Rupert Murdoch / News International's UK News of the World

rbkwp

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is Lachlan still the cool looking dude ..
wheres the Celeb F thread ...



That's a provocative post.


sorry J
OK, i will take his money and run then ..
 
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Jason

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given that money is no object, jason, yes, appeals would not be a surprise.

I rather hope there will be.

It's been a learning curve, but I think all public figures should now assume that any conversation they have by phone or any message may be hacked. Right now I doubt newspapers are doing it from London (as the risks are now too high) but they all have overseas offices and will be doing the hacking from there. So what is it we are saying? Hack from the UK and risk prison; hack from Spain and everything is fine? We can no more stop hacking than we can clear porn off the internet.

Coulson has got caught. There were hundreds (thousands?) of newspaper phone hackers and there still are. What do we think we're achieving sending him to prison?
 

Jason

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... that must mean the PM is fair game for me to bug too.

Certainly!

Indeed we now know Angela was bugged.

I wonder who is trying to hack Cameron. Obama? The newspapers? Juncker? Labour? His wife? Right now there's debate about what he is going to say on Monday. Will it be a damp squib or a firework? I doubt he will talk about this on the phone.

(Of course Cameron needs something to get the media off the Coulson story. If he's 50/50 about making a big announcement on Monday this nudges him towards the big statement.
 

dandelion

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Coulson has got caught. There were hundreds (thousands?) of newspaper phone hackers and there still are. What do we think we're achieving sending him to prison?
i dont know. but the same logic applies to thieves, speeding drivers and murderers. Why dont we stop bothering to enforce any laws?
 

Jason

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i dont know. but the same logic applies to thieves, speeding drivers and murderers. Why dont we stop bothering to enforce any laws?

The distinction is between criminal offences and civil wrongs. Theft and murder are examples of the former. Most driving offences are examples of the latter. Criminal offences generally have prison as a possible sentence; civil wrings generally do not. Speeding will not send you to prison; killing someone while speeding might.

Hacking is being treated in the UK as a criminal offence. It didn't used to be criminal and in most nations around the world it is not. My personal view is that we have a bad law that should be abolished. Hacking should be regarded as a civil wrong. It presumably comes under the area of "nuisance" and should be treated as such.

I think we have a case of a bad law. It is of course hard to see how politicians can change it. The judge will have guidelines for sentencing, and these are publicly available. I don't have the energy to search. He will have to keep in mind the cost of prison which in the case of Coulson will include the cost of the whole security apparatus he will need. A two year sentence is likely to be in reality around a year. A normal prisoner will cost about £50,000 - it's easy to double this for Coulson. My personal view is that the correct sentence would be a long period of community service.
 

dandelion

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I picked up an old paper today. The news was bobby sands hunger strike, thatcher's fight against 9% inflation and there was an item mentioning the record high prison population of 44,000. Today its 85,000. Since crime is actually supposed to have reduced in the intervening time, what does that mean? Do we catch more criminals or send them to jail more? Why do we feel the need to do this? I suspect hacking voicemail was not an offence back then, if only because it hadnt been invented.

I dont necessarily think hacking mail should be an offence. If you dont want something heard, dont say it. Its funny how there are hordes of journalists right now saying how terrible hacking is, and they cant imagine how anyone would intrude on someone's privacy like that. They all seem to be saying hacking should be illegal. Odd.
 

Jason

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I dont necessarily think hacking mail should be an offence. If you dont want something heard, dont say it. Its funny how there are hordes of journalists right now saying how terrible hacking is, and they cant imagine how anyone would intrude on someone's privacy like that. They all seem to be saying hacking should be illegal. Odd.

I rather agree with you. Or rather I think it is a civil offence (a tort) not a criminal offence.

It's a risky practice. For example the Milly Dowler hacking included deleting messages (in order to hear other messages in a system that was full) and as such was destroying evidence. This is criminal.

A lot of the hacking in the Coulson era was hacking which involved no more than entering the phone's default pin - the number they were all sold with. Journalists regarded such mailboxes as open. What they were doing is wrong, but then so is swearing. Or parking on a double yellow line. Or doing 71mph on the motorway. I really can't get worked up about it. Coulson should get the sort of punishment he would get for a motoring offence. Maybe the reality is he should get community service. Maybe spend a few months teaching delinquent youths how to write. Do something useful in other words.

And I think this logic should be extended to many more in our courts. We are criminalising a lot of people who should have a telling off and nothing more. Watched a case in a magistrates court of a 20 year old who had got a job. His benefits ended but job paid at end of month, and he was very hard up in the meantime. He had to commute to work. He fare dodged -and got caught. Magistrates struggled to believe his stated monthly salary was monthly not weekly it was so low. He got a fine (!) but more to the point he lost his job. Crazy. We need to get real with our sentencing. We need far shorter and far fewer prison sentences, and a realisation that most people commit crimes because of poverty. What they do is wrong, but we have to get real as a nation and stop pandering to the flog them and birch them brigade.
 

dandelion

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For example the Milly Dowler hacking included deleting messages (in order to hear other messages in a system that was full) and as such was destroying evidence. This is criminal.
Didnt attend the trial so no idea what evidence was presented, but i seem to remember from past discussion that the excitement was because messages had been deleted - thought to be by milly - not because messages were lost. I thought I heard that no messages had been lost.

A lot of the hacking in the Coulson era was hacking which involved no more than entering the phone's default pin - the number they were all sold with.
I agree, this is very stupid, and I recall saying so before. cant now recall who was disagreeing?

Coulson should get the sort of punishment he would get for a motoring offence. Maybe the reality is he should get community service. Maybe spend a few months teaching delinquent youths how to write. Do something useful in other words.
I think the problem is that the government seeks to control the supply of information. thus its ok for them to tap, but not ordinary people. I think both or neither.

And I think this logic should be extended to many more in our courts. We are criminalising a lot of people who should have a telling off and nothing more.
Wouldnt vote conservative, then.

We need far shorter and far fewer prison sentences, and a realisation that most people commit crimes because of poverty. What they do is wrong, but we have to get real as a nation and stop pandering to the flog them and birch them brigade.
phew... that just blew the conservatives entire policy on benefits scroungers.

*****
And I htink another news item quite ironical. Cameron may have been able to use his influence as a member of the EU to head off stronger regulation of british banks in Europe, but apparently the US authorities are starting to get serious about the activities of British banks. More fines to come, paid to the US regulators.
 

Jason

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I think as a nation we need some joined up thinking.

Our tabloids are full of the fruits of journalism which is intrusive. We accept telescopic lenses. We accept journalists blagging their way into people's homes and offices. We accept bought stories. In effect we all have to accept some level of culpability for what journalists do if we buy tabloid papers. But one particular journalistic practice - phone hacking - has suddenly been elevated to the status of a great crime.

Rolf Harris was also sentenced today, and for less than 6 months per sexual assault on a child. Coulson has got three times this. It seems hard to justify.