Religion

DC_DEEP

Sexy Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2005
Posts
8,714
Media
0
Likes
93
Points
183
Sexuality
No Response
Alright, I'll indulge myself. Here goes.

You silly, silly, stupid fuck (<-fun to say not heartfelt).:smile:

If you are an atheist, that IS a form of BELIEF. You believe that you have all the knowledge necessary to claim "there is no God". You practice a faith.

I personally respect an agnostic. Tend to find kinship in a THINKING person of faith and find atheists to be anathema to an actual ability to reason well. You are childish in the way you flail about trying to find someone to challenge your beliefs.

That was hostile and so I apologize in advance. But I'm just giving you what you were looking for.

Peace,
Spiker
Wow, spiker, where the hell did that come from? You are right, that was very hostile. To start with, the "hate the belief, love the believer" was a tongue-in-cheek paraphrase of the christian mantra "hate the sin, love the sinner."

Second, I don't know where you get the idea that I'm an "atheist." I have refused that label repeatedly in this forum. I have NEVER, EVER, NOT ONCE, claimed that "there is no god." I simply say I do not believe in it/her/him.

Please, get thee at once to eBay.com and see if you can find a sense of humor, cheap, slightly used, in excellent condition.
 

B_spiker067

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Posts
2,163
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
183
Wow, spiker, where the hell did that come from? You are right, that was very hostile. To start with, the "hate the belief, love the believer" was a tongue-in-cheek paraphrase of the christian mantra "hate the sin, love the sinner."

Second, I don't know where you get the idea that I'm an "atheist." I have refused that label repeatedly in this forum. I have NEVER, EVER, NOT ONCE, claimed that "there is no god." I simply say I do not believe in it/her/him.

Please, get thee at once to eBay.com and see if you can find a sense of humor, cheap, slightly used, in excellent condition.

Maybe I'll be bidding against you on eBay cause my response too was somewhat meant to be funny (even with the funny face and peace yu feign hurt. Ha,ha). But you are on like 2or3 threads complaining about believers. You even seem to revel in antagonising workmates and you came here for maybe the same thing. So I gave it too you. Do you really think I care let alone believe your related workspace experiences? No, I don't.

Also, note that I said "IF your are ....". Actually you are an atheist.
 

DC_DEEP

Sexy Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2005
Posts
8,714
Media
0
Likes
93
Points
183
Sexuality
No Response
Maybe I'll be bidding against you on eBay cause my response too was somewhat meant to be funny (even with the funny face and peace yu feign hurt. Ha,ha). But you are on like 2or3 threads complaining about believers. You even seem to revel in antagonising workmates and you came here for maybe the same thing. So I gave it too you. Do you really think I care let alone believe your related workspace experiences. No, I don't.

Also, note that I said "IF your are ....". Actually you are an atheist.
Go troll somewhere else, spikes. One of those "am I hung" threads would be a great place for you.
 

B_spiker067

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Posts
2,163
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
183
Go troll somewhere else, spikes. One of those "am I hung" threads would be a great place for you.

You consider a challenge to your system of beliefs a troll? Sorry, I guess. Later.

What do you call it when you go to work and say Happy Solstice to a Merry Christmas? :)

If I was trolling, I would rather Troll in a forum than at my place of employment.
 

DC_DEEP

Sexy Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2005
Posts
8,714
Media
0
Likes
93
Points
183
Sexuality
No Response
You consider a challenge to your system of beliefs a troll? Sorry, I guess. Later.

What do you call it when you go to work and say Happy Solstice to a Merry Christmas? :)

If I was trolling, I would rather Troll in a forum than at my place of employment.
Go troll somewhere else, spikes. One of those "am I hung" threads would be a great place for you.
 

JustAsking

Sexy Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Posts
3,217
Media
0
Likes
33
Points
268
Location
Ohio
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
...If you are an atheist, that IS a form of BELIEF. You believe that you have all the knowledge necessary to claim "there is no God". You practice a faith...

spiker,
Atheism is not necessarily a form of belief. It depends on the basis for the atheism. For a rationalist or a logical positivist, absence of evidence is a sufficient basis for supporting the nonexistence of an object.

For example, I could say to you I believe there is a tiny teacup in orbit around the planet Jupiter, that is so small no instruments can detect it.

You have a choice of either believing it or not. If you choose not to believe it, could I claim that you don't have all the knowledge necessary to claim there is no "Jupiter teacup"?. Could I say that your Ateacupism is just as much a belief as my Teacupism?

On the other hand, there are many who base their Atheism on faith and evangelize it just like any other belief. For them, your assertion is true. But it is not necessarily true for all Atheists.
 

B_spiker067

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Posts
2,163
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
183
spiker,
Atheism is not necessarily a form of belief. It depends on the basis for the atheism. For a rationalist or a logical positivist, absence of evidence is a sufficient basis for supporting the nonexistence of an object.
....

Ahh, but there it is atheists and fundamentalists(or the religious) speak of belief, I'm talking about faith. And the rationlist atheist is the one I have trouble with because they use misleading arguments. ;-)

P.S. I'm going to enjoy this I hope. You do seem like someone to learn from.
 

DC_DEEP

Sexy Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2005
Posts
8,714
Media
0
Likes
93
Points
183
Sexuality
No Response
This is just too much... JustAsking, I actually literally just finished mentioning you in another thread, and said I was going to mention you in this one, since there are related issues...

Spiker, JustAsking (even though he is a devout christian, and I am a non-believer) is one of my favorites on this forum. Although my views and beliefs differ greatly, JA and I have a great online relationship. Why? Because we treat each other with respect. We do not label each other on a whim, we do not denigrate each other's beliefs. We simply have intelligent, interesting, engaging discourse and debate and discussion. He does not evangelize at me, I do not belittle his faith. He is straight, I am gay, he is christian, I am not... but that's just fine. Right, JA? It's funny, I get accused of being such a strident atheist. In all this time, I don't recall us ever having a cross word between us... or is it just old age setting in and destroying my memory?
 

JustAsking

Sexy Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Posts
3,217
Media
0
Likes
33
Points
268
Location
Ohio
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
... In all this time, I don't recall us ever having a cross word between us... or is it just old age setting in and destroying my memory?

DC,
I can certainly vouch for the first part, but as for the decaying memory notion, you are on your own on that one. Thanks so much for the introduction though. Yes, we do have great discussions on this forum, don't we? For some reason its either religion or politics, or the terrible combination of the two. What are you spreading around about me on other threads? Whatever it is, I didn't do it.... Well, you don't have any evidence, anyway.... You won't make it stick, that's for sure... Anyway, I know a judge...
 

B_spiker067

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Posts
2,163
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
183
Second, I don't know where you get the idea that I'm an "atheist." I have refused that label repeatedly in this forum. I have NEVER, EVER, NOT ONCE, claimed that "there is no god." I simply say I do not believe in it/her/him.

Well this seems to be a matter of semantics which I don't seem to understand. Could you please explain the nuanced difference? And if it requires starting with base word definitions I would appreciate a link to the appropriate post(s) which I promise to read (reasonably).
 

B_spiker067

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Posts
2,163
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
183
This is just too much... JustAsking, I actually literally just finished mentioning you in another thread, and said I was going to mention you in this one, since there are related issues...
...

I too thank you for the intro because I started with preconceived notions about JA (FSM link) which would have made a fool of me (and rightly so).

If I hurt your feelings I'm sorry I did. But if you read the posts you might notice that a wide path was left for you not to take offense and ask for clarification or to just respond not taking offense.

My personal experience in the workplace has been that everybody says "Happy Holidays" so as not to offend. It is just something to say in a festive spirit. It sounds like your workplace harbors some unhealthy people. I can't imagine a workplace where a manager would humor such a complaint as you described on the other thread. Unless your are working for Jerry Falwell.:smile:

Again.
Peace and Love,
Spiker
 

JustAsking

Sexy Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Posts
3,217
Media
0
Likes
33
Points
268
Location
Ohio
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Ahh, but there it is atheists and fundamentalists(or the religious) speak of belief, I'm talking about faith. And the rationlist atheist is the one I have trouble with because they use misleading arguments. ;-)

P.S. I'm going to enjoy this I hope. You do seem like someone to learn from.

We all seem to learn from each other around here, spider. I agree that the rationalist argument for atheism is the most interesting. But you didn't comment on my particular rationalist argument. My point was, as a rationalist, I don't actually believe or disbelieve anything. What I do is conclude that something exists only when there is empirical evidence for it.

What you offered before that was simply "argumentum ad ignorantiam", which is the logical fallacy that a premise is true if there is no evidence that it is false.

If I read you right, you are saying God must exist because there is no evidence that he doesn't. If that is your argument, then let me ask you where you stand on the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
 

B_spiker067

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Posts
2,163
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
183
DC,
I can certainly vouch for the first part, but as for the decaying memory notion, you are on your own on that one. ...

JA,

Well we seem to be on the same sides of sorts. I'm not a 'devout Christian' but the best starting point for a descriptor for me is 'Christian'.

I love how atheist and agnostics use science as if it really an anchor that they can pivot their 'beliefs' around.

I had a friend and we were both taking this physics class (Modern Physics) we spent a few beers talking about many things. But one thing he never really got was that theories and mathematical formulas were merely constructs to help DESCRIBE apperant reality. He has a PHD in physics now.

Anyways how into science are you?

Spiker
 

JustAsking

Sexy Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Posts
3,217
Media
0
Likes
33
Points
268
Location
Ohio
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
...Anyways how into science are you?

spiker,
By training, I am an electrical engineer and physicist.

I think DC and I are saying the same thing, differently. Taking DC's tack, a rationalist can only conclude that something exists if he finds sufficient evidence for it. Lacking that, however, he can only choose to "believe" in it as an article of faith. When it comes to God, I choose to believe in it and DC doesn't. I maintain that under the definition of "rationalist", only my choice is based on faith, not DC's. In other words, DC's choice is rational, mine is not.

But now I think I know where you are headed, spiker. You are about to claim that it is the belief in rationalism that is the article of faith.
 

JustAsking

Sexy Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Posts
3,217
Media
0
Likes
33
Points
268
Location
Ohio
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Cool. I'm a mere programmer.

Have you reconciled 'evolution' with being a Christian?

Yes I have, along with almost every mainstream Protestant denomination and Roman Catholicism. By the way, I was editing my last post when you posted ahead of me. Take a look at it.

DC,
I think spiker and I just hijacked your excellent thread. I have some thoughts on the Merry Christmas thing, but my only real conclusion is that the religious harassment rap is totally bogus, but it might be hard to contest. The reason is that workplace harassment laws are written to use the emotional effect of the harassed as an indicator of harassment, rather than the intent of the harasser. So what is germain is her reaction to your comment, not your intent in making it.

The good news, however, is that can also work in reverse. You can just as easily claim that her Merry Christmas gave you offense. That alone would constitute harassment regardless of her intent in saying it.

My opinion is that your statement was provocative, but that doesn't mean it was wrong. It is my opinion that the only reasonable response to excessive Christian smugness is a pie in the face.
 

B_spiker067

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Posts
2,163
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
183
JA,

Sorry for taking so much time. I think I need to state the following in order to really get to my points and to your teacup example.

I think the Universe is 14-15B year old. I think evolution is evident. I think the reason I think there is a God is because I need there to be a God and that that God put that need into me. I don't believe it's an inherited meme (though it may be genetic).

I think literal believers in the Bible need the anthropomorphized version of God in order to understand him and that they interpret the Bible too much when it simply says what it says. I believe Jesus is the Son of God and that he died for my sins, simply because his message is sublime.

P.S. I have been going back reading your posts to better understand you. It is an impressive, mature content.
 

dreamer20

Worshipped Member
Gold
Platinum Gold
Joined
Apr 14, 2006
Posts
7,963
Media
3
Likes
19,693
Points
643
Gender
Male
I do not know of a religion that approves of public displays of sex organs...

In the ancient world the primitive man was quite happy being nude.
The creator gods/God approved of the display of our nude bodies as stated in Genesis. In the Old Testament sex was celebrated, even publicly at times despite of the efforts of an occasional prude, such as Moses, to stop the show. Both male(kadeshim) and female (kadeshoth) prostitutes were available in temples dedicated to the worship of gods or goddesses of love. The ancient world had many gods sporting erections e.g. Osiris and Baal Peor who was later renamed Yahweh by the Hebrews. The erection was nothing to be ashamed of and hidden away then. It was a glorified and revered symbol of male fertility.

As Islamic and Christian persons seized territories in this world of ours they annihilated persons associated with the worship of other gods and ancient artifacts which displayed gods or goddesses and sexual acts. Those that were not killed had to conform to the religious dogma of their new rulers and could no longer be nude. Such is the case today for a number of indigenous tribes in Indonesia whose beliefs clash with the religious intolerance of the Muslims in their societies.

I mentioned how society is more body phobic than it once was here:
1

and in bc's thread:

http://www.lpsg.org/et-cetera-et-cetera/39375-digitally-edited-tribal-documentaries.html
 

B_spiker067

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Posts
2,163
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
183
...
You have a choice of either believing it or not. If you choose not to believe it, could I claim that you don't have all the knowledge necessary to claim there is no "Jupiter teacup"?. Could I say that your Ateacupism is just as much a belief as my Teacupism?

The thing is though I have no need to believe if there is a Teacup floating around Jupiter or not. I am not compelled by that notion. But I and generations before me have felt compelled to believe in something such as God, it is inate and it is real.

The Teacup question is just a probability question where you can argue that you have a greater weight of information or an information set that well encompasses the physical manifestation of a Teacup and how likely in orbit around Jupiter it could be. On the other hand God is not a Teacup :) So it is kind of a false argument.




(I was talking to a law enforcement officer who was trained in hypnotism. I told him I didn't believe in it, so he set to showing me. He placed imaginary books in my outstretched hands and asked me to hold them there. I did. Then he added books and he suggested that the hand he added books to was feeling heavier and that I should indulge that thought. So I did. I let my hand drop in space an inch or two. He said there that is hypnotism. I asked him if he was kidding me or what and it kind of ended in a deflated opportunity where I still didn't believe hypnotism was real. Weeks if not months later it occured to me that maybe that was it, that it was real.)
 

JustAsking

Sexy Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Posts
3,217
Media
0
Likes
33
Points
268
Location
Ohio
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
JA,

Sorry for taking so much time. I think I need to state the following in order to really get to my points and to your teacup example.

I think the Universe is 14-15B year old. I think evolution is evident. I think the reason I think there is a God is because I need there to be a God and that that God put that need into me. I don't believe it's an inherited meme (though it may be genetic).

I think literal believers in the Bible need the anthropomorphized version of God in order to understand him and that they interpret the Bible too much when it simply says what it says. I believe Jesus is the Son of God and that he died for my sins, simply because his message is sublime.

P.S. I have been going back reading your posts to better understand you. It is an impressive, mature content.

Yes spiker, I do understand you better now. Like me, you acknowledge completely that your faith in God is irrational but the way to understand the world is empirically, even if you take empiricism itself as an article of faith. It is no surprise that there is no intersection between the two.

The problem with fundamentalists is that they demand their faith to be empirical. The problem with rationalists is that they don't realize that empiricism is an article of faith.

But hey, you defused this whole discussion by making all kinds of sense just when it looked like we were going to have a good debate. I was ready to do my best Richard Dawkins imitation and everything.

My favorite Dawkins routine is when he asks Christians if they believe in Zeus and Apollo. When they say no, he says "well there you are. We are both Atheists, but I just happen to be an Atheist about one more God than you are. We are not much different, you and I."