiced by the Pharisees. He found this verse (and a few others in the same chapter of James) to be an affront to his reliance on faith alone. He tossed the Epistle of St. James out the window, and his German translation of the Bible lacked this book. He omitted a few others that contradicted his own views as well.

The moral? We can all justify our own opinions biblically if we pick and choose.
 

prepstudinsc

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While Martin Luther makes the statement that the book of James is "but a book of straw and contains nothing evangelical" and then goes on the make a crack that it was probably written by a Jew who knew nothing of the Christian fatih, but that it is a fine book, he also says similar things about the books of Hebrews, Jude, and Revelation.

My point was that in the hymn a Mighty Fortress, which is the Lutheran national anthem, it clearly sums up the Christian point of view that we have to have faith to be saved, not works, as in the Old Testament. Jesus has come to fulfill the law SHOULD we choose to believe.

That is our choice since we do have free-will, although people from Calvinistic backgrounds would take exception to that, stating that it&#39;s already predestined that we would have been selected by God to make the decision to have that saving relationship or not. I do know some people from very strict Calvinistic churches who actually believe in those doctrines and because of that their churches don&#39;t have mission programs because it&#39;s predestined who will or will not ever hear the Gospel. It&#39;s kind of bizarre that people will take things to such extremes.

Anyway, the point is Christianity doesn&#39;t refuse entrance into heaven to gay or straight or bi people should they have a relationship with God by faith, unlike Judaism which is a works based religion. Christianity flip-flops the works being a visible result of your faith, rather than being the saving basis of your faith.
 

madame_zora

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Yeah, I remember tender well, though not fondly. I think at that time, she became the embodiment of everything I find abhorent about the church today. She was very poorly read, her opinions were apparently based on nothing, she was judgemental, willfully stupid when others quoted the Bible showing she was misinterpreting, haughty and mean spirited.

In our last round with this topic, I can&#39;t remember anyone other than Paul in Corinthians comdemning homosexuality specifically in the New Testament, but he also condemns ALL sexual immorality equally. Paul was not Jesus Christ, so I personally gloss over his words anyway. I find his ego unappealing. Basically, anyone who uses the Old Testament to justify ANYTHING has completely missed the purpose of Jesus&#39; visit, so I&#39;d reject categorically any such theory. So deeply sad that the majority of people who read the Bible will never grasp it&#39;s intention.
All through the New Testamant are severe warnings about judgement, it being in God&#39;s hands alone, that the same measure you use to judge your brother God will use on you, why worry about the speck in your brother&#39;s eye while ignoring the plank in your own? (my personal favorite&#33;) and these indictments were placed on people inside the church, NOT the unbelievers&#33; It seems the only things God really gets mad about are the bad behaviours of his followers. Gee I wish more people could actually interpret what they read instead of just belching back whatever they&#39;re told to believe.
 

Freddie53

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Jana, while you were out a few days you must have taken an advance writing course. This paragraph is one of your best. You summed up more stuff about one person in one paragrah than I have seen in a while.

You mentioned Paul as another poster. We have to always remember that Paul wrote letters to specific churches for specific problems in those churches at that time. Most of Paul&#39;s comments were to specific new converts that were trying to bring in the fertility religions into the church and into the actual worship service. In the fertility religions nearly every possible sex act was done and glorified in worship to a sex god or goddess. Paul did tell the women to be silent in one church. Tradition says that it was just one group of women who were causing trouble. We know that there were deaconess in the Bible and Paul himself went to visit churches where a woman was the leader. There are references all throughout the Bible showing women as leaders. Mirium, the sister of Moses, I believe is the first woman religious leader. She led in worship with the tambourine.

Paul and Peter had some disagreements. Paul also had problems with Barnabus and Mark. Mark is thought to be the oldest Gospel written. So all those early leaders had a canon of beliefs that they all agreed with, but there were some differences.

Tradition also tells us that partially because of those differences that early a creed was formulated. It is not in the Bible. But tradition says that it goes all the way back to the Apostles. It is called the Apostles&#39; Creed. It sums up basic Christian theology. It does not cover what sin is. And I will quote the line in which sin is mentioned. "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the forgiveness of sin, the resurrection of the body and everlasting life."

Later, I believe in was in the 300&#39;s AD, some more questions came up and the Nicene Creed was written. It is much longer. It includes everything in the Apostles&#39; Creed and additional beliefs that it was agreed to at that time were tradtional Christian beliefs. Today the Eastern Orthodox, Anglican (Episcopal, Roman Catholic, Methodist, and Lutheren recite one of these creeds on a regular basis, usually during the Celebration of Holy Communion. There is no addtional qualifiers concerning sin in the Nicene Creed.

So that is is what all early Christians believed "forgiveness of sin." Sin is separation from God. Human acts that separate us from God are considered sin. In grace the relationship is restored. We are all sinful creatures. Christianity is about restoring man&#39;s relationship to God.


Yeah, I remember tender well, though not fondly. I think at that time, she became the embodiment of everything I find abhorent about the church today. She was very poorly read, her opinions were apparently based on nothing, she was judgemental, willfully stupid when others quoted the Bible showing she was misinterpreting, haughty and mean spirited.