Sciavo and Congress

jay_too

Experimental Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2002
Posts
789
Media
0
Likes
5
Points
236
Age
43
Location
CA
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Mindseye, You are BAD.

I do not know which would be worse to kept alive for 15 years after losing the mental capacity to be aware of my surroundings or to be mentally active and completely incapitated physically. I guess the latter would be as close to hell on earth as I can imagine. In either case after 5500 ass wipes [round up(15 x 365)], I know for certain I would pray that someone with humanity would let me depart in peace.

On the evening news, I caught a few doctors involved in hospice and end of life practice talking about witholding water and/or food from incapacitated patients. They said it was painless. Antecdotally, one said that in many terminal cancer patients they stop eating/drinking and ask, "Shouldn't I be hungry or thirsty?" The other two did not disagree.

I think I heard on the radio this morning on the way to class that she has been in this vegetative state 15 years and about 7 years ago, her husband asked to remove support.

jay
 

KinkGuy

Expert Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2004
Posts
2,794
Media
0
Likes
155
Points
268
Age
70
Location
southwest US
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Should I ever, God forbid, wind up in a horrible situation such as this and someone doesn't pull the plug?

I AM COMING BACK TO HAUNT YOUR ASS !!![/COLOR]

Close enough. That whole shouting emphasis thing backfired.
 

lapdog2001

Worshipped Member
Gold
Platinum Gold
Joined
Jun 30, 2004
Posts
5,718
Media
15
Likes
13,368
Points
643
Location
Massachusetts (United States)
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
I intentionaly stayed out of the politics of the matter (too much BS in DC!) and simply addressed my argument against the fact she is brain dead. How can she be brain dead if her brain is still controlling her heartbeat and breathing? I am fully aware that she will never recover and that there is significant damage to her brain.

I simply think that 'life support' does not mean food and water. Her brain, no matter how damaged, is supporting her life functions, not machines. Withholding food and water from a live human being to me is murder.

If she was on a respirator ...
If she were brain dead ....

I would be in favor of pulling the plug if that is what she or the the family wanted.
I also support living wills, and patients' decisions to sign 'do not rescuscitate' or 'no heroric efforts' type documents. I also realize that many terminal cancer patients die from the painkilling drugs they are receiving before the cancer takes its final toll.

I am not saying I would wish to live the way she has for 15 years. I hope it never comes to that for me or anyone in my family. Some people wish to fight until the very end, some do not. Those wishes should be respected. Unfortunately, Terri's wishes were not known.

Sorry, your hair color is wrong, pull the plug.
Sorry, your IQ is too low for us, pull the plug.
Sorry, you have high blood pressure, pull the plug.
Sorry, I don't agree with you, pull the plug.
Ann Coulter: Sorry, you are a Democrat, pull the plug.

^^^^ Attempt at sarcasm as to what this could lead to in the future.

Respectfully,

LapDog :p
 
1

13788

Guest
carolinacurious:
I intentionaly stayed out of the politics of the matter (too much BS in DC!) and simply addressed my argument against the fact she is brain dead. How can she be brain dead if her brain is still controlling her heartbeat and breathing? I am fully aware that she will never recover and that there is significant damage to her brain.

I simply think that 'life support' does not mean food and water. Her brain, no matter how damaged, is supporting her life functions, not machines. Withholding food and water from a live human being to me is murder.

I looked up "brain dead" and discovered two things:

1. You are right about Terri not being "brain dead".

2. Many physicians hate the term "brain dead" and wish it would fall out of use.

Ok, she could be "brain dead" and still have a beating heart, it's the breathing without a resperator (and a few other things) that's the real distinction here.

"I am fully aware that she will never recover and that there is significant damage to her brain....Withholding food and water from a live human being to me is murder."

It seemed to me that if people realized that there was a 0% chance that she was coming back that they would relent. Evidently I was wrong. I'm not sure that I agree that refusing to force feed glop through a tube directly into the stomach is "withholding", and personally, if they are able to carry this through I won't consider Michael Schiavo, her Doctors or any of the judges involved "murderers", but I respect your reasoned stand on principle.

Is Terri Schiavo truly a "live human being"? (obviously, you would say yes, I say (liquid cerebral cortex?) no.

"Some people wish to fight until the very end, some do not. Those wishes should be respected. Unfortunately, Terri's wishes were not known."

As I said before, the person closest to her in life says that her wishes were known.

For me the people who are suffering the most here are not Terri, she's gone, it's her husband and her parents. Her husband has been trying to do what he and many others consider the right thing for many years and has been thwarted and demonized by one process after another. Her parents are suffering because they are living on false hope, Terri's death would allow them closure and they could begin to move on with their lives.

I guess we have to agree to disagree.
 

madame_zora

Sexy Member
Joined
May 5, 2004
Posts
9,608
Media
0
Likes
52
Points
258
Location
Ohio
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Wow, this is a hotbed, for sure. I would hope in that situation that someone would love me enough to let me go. Having worked several years in the deathcare industry I know very well the insanity that surrounds the loss of a loved one, but it is insanity nonetheless. I've seen people throw themselves bodily at a casket being lowered into the ground, I've had people beg me to let them talk to their dearly departed relaitve as if I had some special power. People who are very normal and rational at other times in their lives can lose all touch with reality when death comes in to view. Her parents are clearly suffering this illusion, that she is benefitting in some way from remaining on life support, when in fact it is only they themselves who are getting any sort of benefit. As a human being, I find it distasteful to "starve her out" even though she would not be aware of it, but I find the option of assisted suicide for someone who has no chance of recovery to be the best. This is an absolutely horrific situation, and I wish reason and compassion will come to the hearts of her family, and soon.
 

madame_zora

Sexy Member
Joined
May 5, 2004
Posts
9,608
Media
0
Likes
52
Points
258
Location
Ohio
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Jonb, can you cut and paste the article? It requires a sign up and they want far more information than I'm willing to give out to read an article. Thanks, buddy.
 

jonb

Sexy Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2002
Posts
7,578
Media
0
Likes
65
Points
258
Age
40
WASHINGTON -- A Texas law signed by then-Gov. George W. Bush in 1999 allowing an end to life-sustaining treatment for certain patients became a point of contention Monday in the Terri Schiavo case, sharpening the focus on the president's eleventh-hour intervention in the question of the woman's fate.

The law that Bush signed as governor sets conditions for how a patient's relatives or other surrogates may make end-of-life decisions, and it spells out procedures for cases where the surrogates and medical providers disagree on whether to continue or to suspend life-sustaining care.

Critics have said the Texas law is inconsistent with the measure Bush signed in the early hours of Monday that forced the Schiavo case into the federal courts, a bill that Bush said later in the day would give the parents of the brain-damaged woman "another opportunity to save Terri Schiavo's life."

Speaking on the House floor Sunday, Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-Fla.) said the Texas law "liberalized the situations under which a person in Texas can avoid artificial life support."

"It appears that President Bush felt, as governor, that there was a point at which, when doctors felt there was no further hope for the patient, that it is appropriate for an end-of-life decision to be made, even over the objections of family members. . . . There is an obvious conflict here between the president's feelings on this matter now as compared to when he was governor of Texas," Wasserman Schultz said during a late-night House debate Sunday on the Schiavo legislation.

That measure, which Bush signed about 1 a.m. Monday outside his White House bedroom, was intended to aid family members fighting to reinstate Schiavo's feeding tube.

"If the president of the United States really cared about the issue of the removal of feeding tubes, then why did he sign a bill as governor in Texas that allows hospitals to save money by removing feeding tubes over a family's objection?" asked Rep. John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.) during the House debate.

White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan said Monday that the Democrats had made "uninformed accusations" and that the president was consistent in signing both the Schiavo legislation and the 1999 legislation in Texas.

"The legislation that he signed into law actually provided new protections for patients. . . . Prior to the passage of the '99 legislation that he signed, there were no protections," McClellan said.

Questions about Bush's consistency on end-of-life issues have been in focus in part because of the increasing importance of religious conservatives to the Republican base. Democrats have accused White House and Republican leaders of a political ploy in seizing on a case that began as a family dispute and has been litigated for years in Florida courts.

People familiar with the Texas law said that both the White House and the Democratic lawmakers seemed to have grounds for their comments.

As Wasserman Schultz said on the House floor, the Texas law lays out procedures for physicians to follow when they think a patient's condition is hopeless, even if family members disagree. Doctors can make a case to their hospital's ethics committee. If the ethics committee agrees, life support can be removed.

But first, dissenting families are given 10 days to find another facility willing to care for the patient.

"That was a law that President Bush did not just allow to become law without his signature. He came back from a campaign trip to sign it," Wasserman Schultz said.

The White House countered that the bill added patient protections that had not previously existed in Texas law, such as the 10-day waiting period and the hospital ethics panel review. McClellan said that Bush had vetoed a 1997 bill that would have afforded a patient no such protections.

"Prior to that legislation being passed, I think there was a 72-hour period where if the hospital notified a patient, or the family that represented the patient, that they were going to deny life-sustaining treatment, then they had just that 72-hour period to find a place to transfer the patient that would provide the treatment," McClellan said.

Former Democratic Texas Rep. Glenn Lewis, the law's principal author, said he wrote the bill after consulting with a group of physicians and court-appointed guardians for the terminally ill.

"We were trying to make it easier for everyone," said Lewis, who is now a Fort Worth lawyer. "We tried to write a comprehensive piece of legislation that accounted for everyone's interest."

It is unclear how the law would be applied in the Schiavo case, he said. Schiavo's husband wants to withdraw life support but her parents do not.

Bush was not a central player in the Schiavo case until Saturday, when the White House abruptly announced the president was cutting short a vacation at his Crawford, Texas, ranch to return to Washington and wait for Congress to pass the bill giving the woman's parents standing to take the case to federal court .

The president could have signed the measure in Texas, but by flying back he won praise from some, including religious conservatives -- a voting bloc pivotal in his reelection last year and crucial to the GOP's hopes of expanding its majority and retaining the White House in future elections.

Bush might have benefited from the Schiavo case already, thanks to a 2003 Florida law designed to keep Schiavo alive pushed by Gov. Jeb Bush, his brother. The state law was overturned in court, but analysts credited the measure at the time with helping to mobilize evangelicals in that battleground state to back the president.

Bush did not publicly address the Schiavo case, apart from written statements, until Monday.

"This is a complex case with serious issues," he said in Tucson, where he was making an appearance to promote his Social Security plan. "But in extraordinary circumstances like this it is wise to always err on the side of life."

McClellan told reporters Monday that Bush was awakened by a White House operator after Congress passed the Schiavo bill. An aide walked the bill to the White House residence, where the president stepped into the hallway outside his bedroom and, standing up, signed it.

The law Bush signed in 1999 has been invoked twice in recent weeks by Houston hospitals, to opposite conclusions.

At Texas Children's Hospital, a 6-month-old boy, born with a fatal form of dwarfism in which his lungs were too small to support his small body, died shortly after his breathing tube was removed. His mother objected but could find no facility willing to care for the boy.

A 68-year-old man so brain-damaged that he could not breathe on his own was transferred from St. Luke's Hospital, which said further treatment was hopeless, to a facility in San Antonio that agreed to keep him alive.
 

dickbulge

Experimental Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2005
Posts
209
Media
0
Likes
4
Points
163
Age
74
Location
Utah
Thanks Carolina for a factual and thoughtful response- it has been sadly missing in this debate. I just want to say I think some of our political "leaders" are using the ugliest and most derisive language to describe Michael Schiavo and the Florida judges because they know they are immune from libel laws. Its obscene.

Madame Z you have provided a very humane and informed view of this situation and I would urge anyone trying to reach a personal moral resolution to read her words.
 

madame_zora

Sexy Member
Joined
May 5, 2004
Posts
9,608
Media
0
Likes
52
Points
258
Location
Ohio
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Jonb, thanks for posting that article, I had only heard it referenced. We are sure in some seriously ugly times, my friends!

Dickbulge, there are no situations I can think of where reason and compassion would not be welcome additions. Grief is so all-consuming, it really can't be described until it is felt. My deepest sympathies are with her family, her husband, all concerned.
 

Dr. Bubbles

Experimental Member
Joined
May 10, 2004
Posts
741
Media
0
Likes
2
Points
238
Location
NC
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Female
A hotbed topic?!?! That is an understatement!

I think this stems much deeper than simple political ideological antedotes and comentary from republicans or democrats. Yes, don't get me wrong, I am well aware of the travel changes involved to have Bush sign legislation and yes, am well aware of the deficit and other "more pressing" issues needing to be addressed by the President and Congress, however, they all have individually, to a point, made a conscious effort to address this case and situation.

Personally, I think it is a very private matter - one that the family should resolve and take measures to handle. I completely understand both situations and the dismal realities both sides must engender. My family dealt with a very similar situation back in 1986 when my mother, who was the executive of my grandfather's estate, fought the family for keeping him substained. Papa never wanted to live that way; the family knew this, but they did not want to let him go. Mind you, during this ordeal, my family (mother, father and siblings) endured the burden of caring for Papa until we could no longer. Although Schiavo is in a nursing home and her husband is not "theoritically" taking care of her, he is. No one fully understand the magnitude of responsibility and care it takes to care for someone in this condition. Furthermore, no one is truly addressing the ordeal and the psychological disposition it has impacted on her children. Many different facets undergird this situation.

Emotions are high and people will articulate those in many different viens. I just suggest that people do internal checks and look at teh situation from all angels. This case has made me more consciously aware of the plight and difficult decisions families have to make on daily basis... yes, daily basis. For me, I have don't a living will, directives for the care of my life, etc. to ensure that my family will never have to make these dreadful decisions. Maybe you should think in those terms as well.

My prayers and thoughts are with the family...................
 

Hockeytiger

Cherished Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2004
Posts
721
Media
0
Likes
306
Points
283
Location
Illinois (United States)
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
First of all, for those of you who are left of center, you should be relieved over this. Republicans have just proven their conservative credentials to the religious right without actually doing anything of consequence. Would you have preferred them to have passed an anti-gay bill or an anti-abortion bill? This is merely political theater meant to appease a core constituency. You should be counting your blessings.

Secondly, I would have rather seen Congress pass a bill mandating advanced directives on all citizens and residents so we NEVER have to deal with this issue EVER again.
 

KinkGuy

Expert Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2004
Posts
2,794
Media
0
Likes
155
Points
268
Age
70
Location
southwest US
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
This is JUST a question. I WILL sound cold and heartless, but cons haven't answered this yet, that I am aware of.

So we are now all about saving this life. And now that precedent has been set, thousands more who MAY no longer have the RIGHT to die with dignity.
But at the same time slashing medicare and medicaid funding.

Is this not "playing both sides against the middle"?
How can they demand that lives be preserved at any cost and yet refuse to offer assistance?

I am confused, I guess.

Quoting hockeytiger:
Republicans have just proven their conservative credentials to the religious right without actually doing anything of consequence
Does this not at the very least, open the door for rampant personal legislation for political gain? One small step....................... :grr: And this is OK because there are WORSE things they could have done?????????????? x(
 

jay_too

Experimental Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2002
Posts
789
Media
0
Likes
5
Points
236
Age
43
Location
CA
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Good point, Kink.

It is a shame that all the energy and money that has gone into prolonging a marginal existence at best could not be used to provide basic preventative healthcare to children. What a waste!

jay
 

Hockeytiger

Cherished Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2004
Posts
721
Media
0
Likes
306
Points
283
Location
Illinois (United States)
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
Originally posted by KinkGuy@Mar 23 2005, 08:03 PM
This is JUST a question. I WILL sound cold and heartless, but cons haven't answered this yet, that I am aware of.

So we are now all about saving this life. And now that precedent has been set, thousands more who MAY no longer have the RIGHT to die with dignity.
But at the same time slashing medicare and medicaid funding.

Is this not "playing both sides against the middle"?
How can they demand that lives be preserved at any cost and yet refuse to offer assistance?

I am confused, I guess.

Quoting hockeytiger:
Republicans have just proven their conservative credentials to the religious right without actually doing anything of consequence
Does this not at the very least, open the door for rampant personal legislation for political gain? One small step....................... :grr: And this is OK because there are WORSE things they could have done?????????????? x(
[post=293526]Quoted post[/post]​

Yes. It is called political realism.
 

Hockeytiger

Cherished Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2004
Posts
721
Media
0
Likes
306
Points
283
Location
Illinois (United States)
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
Originally posted by jay_too@Mar 23 2005, 09:56 PM
Good point, Kink.

It is a shame that all the energy and money that has gone into prolonging a marginal existence at best could not be used to provide basic preventative healthcare to children. What a waste!

jay
[post=293554]Quoted post[/post]​

Democracy is the antithesis of efficiency.
 

KinkGuy

Expert Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2004
Posts
2,794
Media
0
Likes
155
Points
268
Age
70
Location
southwest US
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Hockeytiger,
You didn't answer the question. This activity is to be accepted because it could be worse and Democracy is inefficient? huh? I guess I worry a whole lot more about human and civil rights, liberties and freedom than you do. And that's ok.
 

Hockeytiger

Cherished Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2004
Posts
721
Media
0
Likes
306
Points
283
Location
Illinois (United States)
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
Originally posted by KinkGuy@Mar 23 2005, 10:41 PM
Hockeytiger,
You didn't answer the question.  This activity is to be accepted because it could be worse and Democracy is inefficient?  huh?  I guess I worry a whole lot more about human and civil rights, liberties and freedom than you do.  And that's ok.
[post=293565]Quoted post[/post]​

This has nothing to do with dieing with dignity. This is a sham fight. Republicans are not seeking to overturn judicial precedent with this issue or even change the nature of how we deal with “right to die” cases. The bill that was passed merely moved the jurisdiction of the case to federal courts for de novo review. You should fight a battle because is worth fighting, not because you hate your opponents. Learn to prioritize your political issues. There is only so much political capital to spend. You should only spend that capital when there is a nice rate of return. If you fight this battle and win what do you gain? Nothing but pride. If you lose this battle what do you lose? Nothing but your pride. So why fight it? Spend that political capital elsewhere. Democrats had the choice of fighting this issue and risk energizing the Republican base or spending that political capital elsewhere, and they did. The Senate (preliminarily) has eliminated the President’s proposed Medicaid cuts.

Fight only those fights that are worth fighting. There is nothing for the Left to gain or lose out of this issue so it is not worth fighting.

To answer your question more directly, yes you should accept this behavior because there is nothing to win or lose and your efforts are better spent on issues that have ACTUAL ramifications.

Kink, you and I look at the world differently. You are an idealist. Idealists, when confronted with an issue, ask themselves this question, “What should I do?” I am a pragmatist. Pragmatists, when confronted with an issue, ask themselves, “What can I do?”
 

mindseye

Experimental Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2002
Posts
3,399
Media
0
Likes
15
Points
258
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Originally posted by Hockeytiger@Mar 24 2005, 12:44 AM
There is nothing for the Left to gain or lose out of this issue so it is not worth fighting.
[post=293583]Quoted post[/post]​

Oh, but the Left has plenty to gain: seats in 2006. The GOP seriously misread the public pulse on this issue. They took that risk to divert attention from other GOP albatrossi like the Jeff Gannon affair, the ethics investigation of Tom DeLay, the plan to eviscerate Social Security, and of course, the War of Mass Deception and the latest round of associated Torture Memos.