Richard Wagner

slivovic

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Wagner was an anti-semite, no question. For those who obsessively exhume the past, including knocking down statues and expunging history, advocacy of such a reprehensible individual is surely hypocrisy of the first water. (I won't need to even discuss what he did to poor old Hand von Bulow, but its worth noting that he tried to force the first conductor of Parsifal (from whom the character Klingsor features, an apparently anti-semitic caricature, like Meistersingers Beckmesser) Hermann Levi, to renounce Judaism). He openly advocated in a pamphlet he published anonymously for a form of genocide against Jews.

He says:
"the involuntary repellence possessed for us by the nature and personality of the Jews, so as to vindicate that instinctive dislike which we plainly recognise as stronger and more overpowering than our conscious zeal to rid ourselves thereof."

That they should:

"Without once looking back, take ye your part in this regenerative work of deliverance through self-annulment; then are we one and un-dissevered! But bethink ye, that only one thing can redeem you from your curse; the redemption of Ahasuerus — Going under!"


Both are interpreted as Jewish stereotypes
 

Industrialsize

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Wagner was an anti-semite, no question. For those who obsessively exhume the past, including knocking down statues and expunging history, advocacy of such a reprehensible individual is surely hypocrisy of the first water. (I won't need to even discuss what he did to poor old Hand von Bulow, but its worth noting that he tried to force the first conductor of Parsifal (from whom the character Klingsor features, an apparently anti-semitic caricature, like Meistersingers Beckmesser) Hermann Levi, to renounce Judaism). He openly advocated in a pamphlet he published anonymously for a form of genocide against Jews.
You've apparently never seen the Opera Parsifal.........
 

slivovic

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You've apparently never seen the Opera Parsifal.........
I have. Have you? Anyway the evil characters in Wagner are all manipulators of others. In this case Klingsor uses Kundry as a tool of sexual corruption. Alberich manipulates his workers in what amounts to slavery. Mime uses the 'strong German hero' in order to exploit him to gain the ring. His 'kindness' is a front for his greed, he intends to dispose of Siegfried. He is deliberately intended to be shrill and whiny. Kundry literally 'goes under' in order to 'redeem' herself. Hunding was of 'mixed parentage', have Nibelung and half 'Germanic'.
Wagner was the most symbolic of 19th century composers. He knew the inferences he was sending and what stereotypes he was peddling. Beckmesser is a caricature of Hanslick, who represented the Mendelssohnian tradition (both Hanslick and Mendelssohn were Jews). The banality of his themes is probably also a dig at Meyerbeer (guess the ethnicity of Hanslick, Mendelssohn and Meyerbeer. Nearly all the subjects of Wagner's splenetic hatred were Jewish).
 

slivovic

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Such beautiful music ruined by terrible messages contained within. Just like church/religious music.
I don't really see the terrible messages in church music. Unless you are referring to the Dies Irae.

I thought this thread would be about how big his cock was.

He liked to get it out as much as possible, generally with the wives of his chief benefactors, like Hans von Bulow (he eloped with Bulow's wife, Cosima) and Otto Wesendonck (he tried to get it off with his wife, Mathilde, and set some songs to her verses).
I'm not trying to claim that Wagner's music should be verboten, despite all its resonances. But we need to be consistent, right?
 
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slivovic

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I'll say this much for him as a human being: he's stone-cold fucking dead.
So are all those whose statues have been defaced by the uber righteous but hypocritical left. There haven't been any protests outside of Bayreuth recently, of which I'm aware. I'm not in favour of cancelling history, or art. The art can be enjoyed on its merits. I just wonder why there is so much selectivity in attack targets from the usual suspects.
 

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I thought this thread would be about how big his cock was.

"How'd it go last night?"
"It was awesome. She was a sex maniac. She rode me like a...like a....freaking--"
"Valkyrie?"
"Yes! Dude! She rode like a frickin' Valkyrie!"