Responsibility 101.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by B_starinvestor, Sep 25, 2008.

  1. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

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    this is a novel thought. You borrow money from somebody, some entity, and actually try to pay it back.

    Observe these threads and see how the borrower is vindicated in every circumstance. Poor guy was force-fed a loan he couldn't pay back. Poor guy.

    The paperwork was so confusing.

    If you are an adult, and can't figure out what your mortgage payment is from 60 pages of loan documents - ahhh, you got problems.

    Well, GWB and Secretary Paulson, Ben Bernacke, Dick Cheney, John McCain and Sarah Palin should have been available to review your budget with you. Those soms-a-bitches.

    those ultra-wealthy Wall Street gazillionaires shoulda taken care of that. Why should I pay them rich dudes back? Hell, they knew I couldn't afford that payment.

    You're damn right they should have known that. Because you aren't responsible for your own payments!! How silly.

    The days of personal responsibility are gone. Its so evident on this board.
     
  2. B_New End

    B_New End New Member

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    agreed... and?

    How about his... don't loan out money you don't have.

    I don't get to loan out $30 for every dollar I have.. do you?
     
  3. D_Davy_Downspout

    D_Davy_Downspout Account Disabled

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    Starinvestor is attacking strawmen again. You've having an argument with yourself and trying to make a point. How about highlight actual arguments people have made? Anyways:

    1) I agree that people were stupid and optimistic in many instances. I personally don't think that they are absolved of wrongdoing, and their ruined credit will reflect that.

    2) Many of these mortgages were never meant to be taken to maturity, they were expecting to be able to sell when the payment ramped up, and buy a better house with the profits, because they assumed the market would go up. Lenders sold loans using that as their pitch.

    3) The current bank crisis we're in is due to banks, who already knew that these loans were bullshit and risky, buying and selling highly risky debt as safe investments.

    4) The customers are at fault for taking stupid loans, the banks are at fault for predatory lending, and the bank executives and investment banks are at fault for pretending like they didn't know these were incredibly risky loans and bad debt. The government is at fault for keeping interest rates so low for so long that money was easy to get, and for steadily repealing regulation and oversight that would have prevented this.

    5) In short, everyone is at fault, top to bottom.
     
  4. b.c.

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    ...right. In this instance the responsibility is a two way street. That (and other quite logical reasons) is why you don't talk of bailing out one (lenders and CEOs) without relief for the other (borrowers).

    Frankly, in principle, my position on this would be "fuck em". Let the lenders fail, all of them - would teach 'em a lesson. I said as much in another thread when the news first broke. Curiously, a whole lotta Republican lawmakers are up in arms and are saying the same thing. (Imagine that - Republicans and me - having the same position on something. Will wonders never cease).

    But something deep inside my craw is telling me this isn't another George Bush styled "they've got weapons of mass destruction" kind of bullshit snow job.

    These rich people are scared SHITLESS. You can see it in their eyes.

    Now that shouldn't matter worth a damn to a guy like me. But seems I remember a little something about my Great Depression lessons...just enough to figure that when rich people are scared shitless, maybe we all oughta be.
     
    #4 b.c., Sep 25, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2008
  5. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

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    No, but I'm not in the loan business. But, that's the only reason banks are in business.

    So you are dismissing personal responsibility?
     
  6. transformer_99

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    Yeah, when the ubber wealthy were raking in the money back over the past few years they weren't crying about it that day. Now that the cash cow has dried up and they aren't getting paid for deals that weren't going to work they want a $ 700 billion bailout ? Bankruptcy is harder on the wealthy, they'll miss what they had, the good old days. A poor guy he just moves on and tries to make the best of what little he has, it's the same struggle he'll face yet again. But a wealthy guy, watch "Trading Places" movie with Dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy from the 80's. Amazing parallels with the movie. It's humbling, but sometimes it has to happen, now is as good a time to start for some of these people ?
     
  7. lucky8

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    he said agreed....
     
  8. Notaguru2

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    I think something else attributed to this as well. Many of these loans were at best marginally qualified. The problem with the ARM is that if for some reason you do not maintain your credit, when the ARM adjusts, your rate goes up regardless of what the prime rate is.

    I think many of these folks were paying their loans just fine, but the average American can't roll with a $400/month adjustment to their mortgage; at least thats what I'm thinking - I could be wrong.

    So, marginally credit worthy loans were made. Incomes were not verified as part of the application. Then, many of those mortgage companies SOLD the mortgages as credit-worthy just a few months after they were made to larger banks.

    Another thing that triggered the mortgage crisis was climbing unemployment. I know professionals with Masters Degrees who have been unemployed for months. How can you pay your mortgage with no income? Does this mean these people are not credit worthy? Of course not. It means this administration's refusal to change the definition of "recession" hurt many industries and corporate budgets collapsed.

    It's just not as simple as poor-trash getting loans they never should have had. If you think that, then you give new meaning to the term "elitest".
     
  9. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

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    This is your favorite line - attacking strawmen. Once you get out of detention hall, take a look at a few threads Sinwin. Everyone attacks Wall Street for the credit crisis.


    Thanks for your endorsement, sinwin.

    And borrowers borrowed. They ramped up credit card debt and bought more house than they could afford; and you and your friends blame everyone but yourselves.

    Again, if you and your friends can't figure out your mortgage payment, don't blame it one somebody else. You sign an agreement - promising to pay - and you don't, and its my fault.

    You demonstrate your ignorance again. The Fed sets the prime rate and the discount rate - credit cards and home equity lines of credit are pinned to both. But mortgage rates are tied to Treasury Notes - which is set by the market; not the government.

    In short, you and your friends blame Wall Street. But, yes, several are to blame.
     
  10. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

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    The point of this thread isn't to dismiss loose credit qualifications. I don't deny that; and when some of these credit opportunities became available, I was stunned.

    However, some people lose jobs, get divorced, become disabled. I'm not here to condemn those people. I'm simply asking -- at what point did it become acceptable to betray your word and abondon your responsibilities -- and simultaneously attack and besmudgeon those who extended you credit?
     
  11. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

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    Transformer - who do you think that 'poor guy' gets his paycheck from? How do you think he buys his house - by paying cash? Let's not condemn those that make the 'poor guy' feed his family.
     
  12. B_New End

    B_New End New Member

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    So you are saying you want to suck your shit off my cock?
     
  13. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

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    As I've mentioned in other posts...if the greedy fuckers that extend you credit are so evil; why not go somewhere else to get your loans and credit? If this country is built on back-door deals and fraudulent loans - send a loan app to Canada or Great Britain because their nationalized healthcare surplus is so overwhelmingly profitable that it can bear a low interest loan to you - only after a very invasive underwriting process, of course.
     
  14. B_New End

    B_New End New Member

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    Lets not play dumb. You were trying to deflect blame to the borrowers. FYI, I have never owned or used a credit card in my life. I don't do credit. I know about responsibility.

    It is very unfair that banks get to loan money 10 times what they have in equity, and its downright stupid to allow investment bans to loan out $30 to the dollar.

    I think the dollar would hold a lot more value, if you could only loan out what you could back up... not this big clusterfuck of borrowing money from Peter that borrowed it from Paul who borrowed it from Judas, calling it "cash" and loaning out 10 times the amount, simply because you have connections, and the people you are loaning to do not.
     
  15. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

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    New End, you do have some funny analogies:smile:. All I'm saying [still laughing] is that some of these borrowers should take some responsibility [still laughing].

    ok, i'm going to bed.
     
  16. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Let's make a deal.
    We won't get on your case about people and their own personal responsibilities when it comes to taking out loans if all the loan business take the blame for not using basic levels of common sense when issuing them. Why go after people who couldn't pay for the loans to begin with? Why target them at all?
     
  17. B_New End

    B_New End New Member

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    unfortunately, I've read about 100 articles today,a s opposed to my usual 10 - 20, and I cant remember where I red it, but there was a very good one, where two former mortgage lenders exposed the level of irresponsibility.

    Taking high risks is irresponsible... its gambling.

    While I am bragging, I don't gamble anymore either. (I did when I was younger, but even then it was only an odd scratch ticket here and there)
     
  18. B_New End

    B_New End New Member

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    heh... I should have put Judas as the final borrower, then the analogy would be complete.
     
  19. D_Davy_Downspout

    D_Davy_Downspout Account Disabled

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    Ah but that's not what you said. You said that people are saying that the borrowers are not at fault. I'm not seeing this anywhere. If it's so common, link me one.

    Do you think that people just blindly went in and said "you know what, I can't afford this payment, but fuck it, I'll just start printing money in my garage". Of course not.

    I go into a bank:

    Me: "I'd like to get a loan for a house, but I'm not sure what I can afford"
    You: "Well we have this swell ARM and you can put no money down, and make small payments for years"
    Me: "But what happens when rates go up?"
    You: "Well you'll be making more money then, so you can refinance at a fixed rate and keep going, or sell the house for a profit and it will be worth more then."
    Me: "Sounds good."

    So the bank here is not at fault at all, even though it was selling loans to people who it knew currently could not afford loan, on the hope or gamble that they would be able to in the future? I'm not saying the buyer wasn't gambling or stupid here, but you're saying the bank has no responsiblity?

    Apparently your idea of personal responsibility doesn't apply if you get a job at a bank.

    My ignorance? I wasn't just talking about the mortgages. Banks are able to maintain liquidity easier when the interest rates are low, and thus more likely to take risks, and give out money in the form of sub-prime lending. You also have an amazing ability to respond to one thing and ignore everything else in the paragraph.

    Can you not read? I said everyone is at fault here.

    Could you give me a quick run down how the purchasing of high-risk securitized mortgages did NOT contribute to the current crisis?
     
  20. transformer_99

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    Condemn them ? I simply just want them to play by the same rules the rest of us do.
     
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