ron paul

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To what source are you referring? You never cited nor provided one, hence my remarks earlier. Also, you never previously posted any "lifetime" record of 61% (and you didn't source the one you just did post)...you put up various percentages for the current Congress and the previous two, which weren't in line with the reality of their voting records for those periods.

The source and the lifetime record were both included at the top of my original post in this thread. Do you so salivate at the thought of finding fault with me that it impairs your ability to read?

Regarding the "relevance" of the 1200+ vote figure you've cited; the vast majority of those votes are ceremonial. Naming of post offices, recognition of schools, etc. Only a tiny percentage of those 1200 votes actually reflect a member's position on an issue.
 

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I watched it. He didn't say God was the creator, nor did he say he believed in Creationism. He did say he did not knwo why the creator made us or the universe, and he thinks it's a silly question to ask a politician. He also said nobody knows how we got here.

And I agree.

I dont believe the Bible story one bit, but I don't think evolution is rock solid either, nor do I buy into the big bang as truth, just because 4 or 5 mathemeticians say it is.

Not that it matters, all of the candidates believe in a big white guy in the sky.


re: civil liberties
Ron Paul got knocked for not voting for hate crimes. He doesn't vote for hate crimes. He thinks murder is murder. And I agree. Hate crimes are hardly a civil rights issue in my book. There are plenty of crimes, like tresspass and vandalism to address a burning cross. Nobody should have special protection under the law. The ideal is equal.

I don't know where else the ACLU docked Paul on Civil liberties, but since Clinton voted twice for the USA PATRIOT act, and a whole bunch of other nonsense after 9-11, and even voted to confirm "waterboarding is not torture" Mukasey, calling her better at civil liberties than Paul is a fucking joke.

Also Paul proposed an amendment to ban burning the flag, which the ACLU probably marked him down for. He then promptly thrashed his own amendment, and voted against it, calling it completely un-American. He did this, to counter a movement in the congress to just make it illegal, bypassing the amendment process.

Paul also voted against the Amber Alert bill, he must hate children and love paedophiles! But NO! Attached to the bill was a rider called the RAVE act, which basically turned the constitution to toilet paper, and would make club owners responsible criminally for overdoses and all other kind of draconian fascist shit, like nto allowing them to sell water, or have chill rooms, becaus ethat promoted the use of ecstacy. I wonder if the ACLU took that corageous vote into consideration... (after all, who would vote against the Amber alert system?)

Biden and Clinton were SPONSORS of the fucking thing. along with fascists like Lieberman, Orrin hatch and Strom thurmond.
 

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One of the best ways to see what Ron Paul is all about, and why his supporters like him so much, is to have a look at some of the many YouTube videos which contain excerpts from his speeches, writings, and the like. Much better to let the man speak for himself than to rely on the opinions or ratings of others.

There's a nice list of them to be found here:

RON PAUL for President 2008

(Yeah, it's ironic, finding Republican stuff on a website originally set up to promote Senator Obama.)

The Paul campaign has raised more than $18 million in Q4 2007, with an average donation size of under $100. Clearly, a great deal of grass roots support exists for his positions.

-DC
 

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The source and the lifetime record were both included at the top of my original post in this thread. Do you so salivate at the thought of finding fault with me that it impairs your ability to read?

Regarding the "relevance" of the 1200+ vote figure you've cited; the vast majority of those votes are ceremonial. Naming of post offices, recognition of schools, etc. Only a tiny percentage of those 1200 votes actually reflect a member's position on an issue.

It has nothing to do with you, as I thought I made clear in my last post. I would have investigated the data in the same manner regardless of its author. I was honestly unclear as to the presentation of your first post, as you can tell from my initial response to it. I realize now that all of your data was coming from various parts of the ACLU's scorecard site.

My critique of their analysis remains, however. They have chosen 15-20 votes from each session to score each politician's record. As someone with libertarian leanings myself, I don't entirely agree with their selections...some are included which I consider irrelevant in federal politics, whilst others I view as pivotal weren't included.

While I'll readily concede that a majority of votes called in Congress are "ceremonial," these are done by voice, not by roll call. As such, the individual votes of each congressman aren't recorded. That only happens for roll call votes, which are generally only used for matters of some consequence. Even if 80% of these roll call votes are nonsensical, that still leaves around 240 meaningful ones each session. For the ACLU to rate members on 15-20 of these means they're disregarding at least 90% of the issues. By any account, their analysis as presented is still statistically insignificant.

Any voter who truly cares about civil libertarian issues could do better than the ACLU for their barometer on the candidates' positions.
 

gcbenji0

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hold on now the patriot act doesn't allow for bush's phone tapping. that's something he's doing illegally. two seperate things. i'm not so sure the patriot act is all that bad.

paul is a democrat running as a republican because he knows he could never get the nod against hillary, edwards and that other new superpower, obama.
 

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hold on now the patriot act doesn't allow for bush's phone tapping. that's something he's doing illegally. two seperate things. i'm not so sure the patriot act is all that bad.

The patriot act allows for secret search and siezures, amongst other things, and warrantless search and siezures, called "national security letters", that do nto need a judges approval... and can require librarians to give information on who has checked out what. there are many other little cuts at the fourth amenedment attacked by the USA PATRIOT Act. Whether it is good or bad, it definitely has eroded civil liberties.

paul is a democrat running as a republican because he knows he could never get the nod against hillary, edwards and that other new superpower, obama.

Paul is a libertarian, that has been elected as a republican for 20 years. He is nowhere near a democrat. He is more a right wing libertarian, than a left wing one.
 

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I watched it. He didn't say God was the creator, nor did he say he believed in Creationism.

So? Evolution is a fact. One doesn't have to believe in creationism to be wrong about Evolution and whether or not they 'buy it'.


He did say he did not knwo why the creator made us or the universe, and he thinks it's a silly question to ask a politician. He also said nobody knows how we got here.


Evolution doesn't address how life got started, only what happened to it once it did so his point is irrelevant.


And I agree.
I dont believe the Bible story one bit, but I don't think evolution is rock solid either, nor do I buy into the big bang as truth, just because 4 or 5 mathemeticians say it is.


Educate yourself on evolution. It's solid.
Here start with this:
The Theory of Evolution Made Easy
YouTube - 7 -- The Theory of Evolution Made Easy



Not that it matters, all of the candidates believe in a big white guy in the sky.

It matters to me. We've already experienced Presidents who live in delusion land. I don't care for a repeat.
 

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Educate yourself on evolution. It's solid.
Here start with this:
The Theory of Evolution Made Easy
YouTube - 7 -- The Theory of Evolution Made Easy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w57_P9DZJ4

I know plenty about evolution, thank you.

How would not accepting evolution as fact affect someone's foreign policy, or economic policy?

Answer the question, please.


It matters to me. We've already experienced Presidents who live in delusion land. I don't care for a repeat.

All candidates, with the exception of Kucinich, are Christian.
 

Equus14

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[/url]

I know plenty about evolution, thank you.

How would not accepting evolution as fact affect someone's foreign policy, or economic policy?

Answer the question, please.


All candidates, with the exception of Kucinich, are Christian.



If you know 'plenty' about evolution and still don't accept it, and this same answer applies to Ron Paul by the way, then that's not saying much for your ability to reason while supposedly making an informed decision. Evolution is fact whether you believe it or not. I do not want a President who denies reality in that manner. Having a disability of that nature could very easily affect their decisions dealing with economics or foreign policy.

Kucinich is Catholic. Catholicism is a sect of Christianity. He is Christian.

Personally I would only totally approve of an atheist president but the majority of human beings are weak minded, fearful, and delusional with their religious/spiritual beliefs that an admitted atheist could never become President today. So I end up having to vote the lesser of 2 evils. That in itself is a terrible feeling and makes one feel as though none of the candidates are really trustworthy and none of them represent me as a voter.
 

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If you know 'plenty' about evolution and still don't accept it, and this same answer applies to Ron Paul by the way, then that's not saying much for your ability to reason while supposedly making an informed decision. Evolution is fact whether you believe it or not.

1. Its a theory.
2. It doesn't matte when it comes to politics. A man can believe evolution is false, adn still be a great leader.
3. If you accept evolution at face value, and do not keep an open mind to the idea it may be wrong, you have a closed mind.

I know alot about evolution, and it certainly seems plausible, from a scientific standpoint. But science spends a great deal of time classifying and defining thing. A bat is a bird or a mammal? Science says mammal, child says bird.... both are right.

You don't know if modern man is the result of millions of years of survival of the fittest. There are always new theories all the time, including neanderthals and homo sapiens lived side by side for a couple of thousand years, and that sapiens actually went to war with neanderthal.

Like the big bang, evolution goes back along ways, but its very first premise is unprovable.

big bang, everything makes sense... except for the millisecond before it happened

Likewise, evolution, everything makes sense, except the first creation of life.

You probably do not believe in a soul, or otherworldy planes. I don't base my life around these beliefs, but I am not arrogant enough to say I am positive there is not another plane, of which I am not aware, and that my mind may actually be inhabited by something that exists on a different plane.

If a computer ever became self aware, do you think it would be able to fathom the world of cars, trees, and sex? Do you think it would be arrogant enough to believe, after hoking up with other computers, that their transfers of information across cyberspace were the final plane, and nothing existed beyond them?

Peopel can be rational, and still haev beliefs, or still question that which is truly unknowable. We cannot know how the unverse started, because we have no idea the true properties of time... if we did, we could manipulate. we still don't even really understand what causes gravity. If gravitons were discovered tomorrw, and cause daction at a distance, then would you say every physicist that thought otherwise to be mad, and unfit to lead?

You are trying to equate something very small, whther someone beleives in a "creator" or not, to whther someone would make a great president.

Almost all founders were deists. Not all were Christian, but all of them, I think, believed in some sort of higher power.

Would the Dalai Lama be a terrible president?
 

Equus14

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1. Its a theory.

The fact that you end the statement here as a singular point proves you do not know or understand evolution or science itself. Evolution is BOTH a Fact AND a Theory. That is not mutually exclusive terminology. As if Evolution can't be a fact because its called The 'Theory' of Evolution. There is also a Theory of Gravity and a Theory of Plate Tectonics and who in their right mind would deny that gravity isn't a fact of nature or that continental drift doesn't occur? It is a fact that Evolution is occurring, but HOW it is occurring, or the mechanism by which it occurs, is the crux of the Theory of Evolution; that crux being Natural Selection.

2. It doesn't matte when it comes to politics. A man can believe evolution is false, adn still be a great leader.

It may not matter to YOU but it does matter. If this were the turn of the 20th century I would agree with you. But not to accept Evolution in 2008 is to live in ignorance and deny reality.


3. If you accept evolution at face value, and do not keep an open mind to the idea it may be wrong, you have a closed mind.


And if you deny evolution knowing what little you apparently know about it while believing you know more than you do you're not being open minded, you're uneducated.


I know alot about evolution, and it certainly seems plausible, from a scientific standpoint. But science spends a great deal of time classifying and defining thing. A bat is a bird or a mammal? Science says mammal, child says bird.... both are right.

The child would be mistaken. A bat is not a bird, and if you think that the child would be right then you're just as mistaken.


You don't know if modern man is the result of millions of years of survival of the fittest. There are always new theories all the time, including neanderthals and homo sapiens lived side by side for a couple of thousand years, and that sapiens actually went to war with neanderthal.

The sad part about this is that you think that just because there are differing ideas about those things that this somehow makes evolution less likely. Again, you are more and more proving to me that you do not understand science or evolution.


Like the big bang, evolution goes back along ways, but its very first premise is unprovable.

Evolution doesn't have a 'first premise'. This again shows how mistaken you are about what evolution is and what it is not. Evolution has nothing whatsoever do say about the origins of life itself. Evolution is only about what happened to life once it became life and the theory does not hinge upon how life became life in of itself.


big bang, everything makes sense... except for the millisecond before it happened

Makes sense to me. What is it that you don't understand? All the matter and energy that currently exists in the universe ALWAYS existed in some form. It was probably some kind of singularity. A mechanism which we do not have enough data on to draw a solid conclusion caused that singularity to begin to expand rapidly. I see no problem with that. So there are blanks left to be filled. I can live with it. I certainly don't have a need to fill any blanks with some god as many people do.


Likewise, evolution, everything makes sense, except the first creation of life.

Evolution doesn't attempt to explain how life became life so now that you know that are you saying you DO believe in Evolution? Have you ever studied the different ideas about modern abiogenesis origins of life?


You probably do not believe in a soul, or otherworldy planes. I don't base my life around these beliefs, but I am not arrogant enough to say I am positive there is not another plane, of which I am not aware, and that my mind may actually be inhabited by something that exists on a different plane.

All the evidence says that our minds are created by our brain. That is its function. There is a TON of evidence to support that. We actually know more about the brain and the mind than many people believe we do. I have no use for a soul and I can't imagine why anyone else needs one either.


If a computer ever became self aware, do you think it would be able to fathom the world of cars, trees, and sex? Do you think it would be arrogant enough to believe, after hoking up with other computers, that their transfers of information across cyberspace were the final plane, and nothing existed beyond them?

We aren't talking about computers. We're talking about people.


Peopel can be rational, and still haev beliefs, or still question that which is truly unknowable. We cannot know how the unverse started, because we have no idea the true properties of time... if we did, we could manipulate.


It's true that people can be rational and still have beliefs but that does not automatically make their beliefs rational.
Actually we do know the properties of time. Time as we experience it is an illusion. It's not an entity unto itself. It's only an interval of the movement of space which is why scientists refer to it as space/time. They are inextricably linked.

We still don't even really understand what causes gravity. If gravitons were discovered tomorrw, and cause daction at a distance, then would you say every physicist that thought otherwise to be mad, and unfit to lead?

Now you are confusing the theory with the phenomena. Never do that. The theory is HOW something is happening not a question of the factuality of the phenomena. There is a difference in what you are suggesting and what I said. If your statement above applied to Ron Paul for example it would be like suggesting that he doesn't believe in Natural Selection but still believed in Evolution. I could appreciate that. But to use your example above Ron Paul not believing in evolution is like Ron Paul not believing in gravity. Both gravity and evolution are facts but HOW they are happening is what the theory attempts to explain.



You are trying to equate something very small, whether someone beleives in a "creator" or not, to whther someone would make a great president.

That didn't use to be a problem. It is today.


Almost all founders were deists. Not all were Christian, but all of them, I think, believed in some sort of higher power.

That's true they did, and they also were the architects of the separation of church and state. They had no problem keeping them separate. That seems to be a great difficulty to many candidates today.


Would the Dalai Lama be a terrible president?


I don't know enough about him to say.
 

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B_New End

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The fact that you end the statement here as a singular point proves you do not know or understand evolution or science itself. Evolution is BOTH a Fact AND a Theory.

There has not been enough time to show that mutation occurs.
BTW, I am an atheist/agnostic.

It may not matter to YOU but it does matter. If this were the turn of the 20th century I would agree with you. But not to accept Evolution in 2008 is to live in ignorance and deny reality.

Substanceless paragraph.

And if you deny evolution knowing what little you apparently know about it while believing you know more than you do you're not being open minded, you're uneducated.

I know alot abotu evolution. I used ot be a hardcore atheist crusader.... like yourself. Believe me, I know plenty.

The child would be mistaken. A bat is not a bird, and if you think that the child would be right then you're just as mistaken.

Its just a system of classification. If scientists had decided first and formeost, birds flew, a bat would be a bird, instead, they chose that first and foremost, mammals have to ween with milk, so it's a mammal.


The sad part about this is that you think that just because there are differing ideas about those things that this somehow makes evolution less likely. Again, you are more and more proving to me that you do not understand science or evolution.

I got A's in my college physics, astronomy, psychology, sociology... lots of other stuff to. Actually, I hear Christians can get A's in these fields, even biology... hmm....


Evolution doesn't have a 'first premise'. This again shows how mistaken you are about what evolution is and what it is not. Evolution has nothing whatsoever do say about the origins of life itself. Evolution is only about what happened to life once it became life and the theory does not hinge upon how life became life in of itself.

Did you know there was a model, that perfectly could predict the positon of the planets and moon... but rotated everything around the earth?

It was probably some kind of singularity.

science?

Evolution doesn't attempt to explain how life became life so now that you know that are you saying you DO believe in Evolution? Have you ever studied the different ideas about modern abiogenesis origins of life?

I have read a couple. Space spores and electrified primordial ooze. There si lots of evidence for evolution, but that doesn't mean that is how it happened. It could be survival of the fittest.... it could be deliberate DNA reprogramming. It is hard to find fossils that are in between states of species.

All the evidence says that our minds are created by our brain. That is its function. There is a TON of evidence to support that. We actually know more about the brain and the mind than many people believe we do. I have no use for a soul and I can't imagine why anyone else needs one either.

I am merely one biological computer linking with another, both of us quite sure there is no world beyond what we know. Equus14 has solved the ancient mystery of the ghost in the shell.

We aren't talking about computers. We're talking about people.

see above



It's true that people can be rational and still have beliefs but that does not automatically make their beliefs rational.

OK. So Ron Paul can be rational, and still have a belief, an irrational belief. How does that affect the way he has voted?
He believes in a creator, so he should have voted irrationally;
*he voted against the Iraq war
*he voted against the USA PATRIOT Act
*he has never voted to raise taxes
*he has never voted for an unbalanced budget
*He voted against the Military commissions Act, the Rave act, and repeatedly has brought bills to the floor of the house that would end the drug war

Are any of these positions irrational? Were any of these spurned on by his belief in a creator?


Actually we do know the properties of time. Time as we experience it is an illusion.

Time is not a part of reality?

Both gravity and evolution are facts but HOW they are happening is what the theory attempts to explain.

They are still theories. The Sun and planets around the earth model worked perfectly fine... but it was wrong.

That's true they did, and they also were the architects of the separation of church and state. They had no problem keeping them separate. That seems to be a great difficulty to many candidates today.

Ron Paul talks like a Christian about many things, but if you look at his record, he votes very much in line with the constitution. He voted against giving Rosa Parks a medal, because the constitution does not say you can spend money to give medals and rewards. (He also voted against giving his good friend Ronald Reagan a medal). If you listen to the man, and look at his record, you will see, he follows the constitution. the worst that could happen under him, for almost any issue, would be the power would be returned to the states, since he beleives the interstate commerce clause has been abused.

I don't know enough about him to say.

Do you know anything abotu buddhism? They believe some mystical things, liek reincarnation. Do you think a Buddhist would be a terrible president?
 

Bbucko

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rights ain't wrong.

as to gay stance (now come-on, that was funny - an accident, but funny)
RON PAUL HAS NOT DECLINED AN INVITE TO SPEAK AT
ASPEN GAY SKI WEEK - Google Search
WITH THE TACIT APPROVAL OF OUR NEW BRIT SUPER-CHIEF BRIT COP
Aspen Times News for Aspen Colorado - News

shout out to Bbucko & cybeczar
thinkin' BIG can be thinkin' smart

Not declining is not the same as accepting. But embracing a "special interest" would go against his political grain.

Thanks for the shout out, but I'm unclear as to what "thinkin' BIG" might be.
 

HazelGod

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*he voted against the Iraq war
*he voted against the USA PATRIOT Act
*he has never voted to raise taxes
*he has never voted for an unbalanced budget
*He voted against the Military commissions Act, the Rave act, and repeatedly has brought bills to the floor of the house that would end the drug war

Are any of these positions irrational? Were any of these spurned on by his belief in a creator?

QFT. Thanks, New End.
 

Equus14

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*he voted against the Iraq war
*he voted against the USA PATRIOT Act
*he has never voted to raise taxes
*he has never voted for an unbalanced budget
*He voted against the Military commissions Act, the Rave act, and repeatedly has brought bills to the floor of the house that would end the drug war



If what you say here is true then our entire conversation will be moot. The Republican party will view him as 'too liberal' and he will not become their poster boy. If those people and corporations whom have the Republican party already firmly in pocket think they will no longer be getting perks and preferential treatment by having Ron Paul as President they will prevent it from happening. Do not trust them.
 

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If what you say here is true then our entire conversation will be moot. The Republican party will view him as 'too liberal' and he will not become their poster boy. If those people and corporations whom have the Republican party already firmly in pocket think they will no longer be getting perks and preferential treatment by having Ron Paul as President they will prevent it from happening. Do not trust them.

Ron Paul republicans are taking over the party. It's easy. The GOP has no more activists, and no more people to show up for caucus.

watch this:

YouTube - Ron Paul Rising

Whats more, teh grassroot smovement is huge, and the Paul campaign doesn't have to pay a cent for it, just like they did not have to pay one dime to promote the grassroots fueld $4.3 Million dollar day in Novemeber, and the $6.2 Million in December.

So far, 100,000 people have donated to the Ron Paul campaign. The GOP can either push him into running independant, and losing all agendas to the Democrats, or let him take the helm at the GOP, and gain most agendas, except torture and war.

You would think the hardcore Bush lovers of 2004 would no way be for Ron Paul, but more and more of them are coming around every day. (one of them (also an Iraq veteran) made a very powerful, over 1 million viewed video on Youtube... "aravoth"). You can only lie to somebody so much before they wake up.

On the liberal side, too many people are seeing through the illusion of power the Democrats portray. They buckle under pressure all the time. They were elected to get us out of the war, and we are not one step closer a year later.
 

arkfarmbear

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Big Duder. You look like a hunky rugby player in your photo. Please add some more photos, including some of your LP, to your profile page. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to see more of you.
 

B_New End

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Big Duder. You look like a hunky rugby player in your photo. Please add some more photos, including some of your LP, to your profile page. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to see more of you.

The picture is of Brett Favre, quarterback for the Green Bay Packers