San francisco shows how to resist

[86Rick]

Klingsor, yes, of course citizens have to pay taxes. We share roads, schools, police, fire, etc.

As a citizen, don't you want to be able to keep more of what you earn? Or do you believe you're obligated to give it to government to spend as they see fit?

 

[Klingsor]

You completely left out any possible suggestion of a fourth story. That of a person who rose himself from his status through hard work and determination. Not the "it's your own fuckin' fault," but that of the American story of opportunity.

Against all odds, some people do rise to success out of the most impoverished, disadvantaged circumstances. It's always an inspiring story.

Nonetheless, isn't it our responsibility, as a society, to try to reduce the number of people who have to face those impoverished circumstances in the first place?

 

[86Rick]

1109, we've become an entitlement society. You're owed everything and it's someone else's responsibility to give it to you.

 

[Klingsor]

Klingsor, yes, of course citizens have to pay taxes. We share roads, schools, police, fire, etc.

As a citizen, don't you want to be able to keep more of what you earn? Or do you believe you're obligated to give it to government to spend as they see fit?

Do you see the disconnect between your first and second paragraphs?

 

[86Rick]

Nonetheless, isn't it our responsibility, as a society, to try to reduce the number of people who have to face those impoverished circumstances in the first place?

We can do that better by encouraging a climate where business can be successful. The more you tax and regulate, the more you reduce the incentive to invest and to work. There needs to be a careful balance.

 

[Chrysippus]

Did I say it was?

Did I write in my reply that you did?

 

[86Rick]

Do you see the disconnect between your first and second paragraphs?

Nope. Please enlighten me.

 

[86Rick]

Did I write in my reply that you did?

Nope. You just seem perpetually angry.

 

[Chrysippus]

You completely left out any possible suggestion of a fourth story. That of a person who rose himself from his status through hard work and determination. Not the "it's your own fuckin' fault," but that of the American story of opportunity.

When I was in college, I had a classmate who was born in Puerto Rico, and had moved to NY at a very young age. His father was a truck driver, and my friend was the first one in his family to go to college. I cannot tell you how hard he worked in class. He had always excelled in school, and told me of his first experience in lower grades. His parents were encouraged to enroll him in an ESL (English as second language) program of classes. Instead, his parents insisted he be mainstreamed immediately. He believed their decision helped him in the long run.

We lost touch following graduation, but I would be shocked if this guy is not in some senior position in business today, or even politics. Rather than use your words of "get it now?" I will just point out that this opportunity is what many here, on this site, fail to grasp.

1.) I didn't realize that someone raising himself from hard work and determination is 'the American story of opportunity'. I am thinking it's happened long before America came to be.
2.) I answered the question the poster asked me.

You jumped too soon.

 

[Klingsor]

Nope. Please enlighten me.

You acknowledge that citizens have to pay taxes to support a variety of government services. But then you rail against that very obligation, and dismiss government spending as capricious.

If you want the services, you have to pay for them, one way or another. Trail and error has demonstrated that many of those services are provided most efficiently and economically through government.

 

[Klingsor]

We can do that better by encouraging a climate where business can be successful. The more you tax and regulate, the more you reduce the incentive to invest and to work. There needs to be a careful balance.

I accept the idea of a careful balance (though we probably wouldn't put it at the same point). I would add that if you DON'T tax and regulate, you end up with a barely functioning and highly dangerous society.

 

[86Rick]

You acknowledge that citizens have to pay taxes to support a variety of government services. But then you rail against that very obligation, and dismiss government spending as capricious..

Not at all. I simply meant to convey that we should make sure that the money is being used responsibly and fairly. Do you approve of paying for this?

 

[86Rick]

I accept the idea of a careful balance (though we probably wouldn't put it at the same point). I would add that if you DON'T tax and regulate, you end up with a barely functioning and highly dangerous society.

We have to tax and regulate but we need to understand the consequences of doing so. I have the impression that there are many bureaucrats, academics and ideologues that believe they can tax and regulate out the wazoo and that it will all be wonderful for society when, at times, it HURTS the people.

 

[Klingsor]

Not at all. I simply meant to convey that we should make sure that the money is being used responsibly and fairly.

To that, I would agree.

Do you approve of paying for this?

I don't know what "this" is. Looks nice, though. If YOU wanted to pay for that for ME, I wouldn't say no.

 

[86Rick]

To that, I would agree.



I don't know what "this" is. Looks nice, though. If YOU wanted to pay for that for ME, I wouldn't say no.

Ha ha. I'd love to! But the government took the money I was going to use to pay for it.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...tub-at-m-hotel-during-pre-conference-meeting/

 

[Klingsor]

We have to tax and regulate but we need to understand the consequences of doing so. I have the impression that there are many bureaucrats, academics and ideologues that believe they can tax and regulate out the wazoo and that it will all be wonderful for society when, at times, it HURTS the people.

Again, I don't disagree with you in principle. But again, we're likely to disagree on the benefits or detriments of specific taxes or regulations.

 

[86Rick]

Again, I don't disagree with you in principle. But again, we're likely to disagree on the benefits or detriments of specific taxes or regulations.

I agree with you that one can't make general, sweeping statements. We have to look at the specifics.

On another note, I just want to commend and thank you for a quality discussion.

 

[Klingsor]

Ha ha. I'd love to! But the government took the money I was going to use to pay for it.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...tub-at-m-hotel-during-pre-conference-meeting/

It appears there's an investigation under way, so the government itself is looking into possible abuses.

That said, I don't expect government officials attending conferences to stay at fleabag motels. There are going to be some overhead expenses, as with any organization. That's just the reality.

 

[Klingsor]

I agree with you that one can't make general, sweeping statements. We have to look at the specifics.

On another note, I just want to commend and thank you for a quality discussion.

You're welcome, and the same to you. Since I have to get up very early tomorrow, right now I'm off to bed. 'Night!

 

[86Rick]

It appears there's an investigation under way, so the government itself is looking into possible abuses.

That said, I don't expect government officials attending conferences to stay at fleabag motels. There are going to be some overhead expenses, as with any organization. That's just the reality.

Nobody is suggesting they stay at a flea bag motel.

My old boss (RIP) had a good saying...keep honest people honest. There needs to be checks and balances to make sure that otherwise honest people remain that way and don't abuse the people's money. The high-ranking government official in the story above was abusing the people's money.

There was an article not long ago that said 6 of the top 10 richest counties in America were those surrounding Washington D.C. What does that tell you? If you want to help the common American, let him keep more of his own money and make it possible for the American's employer to thrive and grow. THAT is the best way to help the poor and middle-class Americans.