School Shooting today

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by mephistopheles, Oct 9, 2006.

  1. mephistopheles

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    Today there was a school shotting at the middle school...

    I'm at the highschool so I'm not sure what happened but there was a child with an AK47 today at the middle school, shot the ceiling or something.

    check it out


    Even at 13 years old these kids are going crazy... this country is starting to grow on me.
     
  2. SpeedoGuy

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    Sad. I hate to say it but school shootings and other mass killings seem to be happening so often now in the U.S. that they're almost commonplace. How many similar episodes have occurred in the last two months?

    Regrettably, I see them as an inevitable consequence of the confrontational and violence worshipping culture America has created for itself.
     
  3. tripod

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    How the f**k does a 13 year old get a hold of a banned assault rifle, I thought that those were illegal? I know that a ton of the Russian or Chinese SKS rifles are out there that look VERY similar, but a REAL AK-47... what the f**k?
     
  4. D_Herin_Ghan

    D_Herin_Ghan Account Disabled

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    The assault weapons ban ran out about two years ago. In addition, people travel to bring stuff back.
     
  5. tripod

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    You can bring an AK-47 through customs?
     
  6. D_Herin_Ghan

    D_Herin_Ghan Account Disabled

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    Not every car gets searched you know. AK's get smuggled in, traded here on the black market. But I'm not positive if they fall under the category of assault rifles which are now legal. However, previously they were smuggled obviously.

    Now a days, it very well may be legal to own them. I'm not familiar with the assault rifle ban, so I don't know it word for word..
     
  7. tripod

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    Wow, I bet they come in through San Diego smuggled in those huge shipping containers. Or smuggled through Mexico or possibly Canada. I definately think that AK-47's or M-16's should not be allowed in this country. The SKS's and AR-15's are plenty deadly. Thanx for the info LINittanyLion!
     
  8. roosevelt

    roosevelt New Member

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    whoa... lets get some facts straight here...

    AK47's are made in both semi- auto and fully- auto versions, semi auto versions are available in the US, and must be "manufactured" here, though most of the parts are actually from overseas, certain parts of the firearm must be produced domesticaly, these include the reciever (the serial numbered part that is recorded at time of manufacture, and sale) and various internal parts. these parts ensure that the firearm is indeed semi- automatic, and not fully automatic.

    fully- auto versions are NOT available legally in the US (There are few exceptions)

    If the kid had a gun, at 13 years old, that's illegal from the get go, whether fully- or semi- automatic, a parent somewhere is responsible for that childs access to that firearm.

    Many times people don't know what a gun is and declare it to be something that we find to be scary or offensive, when you think of guns that everyone knows and are scary you hear "AK47, M16, Glock, Uzi" and almost every time you hear someone tell a story with a gun involved, one of those names is brought up, in spite of the fact that most fire-arms related incidents involve another type of weapon than those on the short list. the names are said, because we easily identify to the weapon, whether that was the weapon used or not.

    If anyone on the boards has any firearms related questions, you can ask me, I've forgotten more about firearms than most gun dealers will ever know.
     
  9. davidjh7

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    Unfortunately, far too many gun owners are complete and total idiots, and totally irresponsible, just like in many other aspects of life. I'm not going to get nto the gun control debate, because there is the valid point that anything that can hurt someone else is a dangerous weapon in the wrong hands. I do believe, however, that as in other privaledges, those who induge in such privaledges are totaly responsible for their behavior, and should be treated accordingly. If a 13 year old kid brings an assult rifle to school, and starts shooting up the place, the kid should be punished appropriately. In addition, if the gun owner, unless he can show by a verified police report that his gun was stolen before the event, and shows he took all proper percautions to prevent his gun from being stolen, should be sento to prison for a minimum period of time--no parole, no excuses, no leniency. Guns are WEAPONS--there entire purpose for being is to kill something. That is why they were invented. They therefore hold a much higher risk than other items used as weapons, like cars. If more people were held responsible for what they did or didn;t do, there would be ahell of alot less of this kinda of shit happening. My opinion, and radical, I know, but I stand by it.
     
  10. roosevelt

    roosevelt New Member

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    Not so radical really.

    I strongly support strong punishment for those who use or furnish firearms used in crimes.

    Too many guns in america to think a ban will have any effect, but strong punishment for illegal use... now that has teeth!
     
  11. chris4869

    chris4869 New Member

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    Another one??!!
     
  12. madame_zora

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    You're continuing to grow on me, that was beautiful. :biggrin1:

    Kids get guns from Daddy's closet most of the time. We'll never have any adequate gun control because you can't issue a psychological evaluation to everyone before they buy them. We continue to worry about all the wrong things, it makes me sad.
     
  13. Lex

    Lex
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    And people think inner city schools are dangerous. Right.
     
  14. BobLeeSwagger

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    Believe it or not, school shootings are more rare now than they were 10 years ago, and children are a microscopic percentage of gun victims. The average school is a much safer place for a child to be than at home. Not that that makes it more palatable.
     
  15. 10.5andproudofit

    10.5andproudofit New Member

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    I am about as pro second amendment as possible, so i'll throw my hat in the ring here.

    ok first off, it wasn't an AK-47. i'll bet my life on it. it was most likely a WASR-10. whats the difference you ask? country of origin, production, and slight internal differences. is that significant? yes. An inability to accurately assess a problem allows a problem to stretch into areas it doesn't belong. Their is no 'assault rifle' the 1994 brady bill that sunset in september of 2004 was an admitted failure and was little more than feel good legislation. the weapons that were affected in that ban constituted less than 2% of the types of weapons used in violent crime in america. since the ban has sunset, murders droped by nearly 4% in the US and also a 2% decline in violent crimes was noted. are they related? who knows for sure but its worth considering.

    Another point, no one here has really said we need more gun control, and I applaud that because it shows significant insight. if i break 10 laws to commit a crime, will passing legislation that creates an 11th have an impact on me? no it won't. Consider the most famous school shooting: the columbine killers broke 18 firearm related laws.

    Yes america is safer for school shootings now than it was 10 years ago. that is totally accurate.

    availability of firearms has no direct causation to firearm related crime. this is most punctuated by the situation that has arisen in the UK. 1968 saw the passage of legislation that severly limited the conditions under which firearms can be legally owned, since that point, the homicide rate has risen steadily and disproportionally to the population growth. another interesting point is legislation passed in both GB and Austrailia that severely restricted handgun ownership shortly after experienced a 60% and 26% increase in rape cases. the US saw a rise in handgun ownership and saw a 13% drop (95-2003) again, there were obviously other factors in play, and i dont claim causation, just correlation.

    another note about austrailia. (sorry aussies, but you guys are a prime gun control legilslation example) 2000 saw further anti-gun legislation, and again also saw a 19% increase in murder using firearms.

    madaam z brought up a good point with physch exams

    I live in NY. everytime i purchase a firearm a background check is run on me through the FBI. this is conducted for every person who purchases a firearm legally. again looking at columbine, the two killers had a person with a clean record (one of their girlfriends) purchase 2 of the guns used. the third was already illegal to own.

    now lets look at the school shooting that just happened- i believe it was 1995 that saw the passage of the safe school zones act. this bans firearms within 1000 feet of any public school. In Pearl, Mississippi, A assistant principal had formerly carried a firearm to school. When the 1995 "Gun-Free School Zones" law passed, he began locking his firearm in his car and parking at least a quarter-mile away from the school. When that shooting incident started, he ran to his car, got his gun, ran back, disarmed the shooter and held him on the ground until the police arrived. Had the law not been passed, the assistant principal might have prevented the two deaths and seven shooting-related injuries. obviously this is speculation, and anecdotal, but often a lot of anti gun sentiments are very anecdotal as well.

    I am sorry if this sounds like a rant but it is. I feel that fear of firearms and movements toward heavier handed laws, or even talk about the 'gun problem' in the US or anywhere in the world are dangerous. I view it as ignorance to information. Severe gun control, to the best of my knowledge, has never created a 'safer' society; and yes i actually have looked. :(

    random interesting gun facts:
    some of the first US gun laws were in the Jim Crow laws

    texans who practice concealed carry are 7.6x less likely to be arrested for a violent crime

    adolf hitler, Mao, Stalin, Ida Amiin (sp?) and musalinni were some of the most vocal anti gun activists :p (i just like reminding people of that, no its not related)

    i have a bunch but this post is already getting too long. thanks for anyone who actually reads it. if anyone wants some literature on firearm legislation and its effects pm me and i'd be happy to direct you towards some.
     
  16. tripod

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    There are very few regulations for rifles, just rules on how it should be stored in a vehicle. My mom is a gun enthusiast, she carries a concealed weapon and her and my stepdad own a small arsenal (her last husband was a gunsmith and after he died she had to liquidate his AWESOME collection). They argue with me all the time about how Jesse Jackson wants to take their guns away. It's gets pretty old. I grew up in Chicago that has pretty strict state laws on handgun ownership. That's what we are really talking about isn't it?

    Why is it that these shootings are in rural, conservative areas with fairly lax gun regulations as compared to NY, IL, or CA? It was pretty hard to get a stolen handgun in Chicago, you had to know someone that was "connected to the mafia or a street gang like the Latin Kings". In North Carolina, I could get a stolen handgun from any crackhead that needed a rock! Gun control laws work and are necessary! Good, high quality firearms can be fairly expensive, and people who own them and have the luxury and money to go to the range for all of the hours required to get a concealed weapons permit (let alone afford the bullets), are from a fairly priveleged class. Poor people don't spend all day at the range, they can't afford it. Since violent crime is perpetrated by people of lower economic means, that would render the point about people who have concealed weapon permits being so many times less likely to commit a violent crime mute.

    The second ammendment is a beautiful thing, but I'm curious as to why we need guns to protect us from the people we voluntarilly elect to office. That is a conservative rallying cry meant to get gun owners to vote republican. We needed guns when we were ruled by an absolute monarchy.
     
  17. 10.5andproudofit

    10.5andproudofit New Member

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    tripod-

    your point is a valid one. the background check (NICS) is performed now for all firearm purchases. including long guns. there are a variety of laws concerning the legality of longarms, from minimum barrel length and overall length, to modes of fire, transport (which you touched on) storage and a few others.

    IL has no concealed carry. nor does wisconsin, they are the only 2 states in the union without it.

    I think what your starting to get at now is the necessity for rifles like those in the ak family or ar-15 family. if you comply to certain magazine and ammo restrictions, you can hunt with these rifles in some states, and their are benifits to it. I have an AR-15 that i built that is almost purely a competition rifle. there are a lot of competitions and classes that require a rifle that has the capabilities that these ones have

    as to why there is 'less' percieved laws on rifle/shotgun ownership- its a function of concealability. it is presumed that a person with a concealed handgun poses more of a threat than one with an exposed long arm; reason being you can see the exposed long arm and notify authorities/ avoid the situation. thats a really drowned down version, but thats basically what it boils down to.

    As to why we need guns to protect us from elected officials-

    I am going to do my best not to sound like a conspiracy theorist here so bear with me. Regardless of what America thinks of itself, it is a country like any other. As a result of that some might argue that someday a need might arise for the people to 'check' the governments power. I don't think a second american revolution is coming in my life time, and i am in my early 20s. that being said people raise it as a concern.

    More importantly i think is the issue of precidence. If the second amendment is eroded away through laws more and more, it establishes a governmental power in which it can pick and choose which laws it will enforce and recognize as established by the constitution and the bill of rights. Its not that far fetched to percieve a time where the government tries to restrict free speech in the interest of 'national security' more than it already is. The bill of rights is not a conditional document to only be observed when the world is steaming along peachy keen and it is the government that should go above and beyond to respect it, not the people having to bend to it's will to make it easier on our officials.

    legitimate self defense and sporting arguments can be made for these style of weapons, as well as collector value. i have 2 yugoslavian SKS's that i restored to their original condition and the history of those rifles is fantastic. i can trace one back to the late 50s-60s time period in yugoslavia. that rifle was there while history was made. i think thats kinda neat.

    my main point is this though-
    if you don't want to own a firearm, or you don't want to own a specific type, please by all means don't own one. Alls i ask is that people don't try to erode the rights of others without fulling understanding what niche it is that a certain thing fills.
    i look at this the same way i look at abortion and same sex marriage (probably a big stretch for some) I don't want an abortion. Nor do i want to marry a same sex partner, but i think everyone should have the option if they choose to exercise it. just because it's not for me I don't assume to know its not for everyone else.

    now your probably saying yes but firearms are intended only to kill. deer kill more people annually than firearms kill children. and you are more likely to die from medical gross neglagence at a hospital than in a shooting. i won't even bring car statistics into it but it's not even close.

    if someone is determined to do bad things, they can do so as effectively if not more so without firearms. it's a person who kills, not a tool. if you want to lower the crime rate in our country, teach second graders to read.

    dont laugh at that either. there is a direct relationship between the failure rate of second graders and violent offenders later in life. it's a statistic that is being used to gauge the rate of construction for prisons.

    the underground economy will always exist and trade in illegal goods. make firearms more illegal, and you create a market that runs just like the drug trade. it will be too profitable not to develop.

    i am not saying we should get rid of every gun law on the book. i just think much of the legislation was passed with good intentions and poor execution. I also feel that none of the legislation fixes the actuall problem, which is the 'person' factor. help the people and the problems will drop.
     
  18. roosevelt

    roosevelt New Member

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    Actually, All firearms purchases through a licensed dealer (the majority of sales) require a form 4473 (new format) and an FBI records check.

    Both long guns and hand guns are included in that legislation, and aproval is required for the purchase of any firearm.

    You can get a stolen handgun almost anywhere with VERY little trouble (I was a journalist for a while, and wrote a piece on it) chicago and NY city where actually some of the easiest places in my experience (though, they also had some of the highest prices)

    Illinois also has strict long gun ownership laws, believe it or not, they just aren't as publicised.

    If you think poor people don't go to the shooting range, you need to spend time at a shooting range in the south!

    Not trying to Diss you Tripod, not at all (realy) I just know that often mis-information is the only information out there.

    I am strongly aposed to any law that would take away any of my rights, and it's the continual passage of such laws that make me worry.

    I do however strongly support any legislation that punishes criminals (rather than legislation that would make me a criminal for owning something I legally have for years)

    I am Pro Gun, and I have legaly used a firearm to legally save my own life. I am Not a statistic by the way, because I never fired the gun in order to stop him, I simply used it to show force, and hold him untill the police arrived. (and the criminal who tried to kill me is now walking the streets again, by the way)
     
  19. 10.5andproudofit

    10.5andproudofit New Member

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    i wasnt sure about the 4473 untill my second post, and i forgot the name of it :( thank you for clearing that up roosevelt!

    and i apologize to tripod if i came across as rude, this is just a topic i am extremely passionate about.
     
  20. davidjh7

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    I'm glad you ARE passionate about it. Guns and the laws about them are a difficult issue for me to resolve. On the one hand, countries that have increadibly strict gun laws have a much much lower incidents of death by guns than the US. Statistics aside, when the incidene is 10,000 to one, statistical variation pretty much goes out the window. THe hows and whys of how those numbers are gathered and interpreted are, and will continue to be, a hotly debated issue, so I'm not going to try and address that here. But it is hard to argue with such big differences. On the other hand, the rights of the citizens of the US have been consistently eroded from the day they were first written, and there is a valid appropriate use for firearms. But the use is to kill. It may be practice killing, as in target shooting, but the overall motivation is the same. There are valid instances where it is justified to use them in such a manner. Here where I live, a mentally violent person, with a long long history of almost psychotic levels, recently attacked a guy on the street, with no apparent provocation at all. The man was severly beaten, to the point he had to be hospitalized. The beating victim was carrying a concealed handgun. He had the permit to do so, and was carrying the firearm legally. He used that gun to kill his attacker. They are now trying to decide about self defense--he will likely be brought to trial--someone DID die, justifiably or not, so it should be properly conducted through the justice system. More than likely, he will get off on a self defence plea, and I hope he does. This is a case of justifiable self defence in my opinion. My biggest beef is irresponsible gun ownership. Daddies who keep their loaded handgun in a unlocked bedside table with little kids around ( But what if someone breaks in? I NEED to have my loaded weapon at hand!!!) If you can't make a place where you can quickly access your gun and ammunition in an emergency situation, and still provide proper safety for those around the gun, then you are a fucking idiot, and shouldn't be allowed to own that gun, for your and everyone around you's protection. If your gun kills somebody, regardless of whether you pulled the trigger or not, regardless of if it was stoeln or not (you didn;t properly secure it if it was stolen, did you?), you should do jail time. It should be a felony, on your permanent record. If YOUR gun was used to kill someone, you fucked up, unless you had absolutely no other choice, as in, self defence--they doed, or you died. Period. If you fuck up, you should pay the price for it. Maybe if people were forced to be held accountable for their actions, or inactions, fewer people would die or be seriously injured or maimed from gunshots I'm sure I will be blasted for this opinion, but so be it. There is ZERO excuse for being irresponsible with guns. No tolerance,period.

    On another note, for the record, the second amendment exists for the national defence---it secures the right to keep and bear arms, because of the need for a militia. According to said amendment, if other means are deemed adequate to cover national defence, then the right to keep and bear arms could legally be revoked as well. And that revocation could easily be argued to be constitutional. It could be a reasonable interpetation, if challenged at the supreme court level. Gun advocates should remmeber this---scream second amendment too much, and the second amedment could be reinterpreted. Use reason and responsibility to keep the right, not whimpering about "my rights, my rights". Or the "right" could be taken away if you piss off enough people.

    Amendment II


    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
     
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