Secular meditation

[englad]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for some advice on how to get started secular meditation. I like the idea of emptying my thoughts and the breathing exercises, but it's difficult to find videos helping to guide it. I think it could be a great way to reduce stress. I'm very put off by the spiritual angle that usually gets thrown into it, so Buddhist meditation is definitely not appropriate for me.

Any advice/tips?

 

[Tight_N_Juicy]

I'm predictable.

I smoke weed and listen to music while stretching or watching birds on my property.

I'm not into spiritual stuff either, I'm fully atheist and have no interest in finding a "higher power" for predictable reasons. But I find significance in ritual and symbolism. I think it's because evolutionarily we understand that there's a pattern in our existence. The sun rises. The seasons change as they do according to where you are on the Pale Blue Dot.

So, I ritualize my self care time with marijuana and music. Bong hits are like medicated breathing exercises for me.

I can stretch, go for a walk, listen to either music or the birds singing... I just try to do something in my mind in a way that centers me around the same time and with similar activities a few days a week to feel connected to the universe. Because even though I will never see the vast chaos that truly is our home due to my perspective and insanely limited time, the time I do have evolved with a very specific ritual.

However you spend it, my suggestion is just acknowledging your individual ritual that only you will experience during your time floating on this spec of pale blue light floating in space and time

Meditation (in my not professional opinion) doesn't have to be just quiet thinking and breathing... I find my "center" with very fucking loud music blasting into the atmosphere.

 

[heinz.friedrich]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for some advice on how to get started secular meditation. I like the idea of emptying my thoughts and the breathing exercises, but it's difficult to find videos helping to guide it. I think it could be a great way to reduce stress. I'm very put off by the spiritual angle that usually gets thrown into it, so Buddhist meditation is definitely not appropriate for me.

Any advice/tips?

What spiritual angle? You can practice every meditation without believing in higher powers. But you have to believe that it works, that is also why the placebo effect works. You have to have faith and the faith heals you.

You just dont advance that fast or at all without higher powers like you dont advance in science if you dont have teachers or books that teach you.

Some spiritual teachings also practice physical exercises that is basically sport. Sport reduces stress, too. (Tai chi, Hatha Yoga, or hermetics (Franz Bardon mentions some exercises) ).

Everything is part of spirituality or nothing. That depends how you see it.

 

[englad]

What spiritual angle? You can practice every meditation without believing in higher powers. But you have to believe that it works, that is also why the placebo effect works. You have to have faith and the faith heals you.

You just dont advance that fast or at all without higher powers like you dont advance in science if you dont have teachers or books that teach you.

Some spiritual teachings also practice physical exercises that is basically sport. Sport reduces stress, too. (Tai chi, Hatha Yoga, or hermetics (Franz Bardon mentions some exercises) ).

Everything is part of spirituality or nothing. That depends how you see it.

It isn't based on faith though. Deep breathing exercises have a lot of scientific evidence backing up their efficacy. That's why I'm interested in them.

 

[heinz.friedrich]

It isn't based on faith though. Deep breathing exercises have a lot of scientific evidence backing up their efficacy. That's why I'm interested in them.

Strange, you did not need proof from Tight-and juicy, so I dont think that it is proof that you need.

All of the mentioned excercises are backed by science. Do I have to search for you to believe it?

Furthermore:
The placebo effect is a scientific concept. And faith is meant in this context. You basically programm your unconsciousness to become calmer.

I dont exactly know what you want to know, because if you google secular meditation you find mainly Buddhist meditations and that is what you do not want. But those are the meditation that are backed by science.

 

[heinz.friedrich]

Strange, you did not need proof from Tight-and juicy, so I dont think that it is proof that you need.

@englad Some of it is even against the current data inscience. Which you did not even notice. That is how much you care for science.

So, I ritualize my self care time with marijuana and music. Bong hits are like medicated breathing exercises for me.

Science does not suggest marijuana use for stress at the moment and I doubt that this will change: On the contrary:

Cannabis use, acutely and chronically, alters multiple stress response systems, and long-term use may lead to significant changes that promote maintenance of use, as well as dependence. Evidence to-date, while limited, suggests this may lead to an overall adverse effect on the stress response system. Research on the role of vulnerability factors (e.g., early life adversity), sex, and pregnancy, in the impact of cannabis use on stress and emotion regulation is lacking. Identification of the eCB system as a potential mechanism and regulator of the effects of stress and cannabis is important and has implications in the context of substance misuse and other stress-related disorders, including, posttraumatic stress disorder, depression, and other psychological disorders.

Impact of Acute and Chronic Cannabis Use on Stress Response Regulation: Challenging the Belief That Cannabis Is an Effective Method for Coping

Music also mentioned by tight and juicy can help but it has to be the correct kind of music:

Listening to classical and self-selected relaxing music after exposure to a stressor should result in significant reductions in anxiety, anger, and sympathetic nervous system arousal, and increased relaxation compared to those who sit in silence or listen to heavy metal music.

However, some types of music may actually increase negative emotions and sympathetic nervous system arousal; this differential effect of music in young people has notbeen adequately tested.

Coping with Stress: The Effectiveness of Different Types of Music - Applied Psychophysiology and Biofeedback

Rituals also mentioned can help, but it is also the believe in the rituals:

Rituals can reduce anxiety and stress, and help us connect to our values. Research suggests that rituals can help to reduce anxiety symptoms and stress associated with uncertainty.

The Rich Benefits of Rituals: Rites of Passage for Wellbeing.

 

[Tight_N_Juicy]

@englad Some of it is even against the current data inscience. Which you did not even notice. That is how much you care for science.


Science does not suggest marijuana use for stress at the moment and I doubt that this will change: On the contrary:

Impact of Acute and Chronic Cannabis Use on Stress Response Regulation: Challenging the Belief That Cannabis Is an Effective Method for Coping

Music also mentioned by tight and juicy can help but it has to be the correct kind of music:



Coping with Stress: The Effectiveness of Different Types of Music - Applied Psychophysiology and Biofeedback

Rituals also mentioned can help, but it is also the believe in the rituals:


The Rich Benefits of Rituals: Rites of Passage for Wellbeing.

I worked in the industry for over 5 years as a medical patient consultant, I don't need anything about cannabis explained to me.

The correct kind of music? Please stop telling me (through your advice to the OP) that I'm doing it wrong. My way works for me. If it doesn't work for you, don't do it.

I was just sharing my experience. I'm not going to tell you your methods are incorrect if they in fact work for you.

The "science" on meditation is not like the science of physics. Or chemistry. There are in fact anomalies. Not everyone is exactly the same in any way, so there are variables you're not accounting for with your "advice".

 

[Tight_N_Juicy]

Strange, you did not need proof from Tight-and juicy, so I dont think that it is proof that you need.

All of the mentioned excercises are backed by science. Do I have to search for you to believe it?

Furthermore:
The placebo effect is a scientific concept. And faith is meant in this context. You basically programm your unconsciousness to become calmer.

I dont exactly know what you want to know, because if you google secular meditation you find mainly Buddhist meditations and that is what you do not want. But those are the meditation that are backed by science.

You seem offended by my post or something, or the fact that the OP seemed to appreciate it.

I'm not saying my way works for everyone, not at all. The exact opposite actually. So, why do I sense your irritation at my words?

There's just a passive aggressive tone about it. Correct me if I'm wrong

 

[englad]

Strange, you did not need proof from Tight-and juicy, so I dont think that it is proof that you need.

All of the mentioned excercises are backed by science. Do I have to search for you to believe it?

Furthermore:
The placebo effect is a scientific concept. And faith is meant in this context. You basically programm your unconsciousness to become calmer.

I dont exactly know what you want to know, because if you google secular meditation you find mainly Buddhist meditations and that is what you do not want. But those are the meditation that are backed by science.

I think it's quite simply that I could tell that @Tight_N_Juicy 's advice came from what works for her personally, and it's very much non-spiritual and secular (and that's what I asked for). Some of it could apply to me very well (secular angle, finding your centre, nature and ritual focus), some of it occasionally well and occasionally not so well (cannabis, I'm an on off user with a recent few months on due to bereavement and just entering an indefinite break for some extra mental clarity), and other parts just don't apply to me personally (I don't think I could personally enter a deep sense of relaxation with very loud music). So essentially, I can take some tips from her personal methods. I feel that you, on the other hand, are still pushing the spiritual side of meditation, which I've been clear in stating that I'm not interested in it because I find it very off putting.

I think believing that meditation can work for you personally does play a role, but then again, it's well known that deep breathing exercises alleviate stress. One other method I could use is in activating the mammalian dive reflex by simply sticking my head underwater, which gives the same results as meditation and mindfulness (slower heart rate, deeper breathing due to holding your breath and it blocks out a lot of noise making it very peaceful). It's just you can only do that for half a minute or so at a time, and It's hardly very practical. I think the links between a state of deep relaxation and the mammalian dive reflex are more strongly linked than the placebo effect.

Science backs up all forms of deep relaxation (including Buddhist meditation and the mammalian dive reflex), not just Buddhist meditation, which I've been quite explicit in not being interested in. The reason why is (frankly and absolutely no offence meant to anyone who is Buddhist, you do you) I think Buddhism is bollocks. I don't believe in reincarnation, achieving "enlightenment", spirituality and I don't think its focus on linking desire with suffering is healthy at all.

To provide an analogy, it sounds like you're giving advice to a vegan who's trying to increase their protein intake for better exercise performance and muscle mass building and looking for tips on how to do that in a plant based diet, by constantly repeating "why don't you just have a steak and cheese sandwich?"

 

[MisterB]

I too have ways of meditating/centering myself or as I call it, finding my bliss, that have nothing at all to do with religion or spirituality or anything else I've tried to consciously ascribe to the whys and wherefores.

All I know is that I've tried a lot of different things over my life, and I know what works for me. For example:

I find singing while soaking in the bathtub feels quite natural to me. Whatever randomly pops into my head. And I always feel better after I've done that.

I find that driving a few hours solo can also be quite cathartic. Freeing if you will. Just me and the radio, my thoughts and the open road. While I may be physically tired from driving, my mental state is always better than before the drive.

I find that listening to vocalists whom I enjoy can really send me into a deep trance. It's why I converted a former screened porch into a year-round music room. I've got the surround system, comfy chair with ottoman, and quite the eclectic mix of different artists I enjoy. That's pure bliss to me!

I find that spending time with the kids can be completely mind-resetting for me. Nothing like being in their world and experiencing things from their perspective.

Bottom line is whatever one finds works for oneself is what's important. It's amazing how we are all alike in a lot of ways yet have distinct differences.

Just because someone chooses to find their bliss in a different way from me doesn't mean they are wrong.
Doesn't work for you? Great!

I just find it unnecessary for anyone to judge someone about this; it's just not anyone's business how anyone other than you gets their bliss on!

 

[englad]

Update. Started doing fitbit's mindfulness exercises and they work nicely. They're also completely secular, which is what I wanted.

 

[dreambridger]

It doesn't necessarily have to be a silent meditation. Sometimes it's nice to go into the forest and pay attention to the sounds of insects and birds, trying to identify the individual sounds and seeing if you can hear them and respect them all at once as a harmony. That's kind of my main meditation practice these days, to go outside and try to listen to this hidden music of nature.

if you're seeking silent, closed-eye meditations, i would say that mantras do help. You don't have to be a buddhist to appreciate the vibrations of OM or LAHM, you can see those things as simply tools. I approach even icons that way. I consider myself free from any cult large or small, but I have no qualms with observing a Shiva shrine as a representation of the awe of infinity. Either way, I don't think being secular should restrict you from using the tools that nonsecular people have developed, it's all "whatever you want it to be" to use a hippie cliche. These are all just tools, and dogma is extracurricular.

For me, i did closed-eye stuff and experimented with mantras and icons in the past, these days though i really do just tend to stick with the first paragraph. I like outdoor, open-eye meditations, barefeet on moss, and just listening and observing and feeling that rhythm of nature sounds.

 

[heinz.friedrich]

I worked in the industry for over 5 years as a medical patient consultant, I don't need anything about cannabis explained to me.

That is an autoritarian argument and a logical flaw. I stated a study that says it is harmful.

You answered, you worked as a medical patient consultant and they also did it wrong and that should overwrite the results of the studies that cannabis use is harmful on the long run?

Science is if you can prove that the studies are wrong.

The correct kind of music? Please stop telling me (through your advice to the OP) that I'm doing it wrong. My way works for me. If it doesn't work for you, don't do it.

But it does not for others and you are giving advise in a public forum. And that could harm others like your cannabis advise. Do you see that?

I was just sharing my experience. I'm not going to tell you your methods are incorrect if they in fact work for you.

Yes and there is nothing wrong with it. But there are other that read your post and it does not work for them, because on average, some kind of music is harmful.

The "science" on meditation is not like the science of physics. Or chemistry. There are in fact anomalies. Not everyone is exactly the same in any way, so there are variables you're not accounting for with your "advice".

You seem offended by my post or something, or the fact that the OP seemed to appreciate it.

I'm not saying my way works for everyone, not at all. The exact opposite actually. So, why do I sense your irritation at my words?

There's just a passive aggressive tone about it. Correct me if I'm wrong

I am offended if people giving wrong advise. And the like of @englad to you shows that he is also not interested in science. Contrary what he says. He says he is interested in science and your advise is against science.


If the studies shows you are wrong, you are probably wrong. Except if you can prove that the studies are wrong.

It does not matter how many likes you and @englad give each other. It is just a sign that you both are wrong. It is harmful to like your post, because cannabis use is harmful. I quote the important parts of the link:

Stress and cannabis use likely have a bidirectional relationship, such that stress likely promotes and maintains cannabis use, while cannabis use likely alters stress responses both acutely and chronically in ways that may, ultimately in the long-term, increase perceived stress and risk for anxiety and depression (Rubino et al., 2008; Hyman and Sinha, 2009; Delforterie et al., 2015; Blanco et al., 2016; Borges et al., 2016; Danielsson et al., 2016; Feingold et al., 2016; Di Forti et al., 2019; Gobbi et al., 2019; Hosseini and Oremus, 2019; Scherma et al., 2020; Xue et al., 2021). This indicates that cannabis, deceptive perceptions to the contrary, may not be an effective coping mechanism for stress.

Impact of Acute and Chronic Cannabis Use on Stress Response Regulation: Challenging the Belief That Cannabis Is an Effective Method for Coping

 

[heinz.friedrich]

I think it's quite simply that I could tell that @Tight_N_Juicy 's advice came from what works for her personally, and it's very much non-spiritual and secular (and that's what I asked for).

And you do not care that it could be harmful for others or the most people that can read your advise on this discussion board?

ome of it could apply to me very well (secular angle, finding your centre, nature and ritual focus), some of it occasionally well and occasionally not so well (cannabis, I'm an on off user with a recent few months on due to bereavement and just entering an indefinite break for some extra mental clarity), and other parts just don't apply to me personally (I don't think I could personally enter a deep sense of relaxation with very loud music). So essentially, I can take some tips from her personal methods. I feel that you, on the other hand, are still pushing the spiritual side of meditation, which I've been clear in stating that I'm not interested in it because I find it very off putting.

I push both science and spirituality. If a spiritual practice is backed by science, you can assume the spirituality is correct in this regard.

Buddhist meditation and Hindu meditation has been proven right in some regard and harmful in regard to some rare meditation. Dr. K (healthygamers) talked about that a lot. He also is a scientist and believes in science first. If you are interested in the scientific part of meditation.

So you dont seem to care that cannabis harms others on the long run? You just made the same experience because you are an off user but you say that is because it does not help you personally?

This indicates that cannabis, deceptive perceptions to the contrary, may not be an effective coping mechanism for stress.

Impact of Acute and Chronic Cannabis Use on Stress Response Regulation: Challenging the Belief That Cannabis Is an Effective Method for Coping

Update. Started doing fitbit's mindfulness exercises and they work nicely. They're also completely secular, which is what I wanted.

Those meditation exist in spiritual practices since centuries probably millenias. They are called secular after some practices are proven to be helpful.

Mindfulness is not anything new. Buddhist practices can be called both spiritual and atheistic, because you can be an atheist and a Buddhist. But they come from centuries of spiritual practices.

And if you are interested in experiences in contrast to meditation backed by science, I dont understand why you reject the spiritual experience, because that is nothing else than an experience of an atheist.

 

[Tight_N_Juicy]

That is an autoritarian argument and a logical flaw. I stated a study that says it is harmful.

You answered, you worked as a medical patient consultant and they also did it wrong and that should overwrite the results of the studies that cannabis use is harmful on the long run?

Science is if you can prove that the studies are wrong.


But it does not for others and you are giving advise in a public forum. And that could harm others like your cannabis advise. Do you see that?


Yes and there is nothing wrong with it. But there are other that read your post and it does not work for them, because on average, some kind of music is harmful.



I am offended if people giving wrong advise. And the like of @englad to you shows that he is also not interested in science. Contrary what he says. He says he is interested in science and your advise is against science.


If the studies shows you are wrong, you are probably wrong. Except if you can prove that the studies are wrong.

It does not matter how many likes you and @englad give each other. It is just a sign that you both are wrong. It is harmful to like your post, because cannabis use is harmful. I quote the important parts of the link:


Impact of Acute and Chronic Cannabis Use on Stress Response Regulation: Challenging the Belief That Cannabis Is an Effective Method for Coping

Ok bruh.

Have a nice day.

I'm gonna go smoke some weed now.