Republicans Defeat Republican Measure on Debt Ceiling

[ColoradoGuy]

So, if you haven't read the story yet, check out today's New York Times article. Yesterday, Republican leaders in the House brought up a measure to raise the debt ceiling and then defeated the measure 318 to 97. This was a staged effort to show the lack of support in the House for any debt ceiling legislation that doesn't first begin with significant budget cuts.

So, the fact that Republicans would do something like this is not news. In fact, Democrats did similar things when Ronald Reagan was President. I bring up the news story to pose a simple question:

Do you think political theater such as this wastes time (and therefore, money) or does it serve an actual purpose?

 

[D_Dick_Dock_Doe]

I believe it's a complete waste of time, and the parties know it is. Instead of staging theatrics such as this, why don't they do the hard work of actually getting TO work? I'll tell you why, at least when it comes to the debt ceiling: the Republicans know very well that the ceiling MUST be raised in order to keep the country from defaulting on our loans. To use such an important issue as a bargaining chip for continued cuts with no discussion of the revenue problem the country has is not only disingenuous, it's amoral. But, then again, this is par for the course for the Republicans. These are the same people who want to hold FEMA money hostage for tornado victims in Joplin, MO until budget cuts are made, when they know quite well FEMA money comes from its own separate budget and has no effect on the government budget in question.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

This last vote was a complete waste of time because everyone knew it had no chance of passing, and as usual there's way too many shady background politics surrounding it.

Everyone knows that the debt ceiling needs to be raised or our nation goes into default. Many GOP members are now trying to attach spending cuts to Medicare, as found in the Paul Ryan Budget Plan, to proposed debt ceiling legislation. The Ryan Plan to turn Medicare into a voucher program has been very damaging to many conservative politicians across the country, and even lead to some of the most conservative districts to vote liberal in special elections (including District 26 in New York). This has all been spurred on after the votes in the House & Senate where GOP members voted in favor of the Paul Ryan plan, and most citizens in America are not in favor of it.

The political game that is going on now is that the GOP is trying to get Democrats to vote in favor for the same Medicare plan that damaged some of their standing with citizens in this country... and they're using the debt ceiling issue (and the threat of sending the country into default) to fuel it. If Democrats don't vote for it, they'll turn around and say that they don't care about the debt ceiling and use the excuse of "excessive spending" since they won't approve of the Medicare cuts. If Democrats do vote for it in order to approve the raising of the debt ceiling, then they can turn around and say that Democrats "also support the Paul Ryan plan". Meanwhile, many GOP members are on news shows talking about the debt ceiling issue, spouting the usual rhetorical and ideological talking points about "job creation", "taxes" and "spending" to incite the usual masses who don't know or even care to figure out what is really going on. Ultimately, it's just more of the typical "politics as usual" posturing. Because even the GOP knows if the country defaults there won't be a single politician, Democrat or Republican, that will have any sense of security come election time.

As an aside, I still don't understand how we have a large group of people who have been duped into believing that something like Medicare, a program that every citizen pays into with their paycheck in exchange for health coverage when they're older, is something our government gives away for free when the people on it have already paid for it beforehand. Also with much bigger financial issues looming in our country, it gets really tiresome to watch rabid ideologues try to squeeze a few pennies out of Medicare when the real problems surround ending the wars in the Middle East as well as Banking, Wall Street, Real Estate & Energy Reform.

 

[midlifebear]

Waste of time. Put everyone in the House and Senate in jail and let's start over.

 

[deleted15807]

Waste of time. Put everyone in the House and Senate in jail and let's start over.

And we'd get the same old crap again. As long as you have stupid, ignorant, selfish voters you will get stupid, ignorant selfish politicians.

We need voting exams. You should have to pass a test to be able to vote. You have to pass one to drive and voting is far more important than driving.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

And we'd get the same old crap again. As long as you have stupid, ignorant, selfish voters you will get stupid, ignorant selfish politicians.

We need voting exams. You should have to pass a test to be able to vote. You have to pass one to drive and voting is far more important than driving.

Well we can't start passing out tests, although I can feel exactly where you're coming from. We don't want to stoop to the level of Tom Tancredo. However, I think about other countries like Brazil where it's actually required by law for people to vote. Because of this, their citizens tends to be more informed and knowledgable on political subjects that affect them. Those who don't vote are fined.

 

[ColoradoGuy]

{snip}As an aside, I still don't understand how we have a large group of people who have been duped into believing that something like Medicare, a program that every citizen pays into with their paycheck in exchange for health coverage when they're older, is something our government gives away for free when the people on it have already paid for it beforehand. Also with much bigger financial issues looming in our country, it gets really tiresome to watch rabid ideologues try to squeeze a few pennies out of Medicare when the real problems surround ending the wars in the Middle East as well as Banking, Wall Street, Real Estate & Energy Reform.{snip}

I agree with your post, but we're all familiar with the sobering facts about Medicare:

• for every $1 that gets paid into the system, the average recipient takes out $3.
• approximately 27% of benefits are paid out in the recipient's final year of life.

There is a great discussion in the Wikipedia that distills the Urban Institute's study of contributions and benefits if anyone would like to read up more on that. Both sides in the debate cite them, so I don't think they're questioned.

One of my great disappointments in the discussion of Medicare is that everyone (or seemingly, everyone) is allowing the Republican advocates of the Ryan Plan to quote those facts as justification for the Ryan Plan instead of challenging them to debate whether or not systemic issues in health care delivery are responsible for both of them. It will take a generation to effectively "fix" the health care crisis in the US, but it is fixable IF the focus shifts to promoting health, not on cutting programs for the unhealthy.

 

[slurper_la]

...We need voting exams...

No; we need clean elections free of corporate funding and campaigning based on lies designed to scare the ignorant voter into voting against their best interest.

Come to think of it. What we need even more is proper funding of education in this country so children learn the true meaning of civics and their responsibility in society.

 

[ColoradoGuy]

No; we need clean elections free of corporate funding and campaigning based on lies designed to scare the ignorant voter into voting against their best interest.

Come to think of it. What we need even more is proper funding of education in this country so children learn the true meaning of civics and their responsibility in society.

Nicely said, slurper_la.

:smile: :yes(1):

 

[B_Marius567]

people feel entitled to money from the government.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

people feel entitled to money from the government.

When working people invest their money into government programs (such as Medicare & Social Security) that are supposed to be there when they retire, of course they would feel entitled to it. That's the whole point. Some people work decades and have money taken out of their paychecks to put into these programs. Are you suggesting that they're not supposed to be expecting something in return?

No sense of using the word "entitlement" as a politically dividing buzzword unless you know what it actually means. That is, unless, you've never paid taxes on any paycheck you ever earned in this country.

 

[ColoradoGuy]

When working people invest their money into government programs (such as Medicare & Social Security) that are supposed to be there when they retire, of course they would feel entitled to it. That's the whole point. Some people work decades and have money taken out of their paychecks to put into these programs. Are you suggesting that they're not supposed to be expecting something in return?

No sense of using the word "entitlement" as a politically dividing buzzword unless you know what it actually means. That is, unless, you've never paid taxes on any paycheck you ever earned in this country.

Just musing on your post and I think you're absolutely right, VinylBoy. The word 'entitlement' got corrupted along with 'liberal' (and probably several other words) years ago and they've taken on sinister, underhanded meanings in the lexicon of big business, conservative think tanks, and right-leaning politicos.

 

[B_RedDude]

Awesome post, slurper. Totally on point.

No; we need clean elections free of corporate funding and campaigning based on lies designed to scare the ignorant voter into voting against their best interest.

Come to think of it. What we need even more is proper funding of education in this country so children learn the true meaning of civics and their responsibility in society.

 

[Mensch1351]

Well we can't start passing out tests, although I can feel exactly where you're coming from. We don't want to stoop to the level of Tom Tancredo. However, I think about other countries like Brazil where it's actually required by law for people to vote. Because of this, their citizens tends to be more informed and knowledgable on political subjects that affect them.



Those who don't vote are fined.

Of course they all have picture ID's to curb voter fraud right????:biggrin1:

 

[Mensch1351]

No; we need clean elections free of corporate funding and campaigning based on lies designed to scare the ignorant voter into voting against their best interest.

Come to think of it. What we need even more is proper funding of education in this country so children learn the true meaning of civics and their responsibility in society.

........and logic! I fully believe this nation will never come out of the mirey pits of ignorance until logic is taught to every child from grade 6 through high school! THAT would be the end of Rush Limbaugh!

 

[D_Ben Twilly]

........and logic! I fully believe this nation will never come out of the mirey pits of ignorance until logic is taught to every child from grade 6 through high school! THAT would be the end of Rush Limbaugh!

And the notion that it makes sense to raise a debt ceiling without making significant budget cuts. The possibility of raising the debt ceiling without curbing spending is bone-chilling. Where will it lead? An unlimited threshold for incurring debt with no effort to get the budget within our means, that's where. I've never tried that with my checkbook, but I can't picture it working out well.

One thing that WAS taught in high school when I was there was that when you're indebted, the logical course of action is to pay as much off as quickly as possible while spending as little as possible in order to avoid adding to the principal. That was in accounting, economics, and home ec. I guess not many of our political leaders went to my high school.

As to the original question, are theatrics like this a waste of time? Yes. But even if it was only a staged bluff done only to prove a point that was self-evident anyway, at least something got done in the Senate. Can't say that every week.

And as long as we're making a list of buzzwords that have been corrupted and abused so much that everyone has forgotten what they mean and whether or not they're even true in context, don't forget "ignorant." These days you could have a Ph.D. on the topic at hand and still be declared Ignorant if your opinion didn't match the left's agenda.

 

[slurper_la]

the left's agenda? wait, aren't we talking about the republican right? after all they are the ones who spent us into oblivion with no regard for revenue to pay the bills

 

[B_VinylBoy]

And the notion that it makes sense to raise a debt ceiling without making significant budget cuts. The possibility of raising the debt ceiling without curbing spending is bone-chilling. Where will it lead? An unlimited threshold for incurring debt with no effort to get the budget within our means, that's where. I've never tried that with my checkbook, but I can't picture it working out well.

OK fine. You want to make budget cuts. But why Medicare and not the obvious places where our nation needs the most work? You know... Military, Energy, Real Estate, Banking & Wall Street Reform.

One thing that WAS taught in high school when I was there was that when you're indebted, the logical course of action is to pay as much off as quickly as possible while spending as little as possible in order to avoid adding to the principal. That was in accounting, economics, and home ec. I guess not many of our political leaders went to my high school.

Sometimes, one needs to actually spend money to make money. I'm sure if you attended accounting & economic courses in school you must've heard of that. No sense in cutting spending so much that you lack the ability to also generate revenue. That's the problem we're experiencing now in this country. So many people are just talking about cuts at the major expense of necessary infrastructure. That's like trying to preserve enough money to pay your rent by shutting off your electricity.

These days you could have a Ph.D. on the topic at hand and still be declared Ignorant if your opinion didn't match the left's agenda.

Because ultimately, even someone with a PH.D can be wrong sometimes. That piece of paper doesn't automatically validate everything that comes out of their mouth nor does it make everything they say factual. That's what happens when we put too much value into symbolisms and not enough into substance, and that's even before one's political ideology comes into play.

 

[cocktaste]

people feel entitled to money from the government.

Yep. Corporations.

 

[ColoradoGuy]

{snip}
And as long as we're making a list of buzzwords that have been corrupted and abused so much that everyone has forgotten what they mean and whether or not they're even true in context, don't forget "ignorant." These days you could have a Ph.D. on the topic at hand and still be declared Ignorant if your opinion didn't match the left's agenda.{snip}

Vance, I think you missed the point of my Thread. But thanks for your 'ignorant' statement.