Saying goodbye to manhood...

[javyn]

Why Young Men Delay Adulthood to Stay in "Guyland" | Newsweek Culture | Newsweek.com

Very interesting article, and not suprising in the least, at least to me it isn't. More and more young men are seeing just how powerless we really are when it comes to monogamous relationships and marriage, and are doing everything possible to avoid it; seeing it as little more than a trap.

Just curious as to the womens' opinions on this. I'm 30, and kind can of see it in my generation, but it seems to be well engrained in the majority of 20-somethings now.

Is (was) male redundancy something that could have been avoided with the rise of the womens' rights movement?

Do women have any right to even complain that men are like this now? Or is it a reap what you sow type deal.

A bad attitude about marriage is not the only thing that's holding these guys back. A series of social and economic reversals are making it harder than ever to climb the ladder of adulthood. Since 1971, annual salaries for males 25 to 34 with full-time jobs have plummeted almost 20 percent, according to the Center for Labor Market Studies at Northeastern University. At the same time, women have crashed just about all the old male haunts, and are showing some signs of outpacing their husbands and boyfriends as breadwinners and heads of family, at least in urban centers. Last year, researchers at Queens College in New York determined that women between 21 and 30 in at least five major cities, including Dallas, Chicago and New York, have not only made up the wage gap since 1970—they now earn upwards of 15 percent more than their male counterparts. As a result, many men feel redundant.

 

[deleted213967]

Are you saying love and commitment are just about money?

Yes, women are no longer hapless economic slaves to men. That's good.

Still, in the US at least, and on average, their pay is only 75% of that of men. When comparing men and women in the same job role, the ratio increases to 90%.

Saying that women don't need men because they can make their own money now completely cheapens the notion of commitment and marriage.

I am hardly an expert in women but I daresay that not all women only seek out economic benefits in men.

Men and women each possess a wide range of gender-specific attributes that make them appealing to the other gender (well, in most cases...).

This will never change.

 

[marleyisalegend]

Very interesting. An article that wastes our time explaining why some guys are immature. Here's a solution, smack 'em and tell 'em to grow the hell up. Who cares about the reason why?

 

[Maia]

I think we addressed this just recently in the "are women still a limiting resource" thread. You may find some answers there. Essentially I think the issue is bollocks and men are just now beginning to see that having nothing to offer gets you nothing in return most frequently, as women have known since the advent of civilization. Women who don't have beautiful faces, great bodies, or uncommon wealth have been nearly irrelevant to men, and now that some men are choosing not to be providers in an age where women can provide almost as well as a man... these men are choosing to be socially irrelevant.

 

[CALAMBO]

i may catch hell here...but having a 29 yr old son...that lets say is financially worthless...i know most of his friends are same way...we as parents have made it too easy on this generation...i blame myself and especially his mother who just wanted him have his own way...my gen got off thier ass and went to work/school and became good citizens...millions of america's young men would rather just get by than make it in the world...women cannot and should not depend on thier boyfriends to support them...good going gals...i suggest you to by a BOB....(battery opperated boyfriend), leave the loosers behind

 

[marleyisalegend]

^AMEN. The only people who will be offended by your post is the guys sittin' in their mama's basement playing Nintendo Wii, waiting for their dad to hook them up with a job.

 

[B_New End]

i may catch hell here...but having a 29 yr old son...that lets say is financially worthless...i know most of his friends are same way...we as parents have made it too easy on this generation...i blame myself and especially his mother who just wanted him have his own way...my gen got off thier ass and went to work/school and became good citizens...millions of america's young men would rather just get by than make it in the world...women cannot and should not depend on thier boyfriends to support them...good going gals...i suggest you to by a BOB....(battery opperated boyfriend), leave the loosers behind

bUllshit.

My stepdad has an IQ of 85, and didn't graduate high school until he was 23. He went straight to a shipyard job, and makes 60,000 a year.

Find me any 20 something today that could do the same, anywhere.

Jobs suck now. Unions have been made obsolete, and the global economy has weakened worker demand. 66% of the jobs in America are service industry.. do you want fries with that? paper or plastic? That's the reality of the situation. Tons of degrees are squandered on menial jobs. This generation of males is displaced and dispossessed. I know, because I was there. I worked hard, and finally got a break, at age 31.

I know, most people from your generation did not have to work nearly as hard, or be the self starter that I was, to get where you are at. It is the baby-boom generation that got everything handed to them on a silver platter. You graduate highschool, you go get a 9-5 job that you could buy a house, new car, raise two kids on, and retire with.

This is not even possible for an 18 year old today. Forget it. Today's 18 year old can expect to have 15 different jobs by age 60.

 

[marleyisalegend]

^You knocked that shit outta the park. I was talkin' about that the other day, the fact that Master's degrees and PhDs serve as little more than wall decor because you'll still be working alongside college dropouts. There are people with two Master's degrees working jobs that don't even give health or benefits, so they have to make up for that ON TOP of paying back student loans and trying to make day to day ends meet.

I agree 100% that there are guys out there doing nothing, earning nothing, being nothing. HOWEVER, there are plenty of well-educated, hard-working people who can't get a job making more than $8, $9 an hour. There are two sides to this story.

 

[javyn]

That's kind of my whole point. I'm 30, which I consider very young, but every single man I deal with in his early 20s is just like how that article states.

Completely ignorant, incapable of taking care of themselves. It's pathetic.

I'm not saying the reason women get married is money, but that is the reason they get married in most mens' minds these days, so they are refusing to settle down, seeing marriage as nothing more than a 'trap' to avoid.

When you have a judicial system that always sees the woman's side no matter what, that doesn't help with that image either. I work in law, and can tell you with certainty women get a pass for doing the same things as men who would never.

It doesn't matter how good a father you are, if you get divorced, there is a 90% chance you will lose custody to the mother, even if she is an unemployed crackhead. Also, men who murder get put to death by in large, women who murder are excused because the Courts do not believe women are capable of cold blooded crimes, so they are sent to mental institutions.

People notice these things, and I think this new, sorry generation of men is a result.

I'm not bashing women here. Actually, from a selfish perspective, to me it's good news. Improves my chances since I'm not a complete fool like those a few years younger than me. Speaking of which, one of these younger guys applied for a job at my friend's place. Just out of college, no experience, never worked a day in his life, and he honestly believed that he was entitled to 50 dollars an hour starting out.

This generation is completely clueless.

 

[marleyisalegend]

^Ours isn't the only clueless one. There are LOTS of ways previous generations have screwed us over. It's more ebb and flow than it is "smart" vs. "dumb" generations.

 

[javyn]

Yet again, you misread marley. The article was not about 'some guys' but the 20-something generation of men as a whole. This isn't a few bad apples, this is the norm now.

Very interesting. An article that wastes our time explaining why some guys are immature. Here's a solution, smack 'em and tell 'em to grow the hell up. Who cares about the reason why?

Sorry, I should have stated in my OP that I wanted real discussion only. Not politically correct feel-goodery bullshit.

Are you saying love and commitment are just about money?

Um, no.

Yes, women are no longer hapless economic slaves to men. That's good.

Thanks for stating the obvious.

Still, in the

US at least, and on average, their pay is only 75% of that of men. When comparing men and women in the same job role, the ratio increases to 90%.

That is changing quickly. The enrollment rates of women in colleges surpassed men in the early 90s.

Saying that women don't need men because they can make their own money now completely cheapens the notion of commitment and marriage.

I've never heard anyone say that except women, "just drop that loser and get a BOB".

I am hardly an expert in women but I daresay that not all women only seek out economic benefits in men.

Again, stating the obvious.

Men and women each possess a wide range of gender-specific attributes that make them appealing to the other gender (well, in most cases...).

This will never change.

It's changing now, men are becoming worthless and obsolete.

 

[marleyisalegend]

Yet again, you misread marley. The article was not about 'some guys' but the 20-something generation of men as a whole. This isn't a few bad apples, this is the norm now.

I'm sorry, I forgot about your uncanny ability to extrapolate mountains of information from one article. So ONE ARTICLE gives you a scope of an entire generation? Really? I didn't know it was that easy. I thought you'd have to do some kind of research or something. Nope. Let one article do it for you.

Sorry, I should have stated in my OP that I wanted real discussion only. Not politically correct feel-goodery bullshit.

Real discussion? HA! What do you want us to say? Agree that all 20 year olds are bums? Surely you'll accept no less.

Of course attitudes have changed, but so has the situation. 40 years ago you could walk into an office with no experience and get the job. Hate to tell it to you, but other generations have fucked up too. How about that baby boom that's put more mouths on the planet than they can feed? What affects did that have? Sorry, I just don't live in your simple little world. If you REALLY want this discussion we can give it to you, but i guarantee you won't like it. It'll be full of facts and historical context, all that "politically correct" crap you hate.

 

[javyn]

Facts? LOL like stats being an invalid science? Yes, that article gave me enough info to form an opinion. I also forgot that since you don't believe in statistics, math, or science, you would need to poll every single person in America to believe anything. I supposed you are unfamiliar with the term "trend" huh. As usual Marley, you are a complete fool. I've seen the responses to your other posts I'm not the only one who knows so.

Yes, PLEASE educate me with your discussion. I need a good laugh.

 

[marleyisalegend]

Facts? LOL like stats being an invalid science? Yes, that article gave me enough info to form an opinion.

I'd dare you to form one without an article to tell you how to feel but.....baby steps.

I also forgot that since you don't believe in statistics, math, or science, you would need to poll every single person in America to believe anything.

Huh? I believe in all those things. I don't believe in taking one equation and using it to draw a conclusion. For an expert to tackle something like this, they'd look at several statistics, several trends, cultural shifts, job market, etc... Sorry, it's like you're a two year old trying to fix a real car with a Fisher Price hammer. It's cute, but you actually need real tools.

Yes, PLEASE educate me with your discussion. I need a good laugh.

You don't laugh at the truth, you argue with it. The only reality you'll accept is yours so....Yes Jav, this generation is a bunch of lazy idiots who know nothing about work. You happy now? Want your sippy cup? Huh? Da javjav want da sippy sippy? Ah-hoosha-moo-sha-moo-sha-moo-sha. Who'sh da good Jav? You are! Yeah, you!

 

[rbkwp]

UNDERSTAND and AGREE with you 110% Calambo

No Truer words

Think Society has Fckd up this current Generation with all there PC Crap etc etc
Regards
enz

 

[marleyisalegend]

Some questoins Jav.

1. LOTS of my young friends are going to school AND working 1, 2, and 3 jobs on the side. What percentage do they make of this generation?

2. How many jobs are available to young people? How many entry-level jobs are going to people that are 40, 50, 60 years old?

3. How many jobs have been shipped overseas in the last 2 years?

4. How available is financial aid to young people who can't afford school?

5. How many young people have to get jobs right out of high-school so they can help their ailing family members? How many young people stay at home to help take care of loved ones instead of pursuing a 7-figure career?

6. How many CEO's increase their bonuses by cutting staff hours, forcing young people to work 2 and 3 jobs?

7. How many people under the age of 30 work multiple jobs simultaneously?

8. In 1940, how many jobs were available to people under 20 vs. how many are available now?

Just some questions I feel are relevant to your thread.

 

[rbkwp]

Sorry fr not acknowledging your post Javyn/OP
I was in too much of a rush to agree with Calambo
Have not read the article..yet'
I wont comment any further on this thread but i do agree totally with yr sentiments as well

In NZ/Au there is a BIG drive to get the Young back into Apprenticeships for jobs such as Plumbers/Carpenters etc
About time too..Get tsome of the younger folk to do some real work
It was the DumbAss Govt of a while back that actually Stopped such happening..BIG MISTAKE'
and whats happening now..people in those jobs are often earning more and securing jobs far more easily than Educated Uni Grads
enz

 

[whatireallywant]

Some questoins Jav.

1. LOTS of my young friends are going to school AND working 1, 2, and 3 jobs on the side. What percentage do they make of this generation?

2. How many jobs are available to young people? How many entry-level jobs are going to people that are 40, 50, 60 years old?

3. How many jobs have been shipped overseas in the last 2 years?

4. How available is financial aid to young people who can't afford school?

5. How many young people have to get jobs right out of high-school so they can help their ailing family members? How many young people stay at home to help take care of loved ones instead of pursuing a 7-figure career?

6. How many CEO's increase their bonuses by cutting staff hours, forcing young people to work 2 and 3 jobs?

7. How many people under the age of 30 work multiple jobs simultaneously?

8. In 1940, how many jobs were available to people under 20 vs. how many are available now?

Just some questions I feel are relevant to your thread.

Yep, and it isn't just young people, and it isn't just men.

I used to be gainfully employed, but was not given the chance to obtain the skills I'd need for a future job, then was laid off. Now I work temp jobs and am on unemployment the rest of the time. I WANT to work, just can't find anything! And I have a college degree (two, in fact). One of my friends is in the exact same boat, and another doesn't have a college degree but is in a similar situation too. We ALL want to work, but have trouble finding jobs that pay enough to pay the bills, and those of us with degrees run into being told that we're "overqualified" for the jobs we do have the skills for. Those that require degrees also require a higher level of skill, like in my field (IT), I see a lot of job listings for the LEAD programmer, but not for the junior-level programmers at all. Not to mention all the jobs in my field that have been outsourced to India.

I also agree that reducing marriage to money really does it a disservice. While people do need to be able to make enough money to pay the bills, the whole idea of "women are gold-diggers, and men are just out for a woman with a pretty face and a great body" does us all a disservice. While there ARE people like that, and also with the genders reversed (men who are after women with money, and women who are after men for their looks), I don't think that is a good way to live, either way. Sure, money and looks are nice to have, but it shouldn't be the ONLY criteria for a relationship.

 

[Jovial]

I think I fell into this category, but not exactly. I wasn't into all the partying and stuff. But I didn't want all the responsibilities of a family and wife in my 20's. Heck, I could barely take care of myself. Not sure why that is harder now than in the past.

Also, with marriages falling apart, not guy looks forward to a terrible, sexless marriage.

And I see women still wanting to be with these guys, hoping they will grow up. Or the women think they just need to learn how to cope with them. They're told they have to let the guys have their guy time and let them go out and drink, etc.

I'm not sure what the solution is. Maybe if parents had great loving lives together, the boys would see this and aspire to wanting the same thing.

 

[Qua]

I'm there right now. And formerly so fucking disenfranchised that I didn't even care to correct it. Now I realize that I need to pay through my nose and my ass simultaneously to get a $40k+ a year Ivy League degree AND grad school to hope to make it somewhere by the time I'm 40. And no fin. aid for me...my parents make more, so I'll be saddled with the full debt load...financial aid is income redistribution at its most disgusting..my school just announced a massive new aid program. Tuition was hiked several grand to pay for it. I'm paying an extra $6k+ a year so more kids can pay less. The financial aid system is brutal to those on the other side. The article talks of $20k debt...mine will be over $100k. And this is STILL WORTH IT in today's ultra competitive corporate world. If nothing else...it's a stimulus to force me to grow up.

But of late I've become more disgusted with the Peter Pans of the world than the effort it takes to leave Neverland. Being single blows. And other disenfranchised guys are shitty companions.