Scottish Independence

[123scotty]

are
the majority of the Scots circumcized

am interested ...
Scotty?

or even the Greeks for that matter

most here are not circumcized the nhs long time ago said it was an unnecessary operation
so the majority are not. also true for the rest of the uk

 

[rbkwp]

RT news says
.. SNP decides to take in 5000 economic migrants
just to piss Cameron off .. good positive move .. vote YES'
(BS on occasion blaming RT, because Jason knows anyuthing RT is BS huh duh?)

most here are not circumcized the nhs long time ago said it was an unnecessary operation
so the majority are not. also true for the rest of the uk


Thanks scotty
same thing happened in Aus/NZ aroundf the same time
the World camt to a realization huh
funny nice, that from a certain generation folk have been left untouched in that regioin .. ha
personally dont mind the cleaning aspect for hygiene, ?

 

[Jason]

Scotland cannot make a decision on immigration. Neither can England, Wales or NI. These are UK decisions. Only the UK can issue visas. Additionally the UK works closely with the Republic of Ireland, with what is in effect a shared policy.

RT has got it wrong and is mischief making. What do any of us expect from Putin's propaganda machine?

 

[rbkwp]

'smile'

Got ya Jason
all BS as written
RT etc
plus i sort of knew, Scotland couldent make that decision
but all fun, hope the SNP did/do/dah put it out there
and give Cam the dodo the shits?? ha

1. imagine Western media UKs SUN, if they had said it 1/2 of the pop of the UK would believe it? duh?
2. and if UKs propoganda m/c say the Gaurdian will do, said it
3. well maybe only a small proportion of its readers may ponder it??

 

[Freddie53]

The state of borders between nations is not universal. The US shares a long border with Canada and a slightly shorter border with Mexico. I suspect that most people in the world that read anything from the US are aware that we have a clown running for President, Donald Trump. Donald has promised to build a tall wall, not a fence, along the entire American/Mexican border. To hear Donald tell it on the news, Mexico has replaced ISIS as the greatest threat to America.

The news was showing how the border with Canada is nothing like the border with Mexico. An example of the US/Canadian border was shown. A house and yard (garden in the UK) was shown along with the ower. The house was within the US border. In the back yard, there was a white marker. The marker showed the border between Canada and the US. The lady's back yard extended into Canada.

The news reporter first explained that he was standing in the US. He took a step north and explained he was now standing in Canada. The marker free standing.

Had the reporter not explained the significance of the marker, I would never have guessed that we were looking at a border between two nations.

I suspect there is a house somewhere that has part of it in the US and part in Canada.

Before 9/11 a passport was not needed to cross back and forth from Canada to the US. I went on a day trip into Canada some 40 years ago.

The US dollar and the Canadian dollar are pegged as close as equal has possible. The Canadian dime (10 % of a dollar) is the same size as an American dime. You can use any combination of Canadian and American quarters to buy something from a self-help machine in both nations.

When I was in Canada, I made some purchases in US dollars and received change in Canadian dollars.

Compare that with what some Americans want along the US/Mexican border: A very tall wall with soldiers on duty the entire length of the border with orders to shoot to kill anyone trying to cross over the wall either way.

Jason has pointed out some serious questions that need to be answered. It is foolish to have a referendum when no one knows what will happen if the majority vote for independence.

I would want the devision of the UK to be spelled out almost in minute detail.

There may be a need for a series of votes, both in the UK as well as Scotland. Let the people of Scotland vote on whether to continue accepting foreign aid from England to maintain the same standard of living for most people in Scottland.

Perhaps at the same time England can vote on whether to continue to help finance Scotland's present standard of living after Scotland goes independent.

Nearly all the ancesters that I can trace have come from the British Isles. That includes both Irelands, Scotland, Wales and England.

This may be true for many on both sides of the pond. I suspect the number of people in the UK who have all their ancestors from one nation in the UK is very small.

BTW: Cameron is a Scottish name!

 

[rbkwp]

thanks fot all the info Freddie
all interesting stuff as usual ..


BTW: Cameron is a Scottish name!

funny as ha'

 

[Jason]

There is an open border between Northern Ireland and Ireland - no fence, no barriers on roads - indeed no sign marking the border. This is possible because UK and Ireland agree migration policy, and much more. There is a fall-back in that there are checks made on movements from NI and Ireland to Great Britain.

An independent Scotland would really need to agree migration policy with rUK as the border is open, frequently invisible. SNP is playing a political game. If Scotland lets in migrants they would mostly immediately travel to England, so in effect SNP are promising to breach the migration policy of rUK, and is seeing this as a weapon.

There's also the problem of rUK and Scotland being one in the EU and one outside. This would require a closed border.

Closing the border is enormously problematic because of the great number of crossings. Half of passengers boarding trains in Scotland travel to England - and we would need some sort of international check-in as we have with Eurostar (trains to France and Belgium) - and this at many stations and for very many trains. The road crossings seem exceptionally problematic. It is hard to imagine the manpower that would be needed to staff these crossings. I think we would have to find a way of rationing crossings.

An independent Scotland would have to be independent. Right now devo-max gives Scotland control of just about everything except foreign policy, defence, migration and monetary policy. If Scotland wants these and therefore wants to diverge from rUK then we have to have a solid border.

 

[desilover]

let them go already...but then it will happen, perhaps not in the next 20 years but it will.

 

[rbkwp]

SNP

rules OK'

 

[superbot]

let them go already...but then it will happen, perhaps not in the next 20 years but it will.

" 'Let' them go.." ??? They recently voted to remain dear.It's called self determination,the clues in the title.

 

[Jason]

let them go already...but then it will happen, perhaps not in the next 20 years but it will.

The people of Scotland voted by 55% to stay in the UK. There's a direct parallel with Northern Ireland where a similar percentage in effect vote to remain part of the UK (they vote DUP and UUP). It is very hard to see how any nation resolves such issues. A substantial minority want a different political settlement.

The Scottish issue has been complicated by myths:
1) The reality is that a territory that breaks away from an EU member state is automatically outside of the EU and must reapply for membership, a process which takes about a decade. The myth is that an independent Scotland would stay in the EU when the EC and several EU nations have stated that there would be no special deal.
2) The reality is that Scotland would be a lot poorer. In order to get its finances into order it would need pretty extreme austerity. The myth is that Scots would be richer with a never-ending supply of North Sea Oil selling at more than twice the present market price.

 

[rbkwp]

i wonder why seemingly staunch British/UK forever/cant do no wrong persons
want the Scots to remain in the UK'

bewildering ..
almost as if there is a feeling/belief, 'we cant make it on our own''

 

[Jason]

i wonder why seemingly staunch British/UK forever/cant do no wrong persons
want the Scots to remain in the UK'

bewildering ..
almost as if there is a feeling/belief, 'we cant make it on our own''

An informal poll in England before the Scottish independence referendum suggested a majority of English people wanted the Scots to leave.

England, Wales and NI (rUK) would have no problem at all with an independent Scotland that was a prosperous nation. The concern is that an independent Scotland would be an economic basket case, the next Greece. Right now Scotland is subsidised by rUK. The subsidy isn't huge, but it exists. An independent Scotland would have to raise taxes somewhat and reduce expenditure somewhat in order to live within the means of Scotland. There's also the problem that smaller nations get less favourable deals for their debt, and Scotland would almost certainly find bond rates were higher. These are problems that could be solved - but only with a realisation that independence will have costs.

SNP are promising the people of Scotland more expenditure and less tax, and speak of an end to austerity and "progressive" policies. SNP are even talking of reneging on their share of the UK's debt (which would exclude them from the bond markets for some years). These are the policies of Syriza. SNP assert that the EU would welcome Scotland (when the EU has said the opposite). The EU would certainly demand financial prudence, which SNP have rejected.

The concern for rUK is that an independent Scotland would be a Greece on our borders. Under the fantasy policies of SNP we're looking at failure of pensions, failure of the health system - and all this in a situation with an open border between Scotland and rUK. Imagine the flow of migrants. And then SNP start talking of stunts like admitting to Scotland economic migrants, which is effectively an attack on England. My view is that if Scotland goes independent we will be looking at a fenced border and stringent border checks - and that really would destroy the Scottish economy. It would also deeply damage rUK.

An independent Scotland under a Conservative government could work. An independent Scotland with SNP's "progressive" (ie Marxist) policies condemns the people of Scotland to the sort of misery endured by Greece. No-one with any decency could wish this level of needless poverty on the Scots. Therefore everyone in England, Wales and NI should support the majority in Scotland who want to remain part of the union.

 

[rbkwp]

i am thinking from way down here in the South Pacific

Scotland will/should take 100%complete ownership of the Nort Sea OIL fields ..
migrants will travel direct from Calais to Aberdeen
Humanmitarian Scots (not sayin the English/Welsh/Irish are not) will ensure billions are made available to support Greece thru its difficult times
no joining any more US Coalitions under the pretext of preventing Global Wars
etc etc ha'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_Scotland's_oil

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...2/oil-revenues-if-scotland-became-independent

 

[Jason]

About half of the North Sea oil fields belong to Norway. There is a query as to precisely where the sea frontier between England and Scotland would run, but some of the North Sea oil fields are English. For added fun there's the idea that Shetland may be so horrified at the idea of Scottish independence that Shetland would become independent, and around half of what might be Scotland's oil is actually Shetland oil. There are issues about the ownership of the companies that extract, pipe and refine the oil (they are not all Scottish). Then there's the reality that North Sea oil is running out. Some of the oil is Scotland's.

 

[desilover]

The people of Scotland voted by 55% to stay in the UK. There's a direct parallel with Northern Ireland where a similar percentage in effect vote to remain part of the UK (they vote DUP and UUP). It is very hard to see how any nation resolves such issues. A substantial minority want a different political settlement.

The Scottish issue has been complicated by myths:
1) The reality is that a territory that breaks away from an EU member state is automatically outside of the EU and must reapply for membership, a process which takes about a decade. The myth is that an independent Scotland would stay in the EU when the EC and several EU nations have stated that there would be no special deal.
2) The reality is that Scotland would be a lot poorer. In order to get its finances into order it would need pretty extreme austerity. The myth is that Scots would be richer with a never-ending supply of North Sea Oil selling at more than twice the present market price.

Okk......so this means it's a done deal forever? times change. If by the year 2040, most opinion polls show a clearly 'yes' majority, will the then Tory, 'Labour' or UKIP or Green or whoever PM ignore it? For now, it's dead. but the UK could still divide, if not in the near future. Comparing it to Ulster is moot....since most UNionists are Protestant, and changing religion is not as simple as chainging vidws on national sovereignty.

 

[desilover]

i am thinking from way down here in the South Pacific

Scotland will/should take 100%complete ownership of the Nort Sea OIL fields ..
migrants will travel direct from Calais to Aberdeen
Humanmitarian Scots (not sayin the English/Welsh/Irish are not) will ensure billions are made available to support Greece thru its difficult times
no joining any more US Coalitions under the pretext of preventing Global Wars
etc etc ha'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_Scotland's_oil

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...2/oil-revenues-if-scotland-became-independent

Nice scolding there, dude, considering they helped build your own country...

 

[desilover]

" 'Let' them go.." ??? They recently voted to remain dear.It's called self determination,the clues in the title.

Well OK dear (sic)...it was a metaphor. I won't shed a tear when it does eventually come to pass. imho, our country wo't exist in its current form in the next 50 years.
I

 

[Jason]

Okk......so this means it's a done deal forever? times change. If by the year 2040, most opinion polls show a clearly 'yes' majority, will the then Tory, 'Labour' or UKIP or Green or whoever PM ignore it? For now, it's dead. but the UK could still divide, if not in the near future. Comparing it to Ulster is moot....since most UNionists are Protestant, and changing religion is not as simple as chainging vidws on national sovereignty.

No I don't see it as a done deal. And I think the UK parliament would accept a yes vote without problems.

Scotland is at present subsidised by rUK so an independent Scotland would have to rebalance, in effect introduce some level of austerity. Additionally North Sea oil is running out. Arguments over just who owns it and what it is worth become irrelevant if in a very few years there won't be any. An independence plan which accepted austerity and accepted that the economy cannot be built on oil would be a reasonable framework.

If the people of Scotland really do want their independence it is perfectly possible. Scots will be poorer (with good government) or a lot poorer (with SNP fantasy economics). This has to be accepted. Notwithstanding it may be considered a reasonable price to pay for independence.

There's a little problem with what independence actually means for most in Scotland. Most home issues are now devolved or being devolved, so there would be no change. The big changes with independence would be to give Scotland power over foreign and defence policy. Curiously I'm not sure that the people of Scotland want this.

 

[rbkwp]

Nice scolding there, dude, considering they helped build your own country...



your sounding like Alf Garnett with each successive post'
google .. ha'

Alf Garnett on the British Empire