Religion?

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jerkin4-10: lurker...ive been recently put in the middle of a circle of arab muslims...at the swap meet interestingly enough...these guys are from saudi arabia, im almost sure...and they have such a deep hatred for jews and westerners...its just not even funny...after listening to a small rant on one of their parts...i asked...'would you like to live in a world without jews?'...'absolutely' was the response from ALL of them...now whether or not ALL arab muslims feel that way....well...i kinda think they do...remember the saudi prince that offered the $10 million to rudy in NYC, with the comment that 'maybe americans need to re-think their middle eastern policy'...and rudy handed him his check back...now this man is a reviered representative of his PEOPLE...not just country...and leads by example...what do you think saudis as a whole think?..a muslim state...
im sorry im so argumentative about this...but im really passionate about this...

 

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Bob_Goblin: Okay, I've been a lurker here for sometime, but there's finally a discussion going on that I might actually shed some light on. If you want to know what Muslims believe, don't ask a Rabbi. Ask a Muslim. I am Syrian-American and a Muslim. We do believe in the Old Testament and Allah is the God of Abraham and the God of Moses. We all serve the One God in our own way. The Old Testament is the foundation of Islam. The Quran is supplemental scripture which explains how the Old Testament beliefs apply to Muslims just as the New Testament explains how the Old Testament beliefs apply to Christians. Keep in mind that the Old Testament is at its very heart a covenant with the Israelites. The Muslim Arabs and Christian Gentiles are not Israelites. The Quran and New Testament are there as addenda to the Old Testament, not as replacements for it. The Old Testament receives much veneration from practicing Muslims.
Much of what DMW said is true, but I do take exception with one of his statements. As a Catholic he surely must realize that the Old Testament that his Bible has is not the same as that accepted by the Jews and Protestants, nor the same as that of the Muslims. The Catholics and Eastern Orthodox accept a few extra books that the Jews, Protestants and Muslims do not. Also the Muslims accept "The Secrets of Enoch", a book not recognized by any Christians except those of the Abyssinian Church. But we do accept all the books of the Palestinian Canon as being the Word of God. And that is from a practicing Muslim.

 

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jerkin4-10: bob goblin...what a great name...  thank you for the clarification bob...and so nicely put...2 things though...
1. what you are saying is the quran is to muslims is what the NT is to christians?  that a fair but simplistic observation?...2. if you will read my comment about the rabbi...it was directed clearly at bliss machine...asking about western religion...not to DMW...and...on a more controversial note...my muslim friends and i were discussing this...and the similarities between islam and judiasm are frightening...LOL...but you couldnt get  them to see or admit to that...nice job on the clarification bob...

 

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7x6andchg: If my Theology 101 education is still intact, I think the books in my Bible you're talking about, Bob_Goblin, are referred to as the The Apocrypha.

It is true, we Catholics have a whole 'nother section of the Book.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Ah, Bob's point is well-taken; we do indeed have extra books in the Old Testament. The Catholics and Eastern Orthodox call these books Deuterocanonical ('of the second canon'); Protestants call them the Apocrypha ('hidden'). And as Bob stated, no Christian sect outside of the Ethiopian Monophysites accept The Secrets of Enoch as canonical.

 

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jerkin4-10: so...just to clarify...what books are left out of the OT in the book of islam, but included in the christian version?...this will be interesting...DMW...still got those books you can look it up in?

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

The Catholic and Eastern Orthodox accept the following books which the Jews, Protestants and Muslims do not:
Tobit, Judith, Wisom, Sirach, Baruch, I and II Maccabees, and parts of Esther and Daniel. The Deuterocanonical parts of Daniel are Susanna, Bel and the Dragon and The Song of the Three Young Men.

 

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da_blissmachine: Is there somewhere I can get a copy of all of these texts?

 

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awellhungboi: Willis Barnstone's The Other Bible offers selections from many noncanonical works, dablissmachine.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0062500309/102-7715404-5022550?v=glance

My copy is almost worn out. I highly recommend it, with the caveat that Barnstone offers selections, few entire texts.

Any decent research library, or University bookstore, should have the books DMW mentions available in translated versions, as well.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Any Catholic edition of the Bible will contain the Deuterocanonical books in the Old Testament.

 

[B_RoysToy]

When I was in my early 30s, trying to learn all I could about what I believed and why, I was told one of the
14 Septuagist (apocrypha) books told that Jesus had red hair and when he was a young boy his toys became animated, unlike those of the other children. His toy duck sprouted wings and flew away!

Do any of you whizes just happen to know which of these books give this info.?

Thanks, Luke

 

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Tender: [quote author=longtimelurker link=board=meetgreet;num=1063159525;start=40#59 date=10/26/03 at 11:44:42]

Tender, if this is because of the recent violent acts by some extremist muslim groups then please understand that the acts that have been carried out in the name of Allah are just as repulsive in the minds of the vast majority of muslims (even moreso in fact, as they are having their gods name being misused) as they are in the rest of the mainstream population.

Besides, it is not only muslims that have such problems - the N Ireland troubles have had plenty of bombings and murders in the name of Catholicism or Protestantism.[/quote]


AH SO true...
NO i do not think that, because of any recent events...
that is about as dumb as some beleiving all Chrisians are wacko because one guy blows up someone saying God told him too.
There were individuals resposible for those acts, not an entire faith of itself.
but as we are on that note, i did find it repulsive that so many muslims seemed to be blissfully thrilled with what happened. Then again that sorry media is so untrustworthy, nothing but crap they give us.
Im sure there are many muslims that would not condone any of that, just as there are many Christians that get the bad end of the stick for things a few wackos do.

anyway, besides all of that, i still do not think they are both serving the same God.

 

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da_blissmachine: Where can I get one of these for free?

 

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awellhungboi: http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/

If that doesn't have what you want, do a Google search for "Noncanonical works online" or "Book of Enoch" (or whichever noncanonical work you want). You might also find interesting results by doing searches for "Dag Hamadi" "Dead Sea Scrolls" "Gnostic Gospels" "Essenes" etc. Good luck!

___________

I think your friend was pulling your leg, Roystoy. Although some of the noncanonical gospels are noncanonical for a reason, and have many weird little touches, that doesn't sound like anything I remember (although, I admit, I'm hardly an expert). Traditionally Judas not Jesus is depicted as having red hair. And the whole thing about the toy duck sounds more like something from the church of the SubGenius!

But I may be wrong, and would gladly be corrected if anyone knows otherwise.

 

[Pecker]

[quote author=RoysToy link=board=meetgreet;num=1063159525;start=60#70 date=10/26/03 at 19:24:46]When I was in my early 30s, trying to learn all I could about what I believed and why, I was told one of the
14 Septuagist (apocrypha) books told that Jesus had red hair and when he was a young boy his toys became animated, unlike those of the other children.  His toy duck sprouted wings and flew away!

Do any of you whizes just happen to know which of these books give this info.?  

Thanks, Luke[/quote]

The Little Golden Book of the Aprocrypha?

 

[B_RoysToy]

Monstro:

My information came from a close friend who was attending Vanderbilt University, Nashville, getting his degree in Theology. The main reason I asked if anyone could enlighten me re. this, is b/c I've had some doubts through the years and would like knowing definately if it's true or fasle.

Thanks for the sites you give in your posting of today, 3:35 a.m. I'll click to them when time permits.

Sincerely,

Luke

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

[quote author=RoysToy link=board=meetgreet;num=1063159525;start=60#70 date=10/26/03 at 19:24:46]Septuagist (apocrypha) books told that Jesus had red hair and when he was a young boy his toys became animated, unlike those of the other children.  His toy duck sprouted wings and flew away!

Do any of you whizes just happen to know which of these books give this info.?  
[/quote]

It wasn't in the Septuagint; the Septuagint was the Greek translation of the Old Testament, so there's no reference to Jesus there. I have never heard of a reference to Jesus being red-haired; that is a tradition ... probably false ... concerning Judas Iscariot. About the Messianic Toy Story, however, the apocryphal Protevangelion of St. James relates that the child Jesus, while playing in the mud, fashioned doves out of clay. He then breathed on them and they flew away. The purported author of this 'lost gospel' was St. James, the brother of Jesus. This is higly unlikely. The earliest known version of the Protevangelion was a Coptic manuscript found at Nag Hammadi.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Just an additional disturbing example of why the apocryphal gospels are not considered to be inspired: in the Book of Infancy, the child Jesus was accidentally jostled by another child in passing. Incensed, Jesus caused this child's death instantly through supernatural means. When brought to trial for this act, the indignant Jesus struck the judges blind.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Oops ... I goofed! The story of Jesus and the clay birds is not from the Protevangelion, but rather from The Infancy Gospel of St. Thomas. And the birds were sparrows, not doves. And the Protevangelion and Infancy Gospel were not in the Nag Hammadi Library, but were early books in Syriac, not Coptic. I got things all mixed up! Anyway, the Suppressed Gospels and the Nag Hammadi Codices are all available in English translation online.

 

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longtimelurker: Jerkin, the thread seems to have moved on, so I'll keep this brief.

I think you are confusing influences of state and that of religion. It just so happens that a lot of the states that have issues against the west in general happen to be those that are classified as muslim states. Part of this may be due to the strong 'brotherhood' feeling that many muslims feel towards others of their faith - esp. with the Israel/Palestine situation and the Iraqi/Afghanistan invasion. I believe, however, that these feelings will be more down to the respective governments (or lack of) and the state-controlled media reporting there.

If you want to continue this in another thread, then by all means start one up on etc. etc. and I'm sure that there will be plenty of others in a better position to reply than a halfway agnostic/aethiest. I think this would be an area where Bob_Goblin for instance, would be in a far better position to make a point.