School can expel lesbian students, court rules

[MisterMark]

Thanks to all of you for helping to explain this to me. I was just having a conversation with mindseye about this very topic the other night. I was wondering how it was illegal for a gay bar to ban straight people, but not illegal for a gay sex club to ban straight people. It sounds like the answer is that because the bar is open to the public, they can't ban heteros, but because the gay sex club is not open to the public, they can pick and choose whoever they want.

The LPSG is so educational. :smile:

 

[B_cigarbabe]

This is disgusting, children are there to be educated, not to be discriminated against by the very people they are meant to look up to. They'll get more than their fair share of discrimination from the other pupils, not to mention adults in every day life as they grow older.

I just don't understand how any group of people can on the one hand teach tolerance and forgiveness, while on the other, discriminating and casting out those of whom are most in need of understanding and support.

Right but these "adults and rolemodels" continually claim that they're "Christians". That is what is truly pathetic and sad.
cigarbabe:saevil:

 

[Principessa]

*SNIP* A private school would seek payment for the student's academic year in advance of term, so therefore by expelling the students would they not be in breach of contract (to educate them)? And we all know contracts are are used in business dealing.

I see your point and I want to say you are correct, but lets face it they are playing dirty pool.

I am a liberal Democrat and I part the ways completely with my brethren (and sisters!) on this one.

If you are a private institution, you have NO OBLIGATION to accept ANYONE for ANY REASON.

That was my understanding of this situation as well. Frankly, I don't get why everyone is so shocked at it's occurrence.

That means, yes it does, that if you are the Boy Scouts and you don't want gays, you don't have to take them. If you are a church and you don't want to marry gays, you don't have to do so. If you are a private school, you do NOT have to comply with non-discrimination laws. Yes, that includes race too. (Of course, this also means that I, as a private citizen, do not have to support you in any way; I do not have to give you my money, my respect, my time and effort, or in any other way help you. It's why I never give the Salvation Army a damn dime---when they decide to come off their stance about gays, fine; until then, they can ring that bell till their arms fall off before I give them anything).

Now, if you're an institution that is PUBLIC or DOING BUSINESS WITH THE PUBLIC, then no, you may absolutely not discriminate.

I thought this was common knowledge.

That's one reason I think there ought to be a distinction between civil marraige and religious ceremonies. If you want to have some religious ceremony, fine, but marraige should be a civil situation and should be identical for gays and straights alike. That way, the CHURCH ceremony can be whatever that private church wants to do.

The government needs to stay OUT of private institutions. Let them do what they want.

Using the exact same logic, the private institutions need to stay OUT of government! That means, churches, sit down and shut up. You can't dictate to the society what the society will do with regard to marraige, abortion, or any other social issue. It is not your place. You may take your church and go sit in your corner and do as you please. If you choose to have multiple wives, have no gays, have no blacks, have no people who have brown eyes, or whatever, that is YOUR business---but don't try to foist your will off on the rest of us, either. Mormons, that means you just sit down and shut up. Baptists, sit down and shut up. Church of Christ, sit down and shut up.

Don't hold back dear, tell us how you really feel. :smile:

If this Lutheran school wants to expel lesbians, the lesbians involved should ask themselves this question: why on earth would you WANT to go to this institution??? Leave them alone with their stupid prejudices and find another institution that is more welcoming, and give them your money.

Yup. :yup:

Where I live, there are still private schools that are set up basically to keep your precious white children from having to go to school with black children. It's not illegal.

It's expensive ... but it's not illegal. When I first got to town, this guy told me point blank that he wasn't crazy about spending all that money to get his kids taught, but he wasn't gonna force them to interact with n-----s.

Yeah, my mom noticed that as well. Many were set up right around the time segregation came into being. Big surprise . . . NOT.

No MisterMark you are not getting it. I'm not saying it is right. But a private school or a private country club or a private anything can say Fuck Off to whoever they want to.

I understand this and have understood it since I was a small child. Then again I'm black. I'm used to not being wanted or welcomed places.

I saw the headlines for this story and as soon as I realized they had been kicked out of a religious school I was like, "oh, that explains it." It's a losing battle, their respective families need to just love and support their daughters and put them in a public school. Sadly, I know of no religious schools that will accept openly gay students. :frown1:

 

[MisterMark]

I understand this and have understood it since I was a small child. Then again I'm black. I'm used to not being wanted or welcomed places.

I think the people who say it's fine to discriminate are often people who have always been in the majority. I understand the principled argument some of them make that a private organization shouldn't be forced to accept anyone they don't want, but still, I think if some of them could experience discrimination based on a core part of who they are, it might change their view on a situation like this.

 

[kalipygian]

Not exactly. ELCA Lutheranism is a very theologically liberal organization. They ordain women as ministers and Bishops and have a theology based on God's unconditional love and forgiveness. Many ELCA churches also participate in the LGBT advocate group called Lutheran's Concerned and list themselve as "Accepting" churches.

This particular high school in the OP's article is run by one of two extremely fundamentalist sects of Lutheranism that split off quite a while ago. Not surprisingly, their beef with the mainstream denomination was over the standard laundry list of fundamentalists everywhere. Same sex marriage, abortion, the means to salvation by personal committment, etc.

This particular sect is called the Wisconsin Synod Lutheran Church and the other conservative sect is the Missouri Synod.

The mainstream denomination is called The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, where in this case the term 'Evangelical' is the old traditional meaning, which is the act of spreading the word of God's unconditional love, Grace and forgiveness. This is the original meaning before the term was coopted by American conservative religious groups.

Also, in Germany where it originated, and was long the established church in many principalities, they have always called themselves die Evangelische Kirchen, I think the term Lutheran was applied by others.

I looked at the school's web site and statement of faith, they are more fundamentalist than I realized any Lutheran synods were, they sound like a baptist bible school.

 

[seamonster]

An appeals panel finds California Lutheran High School in Riverside County is not a business and therefore doesn't have to comply with a state law barring discrimination based on sexual orientation.

By Maura Dolan
January 28, 2009

Reporting from San Francisco -- After a Lutheran school expelled two 16-year-old girls for having "a bond of intimacy" that was "characteristic of a lesbian relationship," the girls sued, contending the school had violated a state anti-discrimination law.

In response to that suit, an appeals court decided this week that the private religious school was not a business and therefore did not have to comply with a state law that prohibits businesses from discriminating. A lawyer for the girls said Tuesday that he would ask the California Supreme Court to overturn the unanimous ruling by a three-judge panel of the 4th District Court of Appeal.

The appeals court called its decision "narrow," but lawyers on both sides of the case said it would protect private religious schools across California from such discrimination suits.

Kirk D. Hanson, who represented the girls, said the "very troubling" ruling would permit private schools to discriminate against anyone, as long as the schools used their religious beliefs as justification.

Full story: School can expel lesbian students, court rules - Los Angeles Times

You Know if the US just embraced Universal Human Rights then a lot of your problems would go away.

 

[B_cigarbabe]

I think the people who say it's fine to discriminate are often people who have always been in the majority. I understand the principled argument some of them make that a private organization shouldn't be forced to accept anyone they don't want, but still, I think if some of them could experience discrimination based on a core part of who they are, it might change their view on a situation like this.

Seriously QFT!
C.B.:sasmokin:

 

[D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse]

The gay movement has to realize it is not welcomed everywhere and can't force everyone to be tolerant.

eHarmony, a "traditional" christian online dating service was taken to court by a New Jersey gay man for not providing match-up services to the LGBT community. eHarmony is a privately-run company that does not receive public funding. They're a capitalistic enterprise that happens to be "christian-oriented".

Mindbogglingly, a court ruled that eHarmony must start matching up gay patrons.


I think this ruling was a bit much. We don't need to fly our rainbow flag into every nook and cranny of this country.

 

[MisterMark]

You Know if the US just embraced Universal Human Rights then a lot of your problems would go away.

Universal human rights? In the U.S.?! :rofl:

That's be the day!

 

[MisterMark]

eHarmony, a "traditional" christian online dating service was taken to court by a New Jersey gay man for not providing match-up services to the LGBT community. eHarmony is a privately-run company that does not receive public funding. They're a capitalistic enterprise that happens to be "christian-oriented".

Mindbogglingly, a court ruled that eHarmony must start matching up gay patrons.

I think this ruling was a bit much.

I have a feeling the New Jersey man had a personal vendetta against eHarmony or just wanted to make a point.

With that said, I do understand the reasoning behind the decision. eHarmony is providing a service for the public. They're headquartered in California. Based on the law here, they're not supposed to discriminate against anyone based on sexual orientation. I don't think they have to even provide a service that equivalent to the service they provide for heterosexuals, but they do have to offer something, even if it's just a form that asks for your name, age, and your favorite color.

 

[Principessa]

The gay movement has to realize it is not welcomed everywhere and can't force everyone to be tolerant.

I can't believe you said that out loud! Are you sure you're gay? That is not the party line, young man. opcorn:

eHarmony, a "traditional" christian online dating service was taken to court by a New Jersey gay man for not providing match-up services to the LGBT community. eHarmony is a privately-run company that does not receive public funding. They're a capitalistic enterprise that happens to be "christian-oriented".

I know people who have met online and gotten married but no one from e-Harmony. I tried it for 6 months and had few responses; as soon as they saw my face pic they dumped me.

Mindbogglingly, a court ruled that eHarmony must start matching up gay patrons.

Gee, maybe they will now offer interracial dating as well.

I think this ruling was a bit much. We don't need to fly our rainbow flag into every nook and cranny of this country.

I don't know that I agree with you on the e-Harmony ruling.

 

[Guy-jin]

It's an interesting argument to me because in the modern age, individual rights and privacy advocates are now grouped with equal rights groups in the overarching group of "Liberals" in America. But when it comes to this type of issue, the two specific groups butt heads.

I will say, however, that a school in the modern age in America that won't accept black people, for example, is seen as unenlightened, barbaric, and outright hateful. Meanwhile, those that bar attendance to homosexuals are merely seen as "flexing their rights" by most people. That, to me, is the most telling thing about it.

Are they breaking the law? No. Should they be scorned, seen as a hateful place that encourages bigotry and ignorance, and tabooed into practical nonexistence? Absolutely.

 

[JustAsking]

Also, in Germany where it originated, and was long the established church in many principalities, they have always called themselves die Evangelische Kirchen, I think the term Lutheran was applied by others.

I looked at the school's web site and statement of faith, they are more fundamentalist than I realized any Lutheran synods were, they sound like a baptist bible school.

Yes, thanks for adding that. It comes from the Greek Ευαγγέλιο, or
'euangelos', which means 'to bring the good news.' Its ironic because the American Christian conservative evangelicals only seem to bring bad news.

And yes you are spot on, the Wisconsin and Missouri Synod Lutherans are indistinguishable from Southern Baptist for the most part.

 

[Guy-jin]

Yes, thanks for adding that. It comes from the Greek Ευαγγέλιο, or
'euangelos', which means 'to bring the good news.' Its ironic because the American Christian conservative evangelicals only seem to bring bad news.

I'm an Evangelist!

You're all going to hell!

:dance:

 

[MH07]

Thanks to all of you for helping to explain this to me. I was just having a conversation with mindseye about this very topic the other night. I was wondering how it was illegal for a gay bar to ban straight people, but not illegal for a gay sex club to ban straight people. It sounds like the answer is that because the bar is open to the public, they can't ban heteros, but because the gay sex club is not open to the public, they can pick and choose whoever they want.

The LPSG is so educational. :smile:

Now, in payment for all this enlightenment, I expect an invitation to the private gay sex club (especially if you'll be there). Pleeeeeeeease? :smile:

 

[B_Nick4444]

finally!

a ruling in Kalifornystan that actually makes sense!

 

[MisterMark]

finally!

a ruling in Kalifornystan that actually makes sense!

Yeah! Good thing you don't live here, isn't it?!

 

[Drifterwood]

How many parents do you suppose will remove their kids in protest?

Exactly.

 

[onelastdance07]

I think its wrong if you don't like the way they do things don't go to the site there are many other sites to go to. You need help r if you need to do online dating srry get a social life. I have never been in a relationship but I aint that desperate lol

 

[Principessa]

It's an interesting argument to me because in the modern age, individual rights and privacy advocates are now grouped with equal rights groups in the overarching group of "Liberals" in America. But when it comes to this type of issue, the two specific groups butt heads.

I will say, however, that a school in the modern age in America that won't accept black people, for example, is seen as unenlightened, barbaric, and outright hateful. Meanwhile, those that bar attendance to homosexuals are merely seen as "flexing their rights" by most people. That, to me, is the most telling thing about it.

Are they breaking the law? No. Should they be scorned, seen as a hateful place that encourages bigotry and ignorance, and tabooed into practical nonexistence? Absolutely.

Uhmm, being black and being gay are two very different things. I understand your point but that is a lousy analogy.

How many parents do you suppose will remove their kids in protest? Exactly.

:rofl: :lmao: As if!

I think its wrong if you don't like the way they do things don't go to the site there are many other sites to go to.

You mean the school site? I think you may have missed the point.

You need help if you need to do online dating sorry get a social life. I have never been in a relationship but I aint that desperate lol

I remember you. Aren't you the virgin from chat who annoyed everyone by posting song lyrics instead of actually chatting?

FYI: When you live in a glass house you shouldn't throw stones.