Semenya's Gender Test Results Are In

Discussion in 'Women's Issues' started by Principessa, Sep 11, 2009.

  1. Principessa

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    Semenya's Gender Test Results Are In
    Caster Semenya, appears as girly mag cover model

    I'm surprised there hasn't been a thread about this yet. :confused: I've been watching this story unfold for weeks and have to say I am not surprised at the outcome of Miss Semenya being a hermaphrodite. I don't think they have a right to strip her of her previous wins/titles. What I find truly bizarre is that this was never an issue before now. :eek: I mean look at her! She looks like a man, from head to toe. She might have a vagina, but she has no breasts. :frown1: I'm flat chested. I wore those teen charm bras until I was about 21, but I always had a girly figure. Physically Miss Semenya appears male. I find it very strange no one noticed or cared until now. :confused::eek:It's a shame that this may end her atheltic career. :frown1: But she clearly has an unfair advantage over 'real women'. Before y'all jump down my throat I have chosen to define a woman as someone who was born with female genitalia and female reproductive organs. Apparently Miss Semenya has a vulva but no female reproductive organs. She does however, have testes which produce large quantities of testosterone. I would like to know how her testosterone levels compare to those of a male athlete of the same height and weight. Not sure it matters as she wouldn't be able to compete as a male either. But I am curious.
     
  2. Symphonic

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    There was.
     
  3. Industrialsize

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  4. YBNB

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    It's all in the name.
     
  5. MickeyLee

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    she is an intersexed person and has chosen to live her life as a female.

    as far as breasts? show me one set of double DD sporting a gold medal. the body fat levels of professional runners are so low that menses and breasts are usually a thing of the past when competing at an Olympic level.

    all though, kudos to science for furthering bigotry and a binary gender system :irked:
     
  6. B_mitchymo

    B_mitchymo New Member

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    I have to wonder that if she is considered to have an advantage over other women because of her testosterone levels then how could it be considered fair for anyone to compete against those with higher levels. Will we see a future regulation where athletes are banded for fairness like in boxing? It seems unfair for this woman if her athletic career is jeopardised but unfair to be competing with an obvious advantage so what will happen next? Maybe if she has corrective surgery assuming the results prove masculine influence then the problem is solved.
     
  7. Symphonic

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    Gender? This is sex, hands down, it's not about whether she's a "she" at all. It's about whether biologically the body is producing hormones that give her an unfair edge, albeit it probably wouldn't be a deciding factor in her victory from the looks of the race itself. It's not like she won by 20 seconds.
     
  8. Symphonic

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    Corrective surgery? Of what? Are you going to install ovaries?
     
  9. B_mitchymo

    B_mitchymo New Member

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    No, remove the testes, as long as she has no male parts it does'nt matter if she is lacking female ones.
     
  10. StrictlyAvg

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    Upfront, as I said in my original thread this whole thing is a travesty to what should be medical privacy and sensitivity.

    This has history, the Indian athlete in question tried to commit suicide after the public controversy over her gender BBC SPORT | Athletics | Semenya 'must not be humiliated'


    But in spite of all that I can't help laughing at the anagram they've come up with : Yes, a secret man
     
  11. D_Claude Hopper

    D_Claude Hopper New Member

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    I think that they showed Her to have testosterone levels within female ranges in another test (sorry, no citation, but i know i read it). I would never consider removing Her medal. I don't think she was knowing of her own intersex nature - and thereby not cheating because of it. Further, with the thrust into the spotlight over the matter, I think She's dealt with enough.
     
  12. Industrialsize

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    The newest movement of people who are born intersexed is to state they do NOT need corrective surgery. They believe that their "state" is a naturally occurring part of the gender spectrum. They have a movement to NOT have intersexed children operated on and to leave the decision to the child when they come of age. Some choose surgery, a growin number prefer to remain interseed. Almost all intersexed childern that are surgically, are altered to be female as the surgery is more succesful than trying to create a penis. Even if the child has internal testes.
     
  13. Symphonic

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    It matters. Not producing either is a medical condition for a reason.

    The funny thing is that intersexuality is not a gender. Androgyny can be a gender, intersexual status is a sex, and it is naturally occurring so it is natural, but most intersexual persons are not androgynous in gender, for instance our host here chooses to live as a female, or may be wired as a female since that in and of itself in neurological explorations seems to be hard-coded in humans. One of the primary reasons why "choosing" for the intersexed is dangerous is because of this hard-coding, if an intersexed person identifies as one of the two genders but has the inability to live as that gender mental trauma and declined health are a result.
     
    #13 Symphonic, Sep 11, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2009
  14. MickeyLee

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    okay... yeah, gotcha.... umm binary sex paradigm?
     
  15. bigbull29

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    I feel sorry for her, but being intersexed disqualifies her. She has an unfair advantage. Those "real" women train their whole lives for this and then are beaten by someone who is not technically a woman (this is all coming from someone who could give a rat's ass about sports, competitions, etc...so beyond that shit:biggrin1:)

    I don't treat intersexed people any differently than anyone else. I think the discrimination they've endured over time has been MOST tragic. But in a sport's competition, the masculine traits make things unfair in a competition with real women. She had to have known that she had abnormal masculine characteristics for a woman (common sense).
     
    #15 bigbull29, Sep 11, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2009
  16. Symphonic

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    It kind of is binary. Intersexual persons are not common, and while not looked down upon as a defect these days it is medically an abnormality.

    Yet, let's fight the power anyway!
    +
    =

    No sense. That's like saying a transsexual who's gone through surgery and is hormonally female is not female. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Your removing the actual cause of crisis and implementing the cause of confusion instead. The problem lies in the fact that her body produces more testosterone than estrogen, you don't have to be intersexed to have that condition and the "unfair advantage"; to be honest her intersexual status has little to nothing to really do with this. The only argument that presents a problem is the fact that she has internal testes which means she just has a more direct means of testosterone production versus an actual error in her hormonal system that can be treated.

    Which is ironic because I just saw the one word that nullifies 100% of any an all sympathy you might "share":

    No, she didn't, because apparently you really aren't into sports. Look at women who run and jump and play that hard, they have "masculine" traits, and unless our girl here is growing a beard she's not showing anything abnormal. Now I would understand if she had hair on her chest but something tells me you might want to try actually just doing a little research. Hell, Google "Female Athlete", see how "feminine" you're going to hold them; in general they all look the same, with no menses and no tits to be see, and no real body fat. The differential is in their skeletal builds alone.
     
    #16 Symphonic, Sep 11, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2009
  17. TroMag

    TroMag New Member

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    Right, this is why we break competitions into male and female classes. So ideally, there should be an intersexed class, reflecting the fact that there are more than two sexes.
     
  18. bigbull29

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    Ok, but still she can't compete with other women when have unnatural amounts of testosterone "running" their her veins. That puts her in a league of her own. Compete with the boys!

    No, I don't treat intersexed people differently, but can I compete with women as a male? No. There is no discrimination here whatsoever.
     
  19. D_Gunther Snotpole

    D_Gunther Snotpole Account Disabled

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    Even among professional female runners, she stood out as having a very exceptionally masculine physique.
    Just sayin'.
    I sympathize with her, but ...


    This has nothing to do with bigotry, imo.
    With very rare exceptions, we have a binary gender system in human life.
    And sports are operated according to it.
    She has ... what? four times the testosterone that women usually produce?
    That just doesn't allow a level playing field.


    Some races she has won by large margins.
    And where she has won by narrow margins, we can assume she wouldn't have been in the running at all without the huge leg up offered by her hormonal advantage over the other runners.
    [That sentence was accidentally directed here from Bad Pun City ... sorry!]
    I think it's a big deciding factor, personally.


    I don't grasp the difference between 'sex' and 'gender' as you use them.
    Can you explain.
    Maybe it's obvious, but I just don't get it, Symphonic.



    I'm much clearer about what 'androgyny' would look like in a man than a woman.
    In a man, it means that he has an unusual degree of feminine tone and gesture, or something like that.
    I would have thought that Semenya has an unusual degree of masculine tone and gesture.
    So, I would have said that she is indeed androgynous.
    What do you say?
    Maybe I'm just using words differently.


    I have to agree.
    I don't know if her past victories should be retroactively taken away ... but she shouldn't be able to compete in the future.
    That would be rough on her, but there's that huge issue of fairness for the other, less 'advantaged' athletes.
     
  20. Symphonic

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    That's questionable, because as I said intersexuality isn't necessary; your body will naturally produce what you need which means testosterone levels in female athletes are already higher. She has to be really up there in order to make a difference.
    Thing is our intersexed friend is not a male, your hormones coursing through your veins are a secondary characteristic, not a primary characteristic, which means basically you're not a boy because you have more testosterone than estrogen after birth, and vice versa, women with low estrogen do not magically become men.

    There's an extreme amount of discrimination present because you're not focusing on the issue and you are pushing that intersexuality inherently disqualifies her without the faintest solidified reasoning. If she was intersexual and produced tons of estrogen and ran with the boys and won there would be no controversy, and for the record quite a few female athletes can keep up with most of their male counterparts; though the bodies are different the peaks are as well and peaks are dependent on more than sex and hormones.
     
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